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Hagen0
Germany765 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 11 2014 10:52 BallinWitStalin wrote: Sorry to bother you guys so much with such niche questions, but I have another legacy burn question. Leyline seems like its pretty much the be-all-end-all red hoser. In a leyline heavy metagame, why wouldn't burn players run a single taiga main, with destructive revelry in the sideboard? Destructive revelry seems pretty decent, and can even substitute for a smash to smithereens in a pinch, and offers red the only shot at enchantment destruction it has outside apocalypse. If you're running lavamancers (which seem awesome when there's so many delvers flying around), you're probably running eight fetches anyways. Why not bump that up to ten fetches, after which you've pretty much got reliable access to your one green mana to cast the revelry if u need it. The only downside I see is taking two damage from your own PoP. While two damage may matter in the rare game, I guarantee that leylines matter every single game they're played against a burn deck. So why not? Common burn spells that don't care about Leyline Flame Rift Price of Progress Searing Blood Sulfuric Vortex Creatures Searing Blood, not so much. But assuming you have stock lists which usually have 8 Flame Rift/Price of Progress, 2-4 sulfuric vortex, and 10-12 Creatures main (sometimes as high as 16 if you use Spark Elemental) then that means that 20-26 of your 40-42 burn spells outright ignore Leyline of Sanctity. Versus creature heavy lists, use bolts and chain lightnings to clear blockers. Versus spell (blue) heavy lists, use red blasts to go aggro control as you beat down with goblin guides and eidolons. This doesn't mean that Leyline is a cakewalk you can ignore, much like a turn 2 circle of protection red, it will win most game it resolves without being dealt with. The efficiency argument is also not true. Running the 1-4 duals to be able to cast Revelry/wear&tear/etc... will mean you will lose some games because you naturally drew basics and something like wasteland thalia locks you out, or RUG gets his waste+stifle engine going, etc... The question is if it is worth losing some games to wasteland decks to have a better game 2 or game 3 vs decks that *might* have sideboard cards against you like Leyline as opposed to just depending on lifegain or being a faster combo. I think its worth it, but its something to think about it. Its not objectively better to do it. | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
On October 12 2014 01:48 Thieving Magpie wrote: Common burn spells that don't care about Leyline Flame Rift Price of Progress Searing Blood Sulfuric Vortex Creatures Searing Blood, not so much. But assuming you have stock lists which usually have 8 Flame Rift/Price of Progress, 2-4 sulfuric vortex, and 10-12 Creatures main (sometimes as high as 16 if you use Spark Elemental) then that means that 20-26 of your 40-42 burn spells outright ignore Leyline of Sanctity. Versus creature heavy lists, use bolts and chain lightnings to clear blockers. Versus spell (blue) heavy lists, use red blasts to go aggro control as you beat down with goblin guides and eidolons. This doesn't mean that Leyline is a cakewalk you can ignore, much like a turn 2 circle of protection red, it will win most game it resolves without being dealt with. The efficiency argument is also not true. Running the 1-4 duals to be able to cast Revelry/wear&tear/etc... will mean you will lose some games because you naturally drew basics and something like wasteland thalia locks you out, or RUG gets his waste+stifle engine going, etc... The question is if it is worth losing some games to wasteland decks to have a better game 2 or game 3 vs decks that *might* have sideboard cards against you like Leyline as opposed to just depending on lifegain or being a faster combo. I think its worth it, but its something to think about it. Its not objectively better to do it. Well, I got rid of flame rift and replaced it with eidolon, which I think is what a lot of people did. I kept Searing blaze maindeck. With so many delvers, deathrites, and (to a lesser extent) goyfs running around, it's just got so much utility that I felt like I wanted it main. I am running 20 spells that are stopped dead by leylines, and I also run 3 lavamancers main. While they somewhat get around leyline being creatures and are useful for board control, not being able to ping opponents is a definite downside to them (attacking for 1 with a lavamancer blows). So as it stands I only have 18 spells that get around leyline (only got 2 maindeck sulphuric vortexes), with another three lavamancers that sort-of (poorlyish) get around it, although pinging opponents is typically not their main role anyways (but it seems good to note that if I have 20 burn spells to throw at creatures anyways, they're pretty redundant and semi-dead cards in that circumstance). I hadn't thought about wasteland, but I only think I would run a single taiga so the likelihood of drawing it randomly seems low. Haven't yet played against the type of RUG deck you mentioned, I will have to read up on it and think about it. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 12 2014 04:05 BallinWitStalin wrote: Well, I got rid of flame rift and replaced it with eidolon, which I think is what a lot of people did. I kept Searing blaze maindeck. With so many delvers, deathrites, and (to a lesser extent) goyfs running around, it's just got so much utility that I felt like I wanted it main. I am running 20 spells that are stopped dead by leylines, and I also run 3 lavamancers main. While they somewhat get around leyline being creatures and are useful for board control, not being able to ping opponents is a definite downside to them (attacking for 1 with a lavamancer blows). So as it stands I only have 18 spells that get around leyline (only got 2 maindeck sulphuric vortexes), with another three lavamancers that sort-of (poorlyish) get around it, although pinging opponents is typically not their main role anyways (but it seems good to note that if I have 20 burn spells to throw at creatures anyways, they're pretty redundant and semi-dead cards in that circumstance). I hadn't thought about wasteland, but I only think I would run a single taiga so the likelihood of drawing it randomly seems low. Haven't yet played against the type of RUG deck you mentioned, I will have to read up on it and think about it. I personally feel splashing is better. I you don't plan to splash, you either accept that leyline is autolose, or you build your deck to be less susceptible to leyline. Which means cards like Keldon Marauders and Spark Elemental. If you have money to spare, splashing should definitely be done. This is most important to people who run burn as a "budget" deck and hence can't afford duals or fetches. | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:26 Judicator wrote: That UB deck just looks so iffy at times. Ya, it's certainly not a deck that anyone can just pick up and play. I feel like you need to be both a very good player and have A LOT of experience with the deck. I expect a lot of people to just start playing it and get crushed. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On October 12 2014 23:46 DEN1ED wrote: Ya, it's certainly not a deck that anyone can just pick up and play. I feel like you need to be both a very good player and have A LOT of experience with the deck. I expect a lot of people to just start playing it and get crushed. I played Esper yesterday after my friend audibled to Jeskai and let me use his elspeths. Esper is much safer and much more consistent. Only problem I feel is your jeskai match up. Abzan is a walk over. UW is easy due to your easy planeswalker removal and post board access to thoughtseize. UB is difficult but your threats are just better than theirs. Jeskai just dumpsters you with efficient creatures backed up with mindswipe and burn. You literally feel one turn to slow in the match up. Mono red and Mono black are stupid good match ups too. Idk I was running 4 last breath main but I feel those should just be Nyx fleece rams and the 3 open slots should be more efficient counter magic and stuff for jeskai like stubborn denial or gainsay. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
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Slardar
Canada7596 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 13 2014 00:39 deth2munkies wrote: I think in order for Abzan to beat U/B or Esper, they're probably going to have to run some Stain the Minds sideboard. Especially against U/B, Thoughtseize into Stain on Pearl Lake Ancient just wins. I honestly don't think the match is that bad, you have high impact cards, they don't (they really don't). As for control, I am pretty sure Wizards has pushed the archetype completely into the ramp deck zone. To explain, you have to draw the appropriate answer cards as your opponent plays their threats. Now it use to be Mana Leak that allowed you to kind of a 2 mana catch all that kept you safe, now we have nothing, 3 mana counters are more for stable boards, not in the early stages, and definitely not for on the draw. That's the same exact dilemma ramp decks had for a long time before Kessig Wolf Run where the ramp deck needs to draw their ramp cards and then play their big threats ahead of the mana curve. Likewise, for control, the decks need to draw the right answer and then play their threats, otherwise you just kind of lose control and the game. Like once you fall behind, you fall behind for good since the creatures have gotten so good over the years (that matters far more than losing 2 mana countermagic). It's like sweet I am holding 7 cards, but I neither have the mana nor the board state to take advantage of it. This is why I thoroughly enjoyed Planar Cleansing versions of UW from the previous standard and always thought it was the more consistent control deck. Likewise, this is also why I think BUG is the better control deck over pure UB, although the Perilous Vault version seems to be at least competitive since if your draws don't go as plan, you have a back up board reset plan. Maybe the best version (for now at least) is UBg with a very minor Green splash for Sultai Charm and possibly Garruk or Sagu Mauler with Perilous Vaults. | ||
micronesia
United States24780 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On October 13 2014 07:35 Judicator wrote: I honestly don't think the match is that bad, you have high impact cards, they don't (they really don't). As for control, I am pretty sure Wizards has pushed the archetype completely into the ramp deck zone. To explain, you have to draw the appropriate answer cards as your opponent plays their threats. Now it use to be Mana Leak that allowed you to kind of a 2 mana catch all that kept you safe, now we have nothing, 3 mana counters are more for stable boards, not in the early stages, and definitely not for on the draw. That's the same exact dilemma ramp decks had for a long time before Kessig Wolf Run where the ramp deck needs to draw their ramp cards and then play their big threats ahead of the mana curve. Likewise, for control, the decks need to draw the right answer and then play their threats, otherwise you just kind of lose control and the game. Like once you fall behind, you fall behind for good since the creatures have gotten so good over the years (that matters far more than losing 2 mana countermagic). It's like sweet I am holding 7 cards, but I neither have the mana nor the board state to take advantage of it. This is why I thoroughly enjoyed Planar Cleansing versions of UW from the previous standard and always thought it was the more consistent control deck. Likewise, this is also why I think BUG is the better control deck over pure UB, although the Perilous Vault version seems to be at least competitive since if your draws don't go as plan, you have a back up board reset plan. Maybe the best version (for now at least) is UBg with a very minor Green splash for Sultai Charm and possibly Garruk or Sagu Mauler with Perilous Vaults. The point is that if I fall behind, the best thing I can currently do is cast Sorin or Siege Rhino, which both do 1 thing and die to Perilous Vault or Hero's Downfall. If I bait the Vault activation or otherwise tap him low, then resolve a Stain the Mind (at least against the U/B list at the PT) I win the game, whereas resolving a Sorin is only a 2/2 and Rhino is only 3 life. | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
On October 13 2014 07:39 micronesia wrote: I encountered a weird mechanic when playing irl yesterday. My opponent used condemn on my attacking creature which had grafted wargear attached. Does the creature go to the graveyard or the bottom of my library? What is the reason? I could see an argument for both, having never encountered this before. Creature goes to the bottom. When condemn resolves creature gets put on bottom. Then the triggered ability from wargear goes on the stack. When that triggered ability resolves creature is already on bottom of library so you obviously can't sac it. Paul Reitzl was the one giving the speech about his grandpa to the person asking above. | ||
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On October 13 2014 07:39 micronesia wrote: I encountered a weird mechanic when playing irl yesterday. My opponent used condemn on my attacking creature which had grafted wargear attached. Does the creature go to the graveyard or the bottom of my library? What is the reason? I could see an argument for both, having never encountered this before. Condemn resolved. The creature is put onto the bottom of the library. Grafted Wargear then triggers. It now tries to resolve. There is no target for the trigger. The Grafted Wargear trigger fizzles due to lack of target. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17783 Posts
We think about playing it casually with a friend. Haven't touched magic for like 15 years or so but it's getting harder and harder to get 5 people together to play VTES on a regular basis so we might as well do some magic to kill time. | ||
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micronesia
United States24780 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 13 2014 07:39 micronesia wrote: I encountered a weird mechanic when playing irl yesterday. My opponent used condemn on my attacking creature which had grafted wargear attached. Does the creature go to the graveyard or the bottom of my library? What is the reason? I could see an argument for both, having never encountered this before. Library, Crafted Wargear's effect can't hit something that is no longer on the field. When Condemn resolves, the creature already in the library and wargear's effect isn't relevant at that point. Edit: @deth2munkies The point is that even if you fall behind, you have cards that win the game, UB not so much. It's that Sphinx's Revelation dilemma from last standard cycle, their spells will always be a threat against UB, especially post-board. Like the payoffs are heavily in favor of the Abzan player, your threats beats their spells simply because UB's spells doesn't win them the game if it gets through, yours do however. Simply put, the problem you are saying is just a typical mid range issue and not a match up one. Likewise, you can always steal the play from them with a turn 2 Carytid in Abzan. Stain the mind is just a crutch more than anything. | ||
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.AK
United States561 Posts
Congrats Ari Lax! Hell of a top 8 and super fun finals. Pro tour spoilers | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
On October 13 2014 11:10 .AK wrote: + Show Spoiler + Congrats Ari Lax! Hell of a top 8 and super fun finals. Pro tour spoilers Too bad he has extremely poor manners. Really sad to see throughout the weekend. | ||
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