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Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 03:12:18
September 30 2013 03:09 GMT
#9301
On September 30 2013 12:03 DEN1ED wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 11:58 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:51 DEN1ED wrote:
Read my update on the use of shortcuts. I'm just trying to warn you guys. If you play in a tournament and say "move to combat" or "declare attackers" or w/e you are now in beginning of combat phase.


Most of the time, yes. Not in micronesia's scenario. There simply isn't an opportunity for his opponent to cast a spell in beginning of combat until micronesia passes or does something to pass priority in beginning of combat.

Edit:

And since his story doesn't say that he did anything to suggest, then they were in the 1 place where his opponent could have cast a spell, precombat main phase.


Saying "go to combat" or "declare attackers" is an accepted shortcut that you want to now attack with your creatures. This means you have passed priority during beginning of combat phase. If you want a judge to rule in your favor you would have to be VERY explicit and say "I would like to leave my precombat mainphase" or "Id like to enter beginning of combat phase". Anything else is a shortcut to declare attacks step which your opponent can interrupt.


Go to combat is going to combat phase which would put you into beginning of combat. Declare attackers is going to attack phase. 2 different things. Not sure why anyone would think that the first is going to attack phase.

On September 30 2013 12:07 DEN1ED wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:02 micronesia wrote:
If I want to end my first main phase, and I announce I am going to my declare attackers phase (instead of saying I'm going to my beginning of combat phase) can my opponent announce they are casting an instant during my beginning of combat phase? I would think you can argue that I passed priority in my first main, but didn't pass priority in my beginning of combat phase, since you can't pass priority twice in a row... your opponent needs to pass priority in between your two passes.


As I've been saying, it is a shortcut. If you just draw your card and say "go" that is also a shortcut". If your opponent then casts an instant it is assumed to be end of turn phase. Your opponent never actually said he was passing priority during your draw/main1/BoC/main2 phases. In this scenario you guys would argue that he is casting that spell during your draw step. That is just not how magic works. Shortcuts, it's all shortcuts. Without them magic would be such a terribly tedious game no one would play it.


No, in that situation, I would ask what phase they're casting it in. If I am going to shortcut draw-go, then I would ask for clarification since I am moving across multiple phases. It's not tedious, it's simple, just get into the habit of stating which step you are in and asking before you do anything IF the situation warrants it.
Get it by your hands...
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
September 30 2013 03:14 GMT
#9302
On September 30 2013 12:09 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:03 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:58 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:51 DEN1ED wrote:
Read my update on the use of shortcuts. I'm just trying to warn you guys. If you play in a tournament and say "move to combat" or "declare attackers" or w/e you are now in beginning of combat phase.


Most of the time, yes. Not in micronesia's scenario. There simply isn't an opportunity for his opponent to cast a spell in beginning of combat until micronesia passes or does something to pass priority in beginning of combat.

Edit:

And since his story doesn't say that he did anything to suggest, then they were in the 1 place where his opponent could have cast a spell, precombat main phase.


Saying "go to combat" or "declare attackers" is an accepted shortcut that you want to now attack with your creatures. This means you have passed priority during beginning of combat phase. If you want a judge to rule in your favor you would have to be VERY explicit and say "I would like to leave my precombat mainphase" or "Id like to enter beginning of combat phase". Anything else is a shortcut to declare attacks step which your opponent can interrupt.


Go to combat is going to combat phase which would put you into beginning of combat. Declare attackers is going to attack phase. 2 different things. Not sure why anyone would think that the first is going to attack phase.

Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:07 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:02 micronesia wrote:
If I want to end my first main phase, and I announce I am going to my declare attackers phase (instead of saying I'm going to my beginning of combat phase) can my opponent announce they are casting an instant during my beginning of combat phase? I would think you can argue that I passed priority in my first main, but didn't pass priority in my beginning of combat phase, since you can't pass priority twice in a row... your opponent needs to pass priority in between your two passes.


As I've been saying, it is a shortcut. If you just draw your card and say "go" that is also a shortcut". If your opponent then casts an instant it is assumed to be end of turn phase. Your opponent never actually said he was passing priority during your draw/main1/BoC/main2 phases. In this scenario you guys would argue that he is casting that spell during your draw step. That is just not how magic works. Shortcuts, it's all shortcuts. Without them magic would be such a terribly tedious game no one would play it.


No, in that situation, I would ask what phase they're casting it in. If I am going to shortcut draw-go, then I would ask for clarification since I am moving across multiple phases. It's not tedious, it's simple, just get into the habit of stating which step you are in and asking before you do anything IF the situation warrants it.


Because people generally refer to "combat" as the attacking and blocking of creatures. Ask your local judges about it next time. I've said everything I can.
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 03:22:51
September 30 2013 03:22 GMT
#9303
On September 30 2013 12:09 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:03 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:58 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:51 DEN1ED wrote:
Read my update on the use of shortcuts. I'm just trying to warn you guys. If you play in a tournament and say "move to combat" or "declare attackers" or w/e you are now in beginning of combat phase.


Most of the time, yes. Not in micronesia's scenario. There simply isn't an opportunity for his opponent to cast a spell in beginning of combat until micronesia passes or does something to pass priority in beginning of combat.

Edit:

And since his story doesn't say that he did anything to suggest, then they were in the 1 place where his opponent could have cast a spell, precombat main phase.


Saying "go to combat" or "declare attackers" is an accepted shortcut that you want to now attack with your creatures. This means you have passed priority during beginning of combat phase. If you want a judge to rule in your favor you would have to be VERY explicit and say "I would like to leave my precombat mainphase" or "Id like to enter beginning of combat phase". Anything else is a shortcut to declare attacks step which your opponent can interrupt.


Go to combat is going to combat phase which would put you into beginning of combat. Declare attackers is going to attack phase. 2 different things. Not sure why anyone would think that the first is going to attack phase.

Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:07 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:02 micronesia wrote:
If I want to end my first main phase, and I announce I am going to my declare attackers phase (instead of saying I'm going to my beginning of combat phase) can my opponent announce they are casting an instant during my beginning of combat phase? I would think you can argue that I passed priority in my first main, but didn't pass priority in my beginning of combat phase, since you can't pass priority twice in a row... your opponent needs to pass priority in between your two passes.


As I've been saying, it is a shortcut. If you just draw your card and say "go" that is also a shortcut". If your opponent then casts an instant it is assumed to be end of turn phase. Your opponent never actually said he was passing priority during your draw/main1/BoC/main2 phases. In this scenario you guys would argue that he is casting that spell during your draw step. That is just not how magic works. Shortcuts, it's all shortcuts. Without them magic would be such a terribly tedious game no one would play it.


No, in that situation, I would ask what phase they're casting it in. If I am going to shortcut draw-go, then I would ask for clarification since I am moving across multiple phases. It's not tedious, it's simple, just get into the habit of stating which step you are in and asking before you do anything IF the situation warrants it.


Yes, clarifying which phase it is is a good habit. Did micronesia clarify the phase though? Doesn't sound like. Of course if Micronesia says "during my precombat main?" and his opponent says "yes" then of course he now gets priority back and can cast a sorcery. 99.99% of the time his opponent will not say yes however as that it not his opponents intent.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 03:27:56
September 30 2013 03:26 GMT
#9304
On September 30 2013 12:22 DEN1ED wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:09 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:03 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:58 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:51 DEN1ED wrote:
Read my update on the use of shortcuts. I'm just trying to warn you guys. If you play in a tournament and say "move to combat" or "declare attackers" or w/e you are now in beginning of combat phase.


Most of the time, yes. Not in micronesia's scenario. There simply isn't an opportunity for his opponent to cast a spell in beginning of combat until micronesia passes or does something to pass priority in beginning of combat.

Edit:

And since his story doesn't say that he did anything to suggest, then they were in the 1 place where his opponent could have cast a spell, precombat main phase.


Saying "go to combat" or "declare attackers" is an accepted shortcut that you want to now attack with your creatures. This means you have passed priority during beginning of combat phase. If you want a judge to rule in your favor you would have to be VERY explicit and say "I would like to leave my precombat mainphase" or "Id like to enter beginning of combat phase". Anything else is a shortcut to declare attacks step which your opponent can interrupt.


Go to combat is going to combat phase which would put you into beginning of combat. Declare attackers is going to attack phase. 2 different things. Not sure why anyone would think that the first is going to attack phase.

On September 30 2013 12:07 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:02 micronesia wrote:
If I want to end my first main phase, and I announce I am going to my declare attackers phase (instead of saying I'm going to my beginning of combat phase) can my opponent announce they are casting an instant during my beginning of combat phase? I would think you can argue that I passed priority in my first main, but didn't pass priority in my beginning of combat phase, since you can't pass priority twice in a row... your opponent needs to pass priority in between your two passes.


As I've been saying, it is a shortcut. If you just draw your card and say "go" that is also a shortcut". If your opponent then casts an instant it is assumed to be end of turn phase. Your opponent never actually said he was passing priority during your draw/main1/BoC/main2 phases. In this scenario you guys would argue that he is casting that spell during your draw step. That is just not how magic works. Shortcuts, it's all shortcuts. Without them magic would be such a terribly tedious game no one would play it.


No, in that situation, I would ask what phase they're casting it in. If I am going to shortcut draw-go, then I would ask for clarification since I am moving across multiple phases. It's not tedious, it's simple, just get into the habit of stating which step you are in and asking before you do anything IF the situation warrants it.


Yes, clarifying which phase it is is a good habit. Did micronesia clarify the phase though? Doesn't sound like. Of course if Micronesia says "during my precombat main?" and his opponent says "yes" then of course he now gets priority back and can cast a sorcery. 99.99% of the time his opponent will not say yes however as that it not his opponents intent.


I would only ask for clarification if multiple phase are being moved or if I think multiple phases are being moved across.

Micronesia doesn't have to clarify, you can realistically only move 1 at a time. If someone wants to rules-lawyer you with this, they can, why? Because turn player controls which phase the game is in ambiguous situations until otherwise specified. There was nothing to suggest that micronesia was any further than beginning of combat.

Edit:

The opponent can assume whatever they want, but it's to their detriment unless there's something to suggest contrary to what the turn player is claiming.
Get it by your hands...
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
September 30 2013 03:34 GMT
#9305
On September 30 2013 12:26 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:22 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:09 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:03 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:58 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:51 DEN1ED wrote:
Read my update on the use of shortcuts. I'm just trying to warn you guys. If you play in a tournament and say "move to combat" or "declare attackers" or w/e you are now in beginning of combat phase.


Most of the time, yes. Not in micronesia's scenario. There simply isn't an opportunity for his opponent to cast a spell in beginning of combat until micronesia passes or does something to pass priority in beginning of combat.

Edit:

And since his story doesn't say that he did anything to suggest, then they were in the 1 place where his opponent could have cast a spell, precombat main phase.


Saying "go to combat" or "declare attackers" is an accepted shortcut that you want to now attack with your creatures. This means you have passed priority during beginning of combat phase. If you want a judge to rule in your favor you would have to be VERY explicit and say "I would like to leave my precombat mainphase" or "Id like to enter beginning of combat phase". Anything else is a shortcut to declare attacks step which your opponent can interrupt.


Go to combat is going to combat phase which would put you into beginning of combat. Declare attackers is going to attack phase. 2 different things. Not sure why anyone would think that the first is going to attack phase.

On September 30 2013 12:07 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:02 micronesia wrote:
If I want to end my first main phase, and I announce I am going to my declare attackers phase (instead of saying I'm going to my beginning of combat phase) can my opponent announce they are casting an instant during my beginning of combat phase? I would think you can argue that I passed priority in my first main, but didn't pass priority in my beginning of combat phase, since you can't pass priority twice in a row... your opponent needs to pass priority in between your two passes.


As I've been saying, it is a shortcut. If you just draw your card and say "go" that is also a shortcut". If your opponent then casts an instant it is assumed to be end of turn phase. Your opponent never actually said he was passing priority during your draw/main1/BoC/main2 phases. In this scenario you guys would argue that he is casting that spell during your draw step. That is just not how magic works. Shortcuts, it's all shortcuts. Without them magic would be such a terribly tedious game no one would play it.


No, in that situation, I would ask what phase they're casting it in. If I am going to shortcut draw-go, then I would ask for clarification since I am moving across multiple phases. It's not tedious, it's simple, just get into the habit of stating which step you are in and asking before you do anything IF the situation warrants it.


Yes, clarifying which phase it is is a good habit. Did micronesia clarify the phase though? Doesn't sound like. Of course if Micronesia says "during my precombat main?" and his opponent says "yes" then of course he now gets priority back and can cast a sorcery. 99.99% of the time his opponent will not say yes however as that it not his opponents intent.


I would only ask for clarification if multiple phase are being moved or if I think multiple phases are being moved across.

Micronesia doesn't have to clarify, you can realistically only move 1 at a time. If someone wants to rules-lawyer you with this, they can, why? Because turn player controls which phase the game is in ambiguous situations until otherwise specified. There was nothing to suggest that micronesia was any further than beginning of combat.

Edit:

The opponent can assume whatever they want, but it's to their detriment unless there's something to suggest contrary to what the turn player is claiming.


I've been trying to say that micronesia was in beginning of combat this entire time. Now you say it. I'm done.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
September 30 2013 03:46 GMT
#9306
On September 30 2013 12:34 DEN1ED wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:26 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:22 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:09 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:03 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:58 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:51 DEN1ED wrote:
Read my update on the use of shortcuts. I'm just trying to warn you guys. If you play in a tournament and say "move to combat" or "declare attackers" or w/e you are now in beginning of combat phase.


Most of the time, yes. Not in micronesia's scenario. There simply isn't an opportunity for his opponent to cast a spell in beginning of combat until micronesia passes or does something to pass priority in beginning of combat.

Edit:

And since his story doesn't say that he did anything to suggest, then they were in the 1 place where his opponent could have cast a spell, precombat main phase.


Saying "go to combat" or "declare attackers" is an accepted shortcut that you want to now attack with your creatures. This means you have passed priority during beginning of combat phase. If you want a judge to rule in your favor you would have to be VERY explicit and say "I would like to leave my precombat mainphase" or "Id like to enter beginning of combat phase". Anything else is a shortcut to declare attacks step which your opponent can interrupt.


Go to combat is going to combat phase which would put you into beginning of combat. Declare attackers is going to attack phase. 2 different things. Not sure why anyone would think that the first is going to attack phase.

On September 30 2013 12:07 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:02 micronesia wrote:
If I want to end my first main phase, and I announce I am going to my declare attackers phase (instead of saying I'm going to my beginning of combat phase) can my opponent announce they are casting an instant during my beginning of combat phase? I would think you can argue that I passed priority in my first main, but didn't pass priority in my beginning of combat phase, since you can't pass priority twice in a row... your opponent needs to pass priority in between your two passes.


As I've been saying, it is a shortcut. If you just draw your card and say "go" that is also a shortcut". If your opponent then casts an instant it is assumed to be end of turn phase. Your opponent never actually said he was passing priority during your draw/main1/BoC/main2 phases. In this scenario you guys would argue that he is casting that spell during your draw step. That is just not how magic works. Shortcuts, it's all shortcuts. Without them magic would be such a terribly tedious game no one would play it.


No, in that situation, I would ask what phase they're casting it in. If I am going to shortcut draw-go, then I would ask for clarification since I am moving across multiple phases. It's not tedious, it's simple, just get into the habit of stating which step you are in and asking before you do anything IF the situation warrants it.


Yes, clarifying which phase it is is a good habit. Did micronesia clarify the phase though? Doesn't sound like. Of course if Micronesia says "during my precombat main?" and his opponent says "yes" then of course he now gets priority back and can cast a sorcery. 99.99% of the time his opponent will not say yes however as that it not his opponents intent.


I would only ask for clarification if multiple phase are being moved or if I think multiple phases are being moved across.

Micronesia doesn't have to clarify, you can realistically only move 1 at a time. If someone wants to rules-lawyer you with this, they can, why? Because turn player controls which phase the game is in ambiguous situations until otherwise specified. There was nothing to suggest that micronesia was any further than beginning of combat.

Edit:

The opponent can assume whatever they want, but it's to their detriment unless there's something to suggest contrary to what the turn player is claiming.


I've been trying to say that micronesia was in beginning of combat this entire time. Now you say it. I'm done.


Except his opponent cast an instant...in micronesia's beginning of combat...first...you really don't see anything wrong with that sequence of events?
Get it by your hands...
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
September 30 2013 03:49 GMT
#9307
On September 30 2013 12:46 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:34 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:26 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:22 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:09 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:03 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:58 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:51 DEN1ED wrote:
Read my update on the use of shortcuts. I'm just trying to warn you guys. If you play in a tournament and say "move to combat" or "declare attackers" or w/e you are now in beginning of combat phase.


Most of the time, yes. Not in micronesia's scenario. There simply isn't an opportunity for his opponent to cast a spell in beginning of combat until micronesia passes or does something to pass priority in beginning of combat.

Edit:

And since his story doesn't say that he did anything to suggest, then they were in the 1 place where his opponent could have cast a spell, precombat main phase.


Saying "go to combat" or "declare attackers" is an accepted shortcut that you want to now attack with your creatures. This means you have passed priority during beginning of combat phase. If you want a judge to rule in your favor you would have to be VERY explicit and say "I would like to leave my precombat mainphase" or "Id like to enter beginning of combat phase". Anything else is a shortcut to declare attacks step which your opponent can interrupt.


Go to combat is going to combat phase which would put you into beginning of combat. Declare attackers is going to attack phase. 2 different things. Not sure why anyone would think that the first is going to attack phase.

On September 30 2013 12:07 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:02 micronesia wrote:
If I want to end my first main phase, and I announce I am going to my declare attackers phase (instead of saying I'm going to my beginning of combat phase) can my opponent announce they are casting an instant during my beginning of combat phase? I would think you can argue that I passed priority in my first main, but didn't pass priority in my beginning of combat phase, since you can't pass priority twice in a row... your opponent needs to pass priority in between your two passes.


As I've been saying, it is a shortcut. If you just draw your card and say "go" that is also a shortcut". If your opponent then casts an instant it is assumed to be end of turn phase. Your opponent never actually said he was passing priority during your draw/main1/BoC/main2 phases. In this scenario you guys would argue that he is casting that spell during your draw step. That is just not how magic works. Shortcuts, it's all shortcuts. Without them magic would be such a terribly tedious game no one would play it.


No, in that situation, I would ask what phase they're casting it in. If I am going to shortcut draw-go, then I would ask for clarification since I am moving across multiple phases. It's not tedious, it's simple, just get into the habit of stating which step you are in and asking before you do anything IF the situation warrants it.


Yes, clarifying which phase it is is a good habit. Did micronesia clarify the phase though? Doesn't sound like. Of course if Micronesia says "during my precombat main?" and his opponent says "yes" then of course he now gets priority back and can cast a sorcery. 99.99% of the time his opponent will not say yes however as that it not his opponents intent.


I would only ask for clarification if multiple phase are being moved or if I think multiple phases are being moved across.

Micronesia doesn't have to clarify, you can realistically only move 1 at a time. If someone wants to rules-lawyer you with this, they can, why? Because turn player controls which phase the game is in ambiguous situations until otherwise specified. There was nothing to suggest that micronesia was any further than beginning of combat.

Edit:

The opponent can assume whatever they want, but it's to their detriment unless there's something to suggest contrary to what the turn player is claiming.


I've been trying to say that micronesia was in beginning of combat this entire time. Now you say it. I'm done.


Except his opponent cast an instant...in micronesia's beginning of combat...first...you really don't see anything wrong with that sequence of events?


Because micronesia shortuctted through his beginning of combat. I have finally found the article.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/article/20050204a

The important part.

+ Show Spoiler +
The big one: Icy Manipulator & Ball Lightning

This situation is very famous since it exists since Ice Age and it took a while before judges found a consistent way to deal with it. Of course it also works with many other cards, including Twiddle, and all creatures with haste.

As you all know, to go from the first main phase to the combat phase, both players have to pass in succession. Then comes the beginning of combat step, the first step of the combat phase, where both players can also pass in succession to enter the declare attackers step. If one of the players plays something, we stay in the phase or step we were in, so if the non-active player plays a spell or an ability while the active player passed priority in his main phase, we stay in the active player’s main phase and he can play sorceries or spells like creatures or equipments.

A usual situation is player A having a creature in play while his opponent controls an Icy Manipulator. A says “combat?” (or “attack?”), at that moment, B uses his Icy Manipulator to tap A’s creature. A then claims he’s still in his main phase and can play a creature with haste and attack with it.

As a judge, you have to find what “combat?” (“attack?”) means and it isn’t that obvious. There are two solutions:

“I’m in my main phase and I pass priority; if you have nothing to play we’ll enter the combat phase”
“I’m in my main phase and I pass priority; I consider you have nothing to play now and enter my combat phase. I pass priority in my beginning of combat step, if you have nothing to play, I’ll declare my attackers”.
Option (1) is very seducing. It looks simpler than (2) since it is all about replacing “pass priority” by “combat?”. It’s like considering that A is not doing a shortcut but is only using improper language.
Fine, let’s buy this.
Now you have two options: rule directly against B (A was still in his main phase because B played something) or consider that B did a technical mistake on the timing and look for B’s intent. If you look for B’s intent, you’ll find that he now has the advantage to know that A has a Ball Lightening in hand, and rule against him.
So, as a result of A not being sharp, B won’t be allowed to tap the creature with haste. The only means B could escape the trick would be if he answers A’s “combat?” by saying “Ok, we enter your combat phase”, that is to say spotting the shortcut and explaining what he understood from it…

Option (2) isn’t that stupid in itself though.

Let’s first slightly change the scenario. If there were no Icy Manipulator on the table, the three possible options would have been:

(a) (b) (c)
A: “combat?”
B: “Ok”
A: “declare attackers?”
B: “Ok”
A: -tap attacking creatures- A: “combat?”
B: “Ok”
A: -tap attacking creatures- A: -tap attacking creatures- “attack”
Option (a) sounds really weird. Player A knows about the phases and steps, and makes a point in showing it despite it delays the action, whereas there is no reason to do so. Nevertheless, he uses improper and confusing language. In real life, such communication barely never happens.

Options (b) and (c) can be merged. It is exactly what happens in 99,99% of the games: players play fast and don’t pay attention to the shortcuts they use.

To sum up, it is clear that if there is no means to tap a creature on the table, “combat?” is a shortcut that means that A is about to tap his attacking creatures, that is to say option (2).

So why would the meaning of a word change according to the cards on the table?
There is no reason behind this, and we should always consider that “combat?” means “I’m in my main phase and I pass priority; I consider you have nothing to play now and enter my combat phase. I pass priority in my beginning of combat step, if you have nothing to play, I’ll declare my attackers”.

Therefore, in order not to have A gain an advantage by using a shortcut, we have to rule that B used his Icy Manipulator in A’s beginning of combat step.


This is over now.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24752 Posts
September 30 2013 03:57 GMT
#9308
DEN1ED it's good for all of us to get on the same page (noting I never play in high enough level events for this to be an actual serious issue for me) but you really shouldn't have posts with this format:

1) <argument>
2) "this is over now"

It's trying to have it both ways.

I'll leave it to the players who are stronger than me at magic to interpret your reference there.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 03:59:47
September 30 2013 03:59 GMT
#9309
My format wasn't:
1) <argument>
2) "this is over now"

It was:
1) Judge ruling and article on basically our exact situation from official website.
2) "this is over now"
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 04:18:35
September 30 2013 04:08 GMT
#9310
On September 30 2013 12:49 DEN1ED wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 12:46 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:34 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:26 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:22 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:09 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:03 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:58 Judicator wrote:
On September 30 2013 11:51 DEN1ED wrote:
Read my update on the use of shortcuts. I'm just trying to warn you guys. If you play in a tournament and say "move to combat" or "declare attackers" or w/e you are now in beginning of combat phase.


Most of the time, yes. Not in micronesia's scenario. There simply isn't an opportunity for his opponent to cast a spell in beginning of combat until micronesia passes or does something to pass priority in beginning of combat.

Edit:

And since his story doesn't say that he did anything to suggest, then they were in the 1 place where his opponent could have cast a spell, precombat main phase.


Saying "go to combat" or "declare attackers" is an accepted shortcut that you want to now attack with your creatures. This means you have passed priority during beginning of combat phase. If you want a judge to rule in your favor you would have to be VERY explicit and say "I would like to leave my precombat mainphase" or "Id like to enter beginning of combat phase". Anything else is a shortcut to declare attacks step which your opponent can interrupt.


Go to combat is going to combat phase which would put you into beginning of combat. Declare attackers is going to attack phase. 2 different things. Not sure why anyone would think that the first is going to attack phase.

On September 30 2013 12:07 DEN1ED wrote:
On September 30 2013 12:02 micronesia wrote:
If I want to end my first main phase, and I announce I am going to my declare attackers phase (instead of saying I'm going to my beginning of combat phase) can my opponent announce they are casting an instant during my beginning of combat phase? I would think you can argue that I passed priority in my first main, but didn't pass priority in my beginning of combat phase, since you can't pass priority twice in a row... your opponent needs to pass priority in between your two passes.


As I've been saying, it is a shortcut. If you just draw your card and say "go" that is also a shortcut". If your opponent then casts an instant it is assumed to be end of turn phase. Your opponent never actually said he was passing priority during your draw/main1/BoC/main2 phases. In this scenario you guys would argue that he is casting that spell during your draw step. That is just not how magic works. Shortcuts, it's all shortcuts. Without them magic would be such a terribly tedious game no one would play it.


No, in that situation, I would ask what phase they're casting it in. If I am going to shortcut draw-go, then I would ask for clarification since I am moving across multiple phases. It's not tedious, it's simple, just get into the habit of stating which step you are in and asking before you do anything IF the situation warrants it.


Yes, clarifying which phase it is is a good habit. Did micronesia clarify the phase though? Doesn't sound like. Of course if Micronesia says "during my precombat main?" and his opponent says "yes" then of course he now gets priority back and can cast a sorcery. 99.99% of the time his opponent will not say yes however as that it not his opponents intent.


I would only ask for clarification if multiple phase are being moved or if I think multiple phases are being moved across.

Micronesia doesn't have to clarify, you can realistically only move 1 at a time. If someone wants to rules-lawyer you with this, they can, why? Because turn player controls which phase the game is in ambiguous situations until otherwise specified. There was nothing to suggest that micronesia was any further than beginning of combat.

Edit:

The opponent can assume whatever they want, but it's to their detriment unless there's something to suggest contrary to what the turn player is claiming.


I've been trying to say that micronesia was in beginning of combat this entire time. Now you say it. I'm done.


Except his opponent cast an instant...in micronesia's beginning of combat...first...you really don't see anything wrong with that sequence of events?


Because micronesia shortuctted through his beginning of combat. I have finally found the article.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/article/20050204a

The important part.

+ Show Spoiler +
The big one: Icy Manipulator & Ball Lightning

This situation is very famous since it exists since Ice Age and it took a while before judges found a consistent way to deal with it. Of course it also works with many other cards, including Twiddle, and all creatures with haste.

As you all know, to go from the first main phase to the combat phase, both players have to pass in succession. Then comes the beginning of combat step, the first step of the combat phase, where both players can also pass in succession to enter the declare attackers step. If one of the players plays something, we stay in the phase or step we were in, so if the non-active player plays a spell or an ability while the active player passed priority in his main phase, we stay in the active player’s main phase and he can play sorceries or spells like creatures or equipments.

A usual situation is player A having a creature in play while his opponent controls an Icy Manipulator. A says “combat?” (or “attack?”), at that moment, B uses his Icy Manipulator to tap A’s creature. A then claims he’s still in his main phase and can play a creature with haste and attack with it.

As a judge, you have to find what “combat?” (“attack?”) means and it isn’t that obvious. There are two solutions:

“I’m in my main phase and I pass priority; if you have nothing to play we’ll enter the combat phase”
“I’m in my main phase and I pass priority; I consider you have nothing to play now and enter my combat phase. I pass priority in my beginning of combat step, if you have nothing to play, I’ll declare my attackers”.
Option (1) is very seducing. It looks simpler than (2) since it is all about replacing “pass priority” by “combat?”. It’s like considering that A is not doing a shortcut but is only using improper language.
Fine, let’s buy this.
Now you have two options: rule directly against B (A was still in his main phase because B played something) or consider that B did a technical mistake on the timing and look for B’s intent. If you look for B’s intent, you’ll find that he now has the advantage to know that A has a Ball Lightening in hand, and rule against him.
So, as a result of A not being sharp, B won’t be allowed to tap the creature with haste. The only means B could escape the trick would be if he answers A’s “combat?” by saying “Ok, we enter your combat phase”, that is to say spotting the shortcut and explaining what he understood from it…

Option (2) isn’t that stupid in itself though.

Let’s first slightly change the scenario. If there were no Icy Manipulator on the table, the three possible options would have been:

(a) (b) (c)
A: “combat?”
B: “Ok”
A: “declare attackers?”
B: “Ok”
A: -tap attacking creatures- A: “combat?”
B: “Ok”
A: -tap attacking creatures- A: -tap attacking creatures- “attack”
Option (a) sounds really weird. Player A knows about the phases and steps, and makes a point in showing it despite it delays the action, whereas there is no reason to do so. Nevertheless, he uses improper and confusing language. In real life, such communication barely never happens.

Options (b) and (c) can be merged. It is exactly what happens in 99,99% of the games: players play fast and don’t pay attention to the shortcuts they use.

To sum up, it is clear that if there is no means to tap a creature on the table, “combat?” is a shortcut that means that A is about to tap his attacking creatures, that is to say option (2).

So why would the meaning of a word change according to the cards on the table?
There is no reason behind this, and we should always consider that “combat?” means “I’m in my main phase and I pass priority; I consider you have nothing to play now and enter my combat phase. I pass priority in my beginning of combat step, if you have nothing to play, I’ll declare my attackers”.

Therefore, in order not to have A gain an advantage by using a shortcut, we have to rule that B used his Icy Manipulator in A’s beginning of combat step.


This is over now.


Sigh, for the last time...that doesn't apply...like how your Demon example didn't apply...

Please for the love of god read what you are posting.

If there was nothing to suggest that Micronesia was further than beginning of combat pre-priority passing, then if the opponent plays a spell, it is assumed that we are still in pre-combat main. It's as simple as that. Micronesia didn't say "combat", and it does depend on the shortcut used, but again, if micronesia never moved beyond the beginning of combat, the opponent can not play the spell first.

If you do something like what his opponent did, then its pretty clear as turn player that I am in furthest turn step/phase that they can cast something which is pre-combat main.

Maybe I am interpreting it differently since I don't say combat, but rather say beginning of combat to indicate that I am passing priority in my beginning of combat. Basically, since I played YGO where priority was explicitly asked, I am more careful about stuff like this. The same way I can't bait out spells in phases by claiming priority.

Edit:

Just to clarify, the wording used by micronesia in his original post was very specific and very unambiguous which is why I am interpreting the matter as such. Now like in your icy-ball lightning example, there's a lot of ambiguity involved and the judges have to curb the apparent abuse.

The main lesson for anyone following this is to actually use the accurate terms, you don't say combat any more than you should say your turn. I do this on MWS where this communication is even less apparent than in real life. For combat, you should be saying beginning of combat, then pass. For passing turns, I am usually saying pass to indicate that I have passed priority for until the opponent does something.

So for DEN1ED's example, the icy manipulator player could have said in your beginning of combat tap down that creature to remove any ambiguity on which game phase everyone is currently in.

Edit 2:

DEN1ED, the reason your example doesn't apply is again, multiple steps/phases are being moved across in their example. In micronesia's case, only 1 has been moved or attempted to be moved. If Micronesia doesn't give up priority and the opponent casts a spell in a situation where they do not have priority in beginning of combat step, then the ONLY logical place where opponent thinks they are is pre-combat main.
Get it by your hands...
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
September 30 2013 04:19 GMT
#9311
If you just say "beginning of combat" it's the same thing. You would have to say "Move to beginning of combat?" or "Enter beginning of combat?". If you just say "beginning of combat" and your opponent replies with "ok" it is assumed you are now going to declare your attackers, not that you have entered beginning of combat phase.

I'm just trying to give everyone a heads up if they play in a tournament. Either be EXTREMELY specific with your wording or accept what your opponents intent is.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24752 Posts
September 30 2013 04:24 GMT
#9312
So when I want to end my main phase, what is a good wording to use to avoid problems? The issue I see is that anything which won't get me into trouble with the judges and a stubborn opponent will instead confuse those opponents of mine who aren't totally familiar with these details...
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
September 30 2013 04:29 GMT
#9313
When moving to combat you simply say "Begin combat?" If they say no, I'd like to do X, you are still in the main phase. If he says yes, then you are in the begin combat phase.
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 04:38:01
September 30 2013 04:34 GMT
#9314
On September 30 2013 13:19 DEN1ED wrote:
If you just say "beginning of combat" it's the same thing. You would have to say "Move to beginning of combat?" or "Enter beginning of combat?". If you just say "beginning of combat" and your opponent replies with "ok" it is assumed you are now going to declare your attackers, not that you have entered beginning of combat phase.

I'm just trying to give everyone a heads up if they play in a tournament. Either be EXTREMELY specific with your wording or accept what your opponents intent is.


Yes except his opponent played a spell. Even in the wizards article, they backed up to the latest phase or step in which icy could be activated, which was beginning of combat. In micro's case, that step has to be precombat as long as micro hangs on to priority. Now that last part can be ambiguous for sure, but thats how it looks.

Edit:
TLDR for anyone attempting to follow

Say: Begin(ning) of combat? if you intend to go to combat phase.
Say: end of turn. if you intend to pass the turn.

Theres very little ambiguity on your part here and if your opponent does something then its very clear where you both are.
Get it by your hands...
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 05:09:17
September 30 2013 04:41 GMT
#9315
On September 30 2013 13:34 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 13:19 DEN1ED wrote:
If you just say "beginning of combat" it's the same thing. You would have to say "Move to beginning of combat?" or "Enter beginning of combat?". If you just say "beginning of combat" and your opponent replies with "ok" it is assumed you are now going to declare your attackers, not that you have entered beginning of combat phase.

I'm just trying to give everyone a heads up if they play in a tournament. Either be EXTREMELY specific with your wording or accept what your opponents intent is.


Yes except his opponent played a spell. Even in the wizards article, they backed up to the latest phase or step in which icy could be activated, which was beginning of combat. In micro's case, that step has to be precombat as long as micro hangs on to priority. Now that last part can be ambiguous for sure, but thats how it looks.

Edit:
TLDR for anyone attempting to follow

Say: Begin(ning) of combat? if you intend to go to combat phase.
Say: end of turn. if you intend to pass the turn.

Theres very little ambiguity on your part here and if your opponent does something then its very clear where you both are.


Ya, and upon rereading what micronesia wrote I can understand your position now. "I announced I was ending my main phase and going into the next phase" If that is exactly what he said then you are correct. I've just never actually heard anyone say "end my main phase and go to next phase". That certainly would be specific enough to have no ambiguity.

EDIT:
I don't agree with saying "Begin(ning) of combat?". That could be confusing as you could be talking about entering the combat phase as a whole, or you could be talking about the beginning of combat phase specifically. That could be interrupted as either "Move to beginning of combat phase" or "Pass priority in beginning of combat phase/attempt to move to attackers". I know for sure that if I have an icy manipulator out and my opponent say "Beginning of combat?" , I'm using the icy to tap a creature.

The same goes for any phase I think, if all you say is "Phase X?", it could be interpreted as "I want to move to phase X" or "Do you have any effects in Phase X?".

You can try to trap/trick a player and rules lawyer them but odds are a judge won't side with you.

Almost all the time though, you can just say "combat?" or "attack?" and both players will be on the same page. It's the cost of shortucts. They speed up the game greatly but occasionally cause miscommunication
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
September 30 2013 05:11 GMT
#9316
On a completley unrelated note, Drafting GB rock in cube online is so fun. Love me some turn 1 lilianas.
EMIYA
Profile Joined March 2011
United States433 Posts
September 30 2013 06:59 GMT
#9317
cube is fun until you run into the fun police (aka mono red players and UW force control)
FireSA
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia555 Posts
September 30 2013 07:55 GMT
#9318
To indicate that I am intending to go to combat, I generally say "Combat?" and gesture emphatically. It's all about good communication skills, and being courteous, especially at more casual events. Just be clear and direct. If a person says "Combat" you can generally say "Before Combat" but then a good habit is to also say "Declare Attacks?" to give the opponent an opportunity to state "before attacks". But yeah, you can't dodge spells by claiming to have used a shortcut that somehow removes a player's opportunity to play something during a particular phase. Even in turns where you play a land, then say "go", you go through all the phases, so if I have goblin diplomat, you should be decent enough to declare the combat phases, rather than pretend I don't have an opportunity to make you attack me with your crap creatures.

On an unrelated note, finished my esper list for now. Keen to give it a go. Feedback appreciated.

Land (26)
4 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Watery Grave
4 Island
3 Plains
1 Azorious Guildgate
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Temple of Silence

Instant (19)
3 Syncopate
1 Dissolve
1 Essence Scatter
3 Azorius Charm
2 Doom Blade
1 Devour Flesh
3 Far // Away
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Sphinx's Revelation

Sorcery (4)
4 Supreme Verdict

Creature (3)
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Aetherling

Enchantment (3)
3 Detention Sphere

Planeswalker (5)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Sideboard (15)
1 Omenspeaker
1 Yoked Ox
1 Last Breath
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sin Collector
2 Duress
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Aetherling
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Angel of Serenity
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 12:27:24
September 30 2013 11:41 GMT
#9319
So... YMTC 4 is over. And the cost of black's discard engine is...

1b?!?!

Waste Not - 1B
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent discards a creature card, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
Whenever an opponent discards a land card, add BB to your mana pool.
Whenever an opponent discards a noncreature, nonland card, draw a card.

Could it be? Could a modern discard deck actually be possible?!
+ Show Spoiler +
No, I don't think so. But lets try it out, shall we?



Possible cards:
(Creature // Sorcery // Other
Definite // Probable // Possible/Borderline

1CMC
Deathrite Shaman, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtsieze, Funeral charm, Raven's Crime, Burning Inquiry, Quest for the Nihil Stone, Dream Salvage

2CMC
Augur of Skulls, Snapcaster Mage, scavenging ooze, Hymn to Tourach, Wrench Mind, Doom Blade, Remand, Waste Not

3CMC
Hypnotic Specter, Stupor, Perplex, Recoil, Blightning, Consult the Necrosages, Wistful Thinking, Dismember, Liliana of the Veil

So, if they discard a creature, we get a creature. Board state baby, thats a 2-for-1 in my book.
If they discard a spell (noncreature/nonland), we get to draw another discard spell.
If they discard a land, we get to cast another (possibly stronger than out original) discard spell for free, which takes us right back to the above two options.


Tell me what I'm missing, and how you would put it all together!




As far as mana goes,
I really think this deck can get by on 20 lands. We only need one if we get Deathrite, but even if we don't, we only really need two. I also think we can stick to grixis (splashing a forest for deathrite) and not go 5color for esper charm/path. Red is only there for Blightning, which really isn't great when it isn't being cascaded into, so we might be able to run straight UB. Still, lets have a splash for possible blightning and the miracle Reforge the Soul, maybe a slaughtergames in the sideboard, etc.


4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Watery Grave
3x Swamp
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
2x Blood Crypt
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Urborg

That sound about right?
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 12:14:48
September 30 2013 12:12 GMT
#9320
I am pretty effing sure Hymn to tourach is not in modern.

don't forget dudes like nezumi shortfang, ravenous rats & drainpipe vermin, all good cheap discard tools.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
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