EPTMagic: The Gathering - Page 359
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fifasnipe2224
United States243 Posts
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On April 23 2013 07:42 Risen wrote: How? :/ WTB board wipe. Mutilate is bad in three color. Killing Wave is also bad. Magmaquake is too slow. Rolling temblor doesn't hit flyers, also only does 2 dmg and on turn 3, not turn 2. Mizzium Mortars, Bonfire of the Damned, Mutilate is better than you think it is, Sever the Bloodline, not to mention all the best spot removal and bounce. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
There's no black wrath. If you want to trade 1 for 1 in Grixis without Sphinx access, that's not so good. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On April 23 2013 08:55 Judicator wrote: Sever does nothing against decks with a sack effect. Mutilate requires you to go heavy black which at this point there is 0 incentive to. Mortars is 6 mana when wrath on 4 isn't enough at times, Bonfire is worse than Terminus for wrathing. There's no black wrath. If you want to trade 1 for 1 in Grixis without Sphinx access, that's not so good. Grixis plays trumps rather than Sphinx, it's a lot less slow. I'm aware their wraths suck, but they ARE wraths. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
My point about trading 1 for 1 isn't about trumps since Jace is a trump for Esper, different decks, but similar functions. I am well aware of what Grixis is about, but the problem is that without an effective wrath, you are you trading 1 for 1 all day with creature decks on top of the fact that your best removal spells are sorceries. You don't have Sphinx to suddenly recover that card economy that you lost. Like if they use any Burning Tree lines, you are in a lot of trouble since you don't don't have the mana that point and have no real hope of getting it. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On April 23 2013 09:28 Judicator wrote: I know they are, but my point is that if they're not effective. My point about trading 1 for 1 isn't about trumps since Jace is a trump for Esper, different decks, but similar functions. I am well aware of what Grixis is about, but the problem is that without an effective wrath, you are you trading 1 for 1 all day with creature decks on top of the fact that your best removal spells are sorceries. You don't have Sphinx to suddenly recover that card economy that you lost. Like if they use any Burning Tree lines, you are in a lot of trouble since you don't don't have the mana that point and have no real hope of getting it. Well the point is that Esper keeps drawing cards to keep not dying, whereas Grixis has to survive till 7-8 mana and start dropping Niv Mizzets, Nicol Bolas, etc. that takes over the board. They can afford to 1 for 1 because they don't have to do it for as long as Esper. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
You simply don't have the mana or life points to do so against Burning Tree lines, especially on the draw, it's just how it is right now in the aggro vs control match up. Niv is a turn 6 play. Nicol is even later than that. Try to craft a hand where you can magically stabilize while still holding enough relevant cards. Aggro decks in this regard are more consistent than the Grixis deck, there's no looming Sphinx or Verdict to just end the game (in most cases). This isn't Jund where you can ramp out a Thragtusk or turn 3 Olivia to really hamper an aggro draw, nor is it Bant where Farseek can do some really heavy lifting. The fact is that neither Niv nor Nicol do diddly squat to raise that life point total up to where you aren't in the red zone, nor are your best removal spells instant (dreadbore/mortars). You are behind the ball against most average RG aggro draws and even more so against resilient creatures or haste creatures. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
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EMIYA
United States433 Posts
pack ratss | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
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EMIYA
United States433 Posts
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
It's not like your finishers in Grixis are much better than Esper's Drownyards + Jaces or UWR's Reckoners/Thundermaws/Aurelias/Jaces/Assembles/Niv-Mizzets/Pikes either, so I don't see why you would want to suffer so much more in turns 4-6 when you could be casting Verdicts and Revelations. If I wanted to trade 1-for-1 and live off the top of my library to find "trumps" I'd rather play Jund. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On April 23 2013 14:05 MCMcEmcee wrote: I don't see how Grixis doesn't need to 1-for-1 as long as Esper when all you have is 1-for-1 removal for threats that are either cheaper than your removal, have haste/flash against your sorcery speed spells, or are naturally 2-for-1s and you have unreliable mass removal to catch back up against a fast start. It's not like your finishers in Grixis are much better than Esper's Drownyards + Jaces or UWR's Reckoners/Thundermaws/Aurelias/Jaces/Assembles/Niv-Mizzets/Pikes either, so I don't see why you would want to suffer so much more in turns 4-6 when you could be casting Verdicts and Revelations. If I wanted to trade 1-for-1 and live off the top of my library to find "trumps" I'd rather play Jund. I never said it was better than Esper or UWR or whatever, I just said they have the tools to make it a viable strategy. Esper does literal nothing towards winning the game for the first 8 turns at least. UWR is a tempo deck, it's Delver without the Delver and with Thundermaws instead. Bant splash Red for Wolf-Run would be the only control deck I'd actually feel comfortable playing because you have actual ways to kill your opponent and interact with the board other than by wrathing it. Grixis, on the other hand, 1 for 1s early with snapcaster and 2 mana removal spells, nukes the board with Mutilate/Mizzium at around turn 6-7, then drops a game ending trump. I mean on the play they can beat even a fast naya humans draw. T2 price their Champion, snapcaster block price their BTE/whatever, Dreadbore what's left, Overload Mizzium, drop Niv Mizzet or whatever your trump is on a nearly empty board. For card advantage, Think Twice/Desperate Ravings/Loothouse/whatever they use is not gonna be as good as Sphinx's, but it doen't have to be. I mean Esper is never going to beat a constant stream of creatures + pithing needle on Drownyard, at least Grixis interacts with the fucking board on T6-8. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On April 23 2013 23:50 Judicator wrote: Missing the point, I deleted that part in my previous post. You still need to stabilize. Like I said, go craft a hand and show how Grixis isn't living off the top card the entire game. Its kind of funny how you think Snapcaster on 4 is a good enough play. As for saying Esper does nothing for that long, definitely not. Agreed, this isn't SOM/INN standard where think twice, Alchemy and snapcaster mage are the back bones of a control deck. Revelation is so huge in these decks and the fact removal in Black is inefficient if you don't go White or deep into black for mutilate you have to run weird combinations of Ultimate price, dreadbore, tragic slip, and barter in blood. Edit: only reason grixis was viable in SOM/INN was Black Sun Zenith and Chandra....and Stensia I guess. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
There are so many problem cards that Grixis has to handle, and sadly enough, you want Pillars for them, which makes your mid range match up worse. You can't afford to trade 1 to 1 because you simply don't have the number of cards needed to handle the number of threats, hit your land drops, and play your trumps. Think about it this way, by your turn 4, assuming no mulligans, and you are on the play, you have exactly 10 cards possible. Assuming you miss 0 land drops, you have exactly 6 spells. If you kill everything they play, you have 2 spells left. Which is great right? Except you don't have any more lands to play trumps. You most likely took damage from the plethora of haste creatures in the format, so you have 2 spells leftover to play with and hoping to hit the perfect ratio of lands/spells. This is all assuming you have efficient and perfect 1 to 1 trades which can't be assumed in this format of Strangleroot Geists, Burning Tree (puts another creature into play), Avenger, Restoration Angel, Smiter (do you kill the smiter or their 2 drop), Reckoner, Thragtusk. Nor can you assume to dodge damage with haste/flash creatures, we don't have a Doom Blade/Go for the Throat choice. Now what happens if you were holding cards like Desperate Ravings and Think Twice, when do you ever get a chance to cast them and why would you ever cast them? You aren't hoping to hit a Verdict or a SRev, drawing and keeping a Niv is like wtf is the point. My first response pointed out the fact that you don't ever gain card advantage, to make up for the fact that you are going 1 for 1, until you flash those cards back, all the while you are staring down 6+ damage on the board. Now with any control deck running SRev, they can just power out of their predicament usually on turn 6 or 7 anyways to gain 3, draw 3 at a cost of a card and usually on the opponent's turn. If you don't have that option, you have no way to reload with card advantage efficiently, remember Thoughtflare's discard effect isn't a plus here since as I just laid out for you, you don't have the lands and the spells, so you are hoping to discard do nothings cards like Think Twice/Ravings/Alchemy. Edit: As for Pithing Needle, hilarious, I haven't lost to that card ever in like all my matches. It's a completely pointless card against Esper post-board and I would be happy if my opponent's drew it consistently. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
Saying it can never work and is trash simply isn't true, it's a perfectly fine T2 deck that has a 40/60 matchup against most of the field. You kept saying the lines don't exist, I say the lines DO exist but they aren't good. Now you're saying the lines aren't good, so we're agreeing, you're just not paying attention. Also I run 2 pithing needles mostly for Planeswalker focused decks and Vault of the Archangel, but I find it hilarious g2 when Esper has no answer to artifacts left in the deck and I needle both their win cons and finally win with a wolf runned Arbor Elf (has happened twice now). One more thing: when I say Esper doesn't do anything, I mean it's not a deck that ever tries to win, it just tries to stop the opponent from doing so. It's a hard control deck, its win cons are extremely limited and I hate that, it's not my kind of deck. I loved Solar Flare because it had some flair (haha) when it came to killing people and let me play giant monsters. Esper's just fuckin boring, you either always have the answer or you have the wrong answer/too many lands and just die after doing nothing. It's a good deck, yeah, but I'd never, ever play it. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
This is entirely speculative, but... I don't think it can be done because you're slower than aggro and will likely lose to thragtusk straight up. I don't see the control matchup being that bad for you, actually, since I see the deck filling a slot very similar to American aggro-control with rakdos's return instead of sphinx's rev. Agro is likely to be a very bad thing for you since you don't have that sphinx's rev. Combo/reanimator is probably going to be a good matchup for you post-sideboard. Being in topdeck mode is the territory of midrange decks like Jund because the card quality is so fantastic. Dropping the green for the blue means you're going to either drop into the control spectrum or tempo/aggro-control. Grixis is a pet deck, so I'm going to be brewing like a champ for the next few days, but I'm not going to say it will be anything other than just another T2 brew that might get a few FNM wins off surprise. Edit: Turn//Burn Far//Away is a thing. | ||
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