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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 09 2014 01:08 Judicator wrote: Control is literally at its lowest point as it has ever been in a combo-less standard. Ivan might have won with UW, but I don't think people realize how well he ran in the top 8. I don't think that's a mistake though, marketing wise that is. "Good honest magic" is usually imagined by new comers as creatures turning sideways in a slow/non-rush based speed. Having a meta filled with rush/midranged decks and a few sprinklings of control is exactly what magic is already viewed as by laymen. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On August 09 2014 01:12 Thieving Magpie wrote: I don't think that's a mistake though, marketing wise that is. "Good honest magic" is usually imagined by new comers as creatures turning sideways in a slow/non-rush based speed. Having a meta filled with rush/midranged decks and a few sprinklings of control is exactly what magic is already viewed as by laymen. I mean I agree because Drownyard control decks were fun if you were a demented human being who happens to play Magic. Fun flavor-wise, but terrible spectating. The combat is now fun, its just from a deck building point of view, we're all attacking on the mid-range axis. That makes each deck feel the same despite different card combinations. Oh wells, we're not getting 2 mana counterspells back any time soon. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
E: I want a convoke counterspell although thats both off-colour and wayyyyy too dangerous to print lol. Maybe at 5 mana. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 07 2014 17:12 RoieTRS wrote: I started standard in Bornofthegods. The only blue control i've ever known is Sphinx's Revelation decks. Everyone complains about the card sphinx's revelation but how can a blue contrtol deck function without a card with that kind of power? I can't understand the hate I'm playing a semi-control deck on Gameday that Doesn't use Rev. It runs off counterspells, (Mostly thassa's rebuff, with negate , turn to frog and essence scatter as situational, and uses ornithopter as an engine for bouncing fliers | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On August 09 2014 01:18 Sn0_Man wrote: You'd think a pile of wraths and rev's is exactly where you'd want to be in a mid-rangy format chock full of dorky creatures but apparently not. E: I want a convoke counterspell although thats both off-colour and wayyyyy too dangerous to print lol. Maybe at 5 mana. That would make sense except 2 issues, just because your Rev doesn't mean you win, if the opposing player can pressure without overextending (which given the current quality of creatures, is not as hard as it use to be) then you are in a shitty position because you really don't have a 2-4 turn clock creature starting from turn 4. If you want to look at it this way, right now, if you got the answer to their threats as a control player, you have not won the game, even if you Rev for 3 or 4, you still might not win the game depending how well you traded on turns 1-3. Now the flip side of that coin is that if you don't have the answer and the recovery card like Rev or Jace/Elspeth, you're in so much trouble especially if your life is low. Like look at the GW vs UW match, game 2 mull to 5 from the GW player, still wins cause Ivan can't draw a win con or another Rev. Then some of the other games, if GW has the indestructible spell, then Ivan is even in more trouble and probably loses outright. TLDR; threats are diverse, can end games outright, UWx control really needs to run well to win consistently. | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On August 09 2014 01:08 Judicator wrote: Control is literally at its lowest point as it has ever been in a combo-less standard. this isn't true. From what I've heard about Alara/Zen Standard, control was pretty mediocre then, and the base white control decks when Mirrodin block were in standard were the only control decks and not very good. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On August 09 2014 09:35 Elyvilon wrote: this isn't true. From what I've heard about Alara/Zen Standard, control was pretty mediocre then, and the base white control decks when Mirrodin block were in standard were the only control decks and not very good. ?? UW with Baneslayer Angel was good, pre-Jace TMS maybe Jund or rather cascade was too good. I played right after Alara rotated out though, but the matchup looks very winnable since Spreading Seas on Jund's mana base looks like a beating, and then post Jace TMS I would say its very much winnable. The thing you need to understand isn't that UW versus Jund was difficult, its the fact that I would argue (just from browsing archtypes from back then) the format now is much more diverse than it was during Alara/Zen block. When you have one dominant archetype like Jund, that makes deck construction and tuning so much easier provided you have the tools which I would say UW definitely had once TMS was printed. Compare that to the current standard, UW doesn't nearly have the same tools, you're getting attacked on turns 1-3 from so many different angles that turns 4-6 are putting you on a very short clock to both stabilize and get on the offensive. Mirrodin block had a very strong control deck prior to affinity, and affinity did really push pretty everything else to the margins. | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On August 09 2014 14:00 Judicator wrote: ?? UW with Baneslayer Angel was good, pre-Jace TMS maybe Jund or rather cascade was too good. I played right after Alara rotated out though, but the matchup looks very winnable since Spreading Seas on Jund's mana base looks like a beating, and then post Jace TMS I would say its very much winnable. The thing you need to understand isn't that UW versus Jund was difficult, its the fact that I would argue (just from browsing archtypes from back then) the format now is much more diverse than it was during Alara/Zen block. When you have one dominant archetype like Jund, that makes deck construction and tuning so much easier provided you have the tools which I would say UW definitely had once TMS was printed. Compare that to the current standard, UW doesn't nearly have the same tools, you're getting attacked on turns 1-3 from so many different angles that turns 4-6 are putting you on a very short clock to both stabilize and get on the offensive. Thanks; Alara/Zen was one of my hiatuses from Magic so I don't really know what existed, just that what I heard was that Jund was a very bad matchup for control because the entire deck is 2 for 1s and the control decks couldn't handle it. Mirrodin block had a very strong control deck prior to affinity, and affinity did really push pretty everything else to the margins. Well Goblins and Tooth stayed around as decks after Darksteel as well, and both were better than the MWC deck. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
Also Jace didn't immediately take over Standard precisely because of BBE in Jund. A bunch of things happened to hurt Jund's dominance. Part of it was everybody gunning for it, but ROE and M11 didn't help Jund nearly as much as the other major decks. The nail in the coffin was probably Primeval Titan, since Valakut preyed on all the midrangey creature decks, but Wall of Omens, Vengevine and Gideon certainly didn't help. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
Once Alara rotated out, UW was left in a position with no real threats, as everything else was either going big with Prime Time + Valakut or going for Eldrazi of some kind, and Mana Leak is just an insane card in a midrange format. They just didn't have any real major threat/win-con at the time outside of sticking a Basilisk Collar on a Mystic or Squadron Hawk. Once the Scars Swords of X and Y were introduced (specifically Feast and Famine) Caw Blade came into it's true power, and Batterskull in New Phyrexia just made it go Super Saiyan. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
Nobody really messed with UW much immediately after Scars. Path and Oblivion Ring rotated, while Grave Titan + Inquisition of Kozilek + Doom Blade made UB a lot more compelling. That said, before Mirrodin Besieged, Kibler and Brad Nelson played UW Caw-Go at Worlds; a lot of their innovations from that deck formed the basis of the deck CFB played at Paris- namely Squadron Hawk as a way to gain card advantage/shuffle for Jace/pressure opposing Jaces; the full set of Spell Pierces (shaving Mana Leak) to win fights over Jace and get ahead in tempo otherwise; and the full playset of Preordain. Jace, Colonnade and Gideon were plenty of win conditions without having to spend slots on a dedicated win condition. After Paris, some CFB members did say that Sword of Feast and Famine mostly just forced them to notice Stoneforge Mystic, and that Stoneforge for Sword of Body and Mind probably would have been good enough pre-Mirrodin Besieged to make Caw-Go the best deck in that format. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
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Cixah
United States11285 Posts
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GoSuNamhciR
126 Posts
On August 08 2014 20:05 RoieTRS wrote: I think creatures is the most boring way to win in the game Non-interactive creatures are. Creatures with a lot of ETB and triggered effects are extremely fun. For instance goblins is my favorite legacy deck (even if it has dropped down to tier 1.5 in the last few years) because its one of only 2 control decks in legacy. It has the best card draw, tied for best land denial and has a ton of interactions with their ETB creatures. However I am playing burn currently in legacy (not very fun of a deck but powerful/cheap and performing very well right now) and building up to a miracles deck. Just need to get 3 Tundras and a few more fetches and my list is done. But yes, standard sucks horribly because of how non-interactive it is. Almost every deck is about turning sideways or just not interacting at all. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On August 11 2014 16:25 GoSuNamhciR wrote: Non-interactive creatures are. Creatures with a lot of ETB and triggered effects are extremely fun. For instance goblins is my favorite legacy deck (even if it has dropped down to tier 1.5 in the last few years) because its one of only 2 control decks in legacy. It has the best card draw, tied for best land denial and has a ton of interactions with their ETB creatures. However I am playing burn currently in legacy (not very fun of a deck but powerful/cheap and performing very well right now) and building up to a miracles deck. Just need to get 3 Tundras and a few more fetches and my list is done. But yes, standard sucks horribly because of how non-interactive it is. Almost every deck is about turning sideways or just not interacting at all. Mmmmmmmh... I....... Can't even fathom the retardness. There wasn't a single non-interactive deck in the PT Top 8 (maybe GW if you go full-retard in what you call non-interactive). | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
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Cixah
United States11285 Posts
Things that I didn't like from this block mostly revolved around Pack Rat and Obzadat and Blood Baron. I love playing black white, but these cards just are too damn powerful for their own good. Ban worthy not so much, but strong enough to completely cripple a meta when paired with Black's insanely powerful discard trope yes. | ||
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
On August 11 2014 16:25 GoSuNamhciR wrote: Non-interactive creatures are. Creatures with a lot of ETB and triggered effects are extremely fun. For instance goblins is my favorite legacy deck (even if it has dropped down to tier 1.5 in the last few years) because its one of only 2 control decks in legacy. It has the best card draw, tied for best land denial and has a ton of interactions with their ETB creatures. However I am playing burn currently in legacy (not very fun of a deck but powerful/cheap and performing very well right now) and building up to a miracles deck. Just need to get 3 Tundras and a few more fetches and my list is done. But yes, standard sucks horribly because of how non-interactive it is. Almost every deck is about turning sideways or just not interacting at all. although i dislike aggro decks in general attacking and blocking most certainly is not non-interactive(there are alot of variables that go in to what to block and not to block which cards to play around, judging how the race is going, if i dont trade here unfavorably do i risk getting braved the elemented out), and almost every deck plays ALOT of back and forth interaction cards in this format, even G/W plays cards like brave the elements, and celesnia charm and banishing light, EVEN BURN plays multiple cards it mostly intends to interact with(chain to the rocks, searing blood), the whole game plan of jund planeswalkers is stopping your opponents gameplan while having your planeswalkers grind out value, and the black and uw decks play even more interactive cards(except pack rats,pack rats is boring and leads to non-games) | ||
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