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Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
June 26 2013 04:21 GMT
#8041
Its part of the game, just move on and accept it.
Get it by your hands...
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24761 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 05:06:21
June 26 2013 05:06 GMT
#8042
Sure, although I don't think I indicated I didn't accept it or need to move on.

Also, I placed third and won a booster with a couple of nice cards which takes the sting out of it. They also have this amazing blue cheese infused burger there which makes the trip worth it.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 08:31:01
June 26 2013 08:30 GMT
#8043
Golgari is one.of.my favorite things to draft. I did in gatecrash even.

4x contaminated ground, 4x grisly spectacle, spire chasers basillica screechers and bloodlust? Yes please!
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24761 Posts
June 26 2013 19:02 GMT
#8044
Question about mana:

I always hear that the magic number for number of lands is 17 (in a 40 card draft deck). Obviously, this depends on factors like how many colors you are running, how many of them are dual lands, number of non-land sources, etc.

I find when I go 2 color and use 17 lands (let's say, 1 gate) I end up with too little land one or two times per tournament minimum, and rarely end up with too much land. It seems like 17 just isn't enough, but it could just be luck of the draw on my part. In other words, my experience shows that 17 lands means I will often have too little land, and rarely have too much land. Is this different than what most people typically experience? I'm inclined to bump my 'go to' number up to 18 and see how it goes.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
June 26 2013 19:17 GMT
#8045
On June 27 2013 04:02 micronesia wrote:
Question about mana:

I always hear that the magic number for number of lands is 17 (in a 40 card draft deck). Obviously, this depends on factors like how many colors you are running, how many of them are dual lands, number of non-land sources, etc.

I find when I go 2 color and use 17 lands (let's say, 1 gate) I end up with too little land one or two times per tournament minimum, and rarely end up with too much land. It seems like 17 just isn't enough, but it could just be luck of the draw on my part. In other words, my experience shows that 17 lands means I will often have too little land, and rarely have too much land. Is this different than what most people typically experience? I'm inclined to bump my 'go to' number up to 18 and see how it goes.


Like I said, its part of the game. I didn't one-line you for no reason. I kind of figured that's where you were going with this. 17's the magic number for most decks, 15-16 for super aggressive decks or combo decks like cube storm where you have mana artifacts, 18 if you have bigdrops.dec or 5colornofixing.dec. These are just general guidelines.

I don't know what kind of decks you like to draft, you could be just taking more high drops than you really should.
Get it by your hands...
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 20:15:54
June 26 2013 20:15 GMT
#8046
I think 18 lands is rarely correct. In a lot of formats, you want to be running 16, but DGR is one of the more mana-hungry formats we've had in awhile. The slower decks in this format would rather have cluestones than additional lands though, and cluestones are so easy to pick up that I wouldn't consider running 18 in most circumstances barring multiple mana sinks/lots of extort. Mana flood is much worse than mana screw.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24761 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 20:30:37
June 26 2013 20:28 GMT
#8047
On June 27 2013 04:17 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2013 04:02 micronesia wrote:
Question about mana:

I always hear that the magic number for number of lands is 17 (in a 40 card draft deck). Obviously, this depends on factors like how many colors you are running, how many of them are dual lands, number of non-land sources, etc.

I find when I go 2 color and use 17 lands (let's say, 1 gate) I end up with too little land one or two times per tournament minimum, and rarely end up with too much land. It seems like 17 just isn't enough, but it could just be luck of the draw on my part. In other words, my experience shows that 17 lands means I will often have too little land, and rarely have too much land. Is this different than what most people typically experience? I'm inclined to bump my 'go to' number up to 18 and see how it goes.


Like I said, its part of the game.
I think you are missing my point. I'm not saying "Why am I having mana problems; this shouldn't happen." I'm saying "When I have mana problems they are almost always due to having too few land instead of too much land."
I kind of figured that's where you were going with this.
"This" is almost irrelevant to my earlier post. Earlier I was commenting on how I got mana screwed, and wasn't complaining. Now I am talking about how much land you need, and how the commonly accepted numbers compare to my experiences.

17's the magic number for most decks, 15-16 for super aggressive decks or combo decks like cube storm where you have mana artifacts, 18 if you have bigdrops.dec or 5colornofixing.dec. These are just general guidelines.
Yes this is consistent with what I've heard in other places.

I don't know what kind of decks you like to draft, you could be just taking more high drops than you really should.
My problem is with the high occurrences of getting stuck at 2,3,4 mana until turn 7,8,etc; not having a bunch of 7-8 drops and getting out 6 land in 6 turns and then having a couple of turns with no land. Also, situations where you draw 7 cards with one land, and mulligan to 6 cards with one land are things I see.

On June 27 2013 05:15 Cel.erity wrote:
I think 18 lands is rarely correct. In a lot of formats, you want to be running 16, but DGR is one of the more mana-hungry formats we've had in awhile. The slower decks in this format would rather have cluestones than additional lands though, and cluestones are so easy to pick up that I wouldn't consider running 18 in most circumstances barring multiple mana sinks/lots of extort.
Good point; I could try reserving 18 lands for situations where I just couldn't get the 1-2 cluestones/keyrunes I wanted.
Mana flood is much worse than mana screw.
Yes I should keep this in mind. It's okay if I get mana screwed a bit more often than mana flooded... however.... it seems to me like I get screwed a hell of a lot more than flooded.

ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
June 26 2013 21:08 GMT
#8048
On June 27 2013 05:15 Cel.erity wrote:
I think 18 lands is rarely correct. In a lot of formats, you want to be running 16, but DGR is one of the more mana-hungry formats we've had in awhile. The slower decks in this format would rather have cluestones than additional lands though, and cluestones are so easy to pick up that I wouldn't consider running 18 in most circumstances barring multiple mana sinks/lots of extort. Mana flood is much worse than mana screw.


I think I ran 18 once in NPH when I just had bomb after bomb and just wanted to hit my 6th land consistently. I wouldn't go up to 18 either in this current environment either.

@micronesia, I guess I just took it different than you did since you mentioned it twice in your last few posts. In either case, I am just warning you that if you increase your land count to fix your mana screw problems, you are doing more than changing your chances of being mana screwed. In terms of general land problems, I don't think you should be worried about the proportion of mana screwed games versus proportion of mana flooded games; seems like a very pointless proposition to be adjusting your land count for, if you understand what I am getting at.
Get it by your hands...
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24761 Posts
June 26 2013 21:12 GMT
#8049
Yes, I do see what you mean. I'll make more of an effort to use cluestones/keyrunes instead of surplus lands when I feel like I have insufficient mana.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24761 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 20:35:08
June 27 2013 20:32 GMT
#8050
I have a couple of questions. The first one is about when to play land:

Let's say you are going first and have several lands, as well as a 2 drop (2/2) and a 3 drop (3/3) in your hand. You play a land, then your opponent plays a land. You play a second land and a 2 drop, then your opponent plays a second land and a 2 drop. You can play the land, swing, and then put down the 3 drop. Alternately you could play the 3 drop before you swing, but that's obviously worse. However, the third option is to swing, play the land, then play the three drop. When do you play the land before swinging, and when do you play it after? I'm not sure of the pros and cons there. Obviously this is still situational and without showing each card in my hand and exactly what my opponent is showing, specific advice can't be offered. I just tried to set up a general situation to illustrate the two choices I'm stuck between. I've seen opponents do it both ways. Generally, when do you want to withhold whether or not you are going to play a third land? Here are the two sides as I see it:

Withhold the land until after the swing: He can't tell if you are mana screwed or not, so he has less information available when he decides whether or not to block.

Get the land out before the swing: You have more mana available, so there are more instants I can afford, meaning more possible tricks to use during combat. This decreases the chances of him blocking, while allowing me to block his counterattack with my 3 drop that he's not yet aware of.



My other question is just thoughts on a 6 booster sealed deck I used:

[image loading]
The split card near the top is alive/well.

[image loading]

My thoughts on the deck:

I have a fair amount of mana fixing, but going four colors (even though two of them are less represented) without multiple cards that create mana of any color is risky. Gleam of battle is probably not worth it unless I'm going pure boros and it complements my other cards well. I have two cards that utilize both of my secondary colors WU, and neither of them will suddenly end the game if I get them into play, so that's really pushing it as well. I think the gruul component of my deck is good. If I had a few more relevant green/red cards I probably would have went 2 color.

What are the biggest weaknesses of the deck I built, and how could I have utilized the remaining cards better? I found it a bit tricky (in the allotted time) to narrow down what to use. Maybe I could have gone W/B and splashed a third color for a couple of other cards.

edit: oh there is something wrong with the basic lands there... one of those forests should be a mountain
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
MCMcEmcee
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1609 Posts
June 27 2013 21:35 GMT
#8051
You can probably cut the blue cards, Hold the Gates and Gleam of Battle easily.
Cutting those, I'd probably play some combination of Alive//Well, Annihilating Fire, Pursuit of Flight, Golgari Longlegs, and/or Tenement Crasher in Gruul colors... white splash for Helix and Well (and potentially Trostani's Judgment) seems fine.
[iHs]MCMcEmcee@UFO | のヮの
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 22:53:23
June 27 2013 22:52 GMT
#8052
On June 28 2013 05:32 micronesia wrote:
I have a couple of questions. The first one is about when to play land:

Let's say you are going first and have several lands, as well as a 2 drop (2/2) and a 3 drop (3/3) in your hand. You play a land, then your opponent plays a land. You play a second land and a 2 drop, then your opponent plays a second land and a 2 drop. You can play the land, swing, and then put down the 3 drop. Alternately you could play the 3 drop before you swing, but that's obviously worse. However, the third option is to swing, play the land, then play the three drop. When do you play the land before swinging, and when do you play it after? I'm not sure of the pros and cons there. Obviously this is still situational and without showing each card in my hand and exactly what my opponent is showing, specific advice can't be offered. I just tried to set up a general situation to illustrate the two choices I'm stuck between. I've seen opponents do it both ways. Generally, when do you want to withhold whether or not you are going to play a third land? Here are the two sides as I see it:

Withhold the land until after the swing: He can't tell if you are mana screwed or not, so he has less information available when he decides whether or not to block.

Get the land out before the swing: You have more mana available, so there are more instants I can afford, meaning more possible tricks to use during combat. This decreases the chances of him blocking, while allowing me to block his counterattack with my 3 drop that he's not yet aware of.


Pretty much what you said. It's a really minor detail. Contrary to logic, I find my opponent is slightly less likely to block if I hold the land. Not sure if that's because of something psychological, or because of the possibility that they think I might be mana screwed, or what. I try to play the land before attacking 50% of the time, and after 50% of the time.

However, you should NEVER play the land before attacking if you already have like 6 mana in play (unless you might need it, of course), because you're giving them a lot of information about your hand at that point.


My other question is just thoughts on a 6 booster sealed deck I used:

[image loading]
The split card near the top is alive/well.

[image loading]

My thoughts on the deck:

I have a fair amount of mana fixing, but going four colors (even though two of them are less represented) without multiple cards that create mana of any color is risky. Gleam of battle is probably not worth it unless I'm going pure boros and it complements my other cards well. I have two cards that utilize both of my secondary colors WU, and neither of them will suddenly end the game if I get them into play, so that's really pushing it as well. I think the gruul component of my deck is good. If I had a few more relevant green/red cards I probably would have went 2 color.

What are the biggest weaknesses of the deck I built, and how could I have utilized the remaining cards better? I found it a bit tricky (in the allotted time) to narrow down what to use. Maybe I could have gone W/B and splashed a third color for a couple of other cards.

edit: oh there is something wrong with the basic lands there... one of those forests should be a mountain


Realmwright is a very bad card. It's a 1/1 that does not produce mana, so it's basically just an enchantment that fixes for one color. Furthermore, you don't ever want to splash for fixing. You want your splash cards to be impactful in the midgame and lategame. It's very hard to get something like a Realmwright or Gatecreeper Vine out early enough to fix your colors if they're splashed.

In that pool, my first impressions are that you can't get away with playing just two colors + a splash, because all of your best cards are aggressive, and you won't have a high enough creature count (you want at least 17 creatures in an aggressive deck for bloodrush/battalion). It's honestly a very weak pool. So, I would figure out the best way to play three colors, which I think is RGW. RW has your best cards by far, and your most aggressive cards, so we'll try to minimize the green.

Darking Skyjek
Court Street Denizen
Seller of Songbirds
Assault Griffin
Urbis Protector
Skinbrand Goblin
Lobber Crew
Rubblebelt Maaka
Scorchwalker
Tenement Crasher
Viashino Firstblade
Wojek Halberdiers
Armored Transport
Armored Wolf-Rider
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Alive/Well

Mugging
Annihilating Fire
Warleader's Helix
Trostani's Judgment
Clan Defiance
Gleam of Battle -or- Common Bond
Selesnya Cluestone


In draft I would play Common Bond over Gleam, but the sealed format might be slow enough that Gleam is just insane. This is only 16 creatures, but there isn't really another good creature to add. Note I am not playing Volatile Rig, as that card is utterly unplayable in aggressive decks, especially in sealed. You play it on curve, your opponent has any burn spell or starts chumping it with 1/1's, you have a chance to lose the game on the spot. It's only good in Rakdos decks, or decks with a good lategame.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 22:54:14
June 27 2013 22:53 GMT
#8053
Definitely some interesting card choices. McMcEmcee pretty much highlights my thoughts, I would splash the white and that's about it, not worth bending your mana.

\Whenever you can deny your opponent information WITHOUT sacking your relevant options, you should. The situation you described doesn't matter a whole lot, because I doubt your opponent would have played differently.

Edit:

Format your post Cel.rity
Get it by your hands...
Audemed
Profile Joined November 2010
United States893 Posts
June 27 2013 23:24 GMT
#8054
It seems the blue splash was unnecessary, considering the other cards in your colors that you ended up skipping. Skyjek, Halberdiers, Wolf rider, assault griffin, gift of orzhova, civic saber (sometimes), and pursuit of flight could all go in there to give you a really solid deck. Hold the gates also has no real place in any deck, honestly; gates are only good in limited, where you won't get enough for Hold to be useful consistently.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -George Orwell
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24761 Posts
June 27 2013 23:55 GMT
#8055
Thanks guys for your thoughts. The one thing I still don't see is why 'hold the gates' is necessarily a bad card. If you have several gates (I had 4 this time), isn't giving your creatures vigilance plus extra toughness very useful? It's not very expensive, but as an enchantment I guess it's pretty easy to remove it.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
June 28 2013 00:28 GMT
#8056
On June 28 2013 08:55 micronesia wrote:
Thanks guys for your thoughts. The one thing I still don't see is why 'hold the gates' is necessarily a bad card. If you have several gates (I had 4 this time), isn't giving your creatures vigilance plus extra toughness very useful? It's not very expensive, but as an enchantment I guess it's pretty easy to remove it.


It doesn't help you win combats the vast majority of the time and only works when you have a good number of creatures on the board.
Audemed
Profile Joined November 2010
United States893 Posts
June 28 2013 00:48 GMT
#8057
Essentially, it's bad because it requires 3 things to happen. Firstly, you need the enchantment itself. Second, you need to have a gate out, which won't always happen. Third, and most importantly, you need a creature that's got a butt big enough to bother even blocking with. Most of the creatures in draft that you block with, you don't/cant attack with in any case, so the extra toughness isn't really helping much other than making your dudes a little more likely to survive some attacks.

There's a ton more great things that can fit in that 3 mana slot, and just looking at your pool I'd pick court street denizen, armored transport, rootborn defenses, or even common bond above them in that slot. Court street is a slightly expensive body with a decent effect, armored transport can get damage through or force chumps (altho sometimes it just punches a brick wall, but w/e), rootborn can win games later when the board gets clogged, and common bond...well it's counters. Any of those have a more direct and significant effect overall than the hold the gates will.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -George Orwell
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24761 Posts
June 28 2013 01:06 GMT
#8058
On June 28 2013 09:48 Audemed wrote:
Essentially, it's bad because it requires 3 things to happen. Firstly, you need the enchantment itself.
I don't think that's a fair criticism considering that's true of every spell. You do need to have it in order to cast it.

Second, you need to have a gate out, which won't always happen
Well you don't need to have a gate out; it still gives your creatures vigilance even if you don't have any gates. However, it definitely isn't worth it without gates. Another possibility is that you put it out without gates, and then it gets more effective as you put gates out.

Third, and most importantly, you need a creature that's got a butt big enough to bother even blocking with. Most of the creatures in draft that you block with, you don't/cant attack with in any case, so the extra toughness isn't really helping much other than making your dudes a little more likely to survive some attacks.
So from the sound of it, it doesn't make sense due to the nature of most decks you would put together in draft. I still don't see how it couldn't fit nicely into certain decks, but I could see how it wouldn't fit into most, given the alternatives you often have available for three drops.

It doesn't seem like a bad card to me... just difficult to utilize in this format. As such I will stop using it since I probably wouldn't be able to accurately judge in the few minutes you get to build a deck whether or not I've set up one of those exception scenarios where hold the gets is actually worth a spot in your 30 or 40 cards.

ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
June 28 2013 01:22 GMT
#8059
It's pretty easy to evaluate a card like Hold the Gates when you think about it.

-If an enchantment gave +0/+1 and vigilance to all of my creatures, would I play it? No
-How about +0/+2? Maybe. +0/+3? Probably.
-So we can conclude that you need to have ~2.7 gates in play at any given time to make the card worthwhile.

Now, do the math on how many gates you're likely to have in play when it hits, and you'll probably come up short most of the time. The decks where it's good at +0/+1 are the decks with a lot of flyers and tokens.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24761 Posts
June 28 2013 01:29 GMT
#8060
My issue is with how you are valuing the number of gates you need to make it worth playing it. Obviously, the benefit of vigilance (as well as additional toughness) is very situational. There are times when you would be willing to spend 5 mana to give all your creatures vigilance even with no gates, and others where you wouldn't be willing to pay 1 mana.

How do you determine the value of things like these? I'm not going to say you guys are wrong, but there's really no way for me to determine this other than through subjective experience. I guess that's magic.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
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