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n0ise
3452 Posts
On March 02 2013 22:44 MoonBear wrote: Was just a follow up to what you wrote haha oh ok ^^ BTW, the guy was saying 2 turns later, he draws before he untaps his loxodon smiter. Oh yeah, you can't untap that is that actually how it works? Can you actually make someone not untap something because he drew a card or even resolved an upkeep trigger/effect? Seems weird. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On March 03 2013 00:39 JingleHell wrote: I think you managed to not read a few important parts of what you responded to. I never got mana screwed. I got extort screwed. I tended to end up with 7 lands and no way to extort my one and two mana spells. I was surprised the lands worked out, but they were never my problem. Oh, and actually, mathematically speaking, it's a slightly better ratio than running 24 lands in a 60 card deck. You're being results oriented. 17 in 43 is a bad ratio for orzhov GC draft decks. 17 in 40 is the normal ratio (and a keyrune doesn't replace a 17th land in 40 cards), orzhov wouldn't mind 18 either. Nothing wrong with my statement just because lands were not an issue this one time. You can't really compare that to 24 in 60 either. Orzhov is somewhat comparable to control decks, which usually play 25-26 lands. Plus this is draft and not constructed. The curve of draft decks is typically top heavy compared to constructed decks since there just aren't enough good cheap spells available, so you need more lands than a constructed deck would need. Besides, I also mentioned that you should cut your card count down. Which increases the chance of you drawing extorters, assuming you don't cut those. You really can't complain about not drawing your good cards if you dilute your deck more than necessary. | ||
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NeonFlare
Finland1307 Posts
On March 03 2013 00:56 n0ise wrote: oh ok ^^ BTW, the guy was saying is that actually how it works? Can you actually make someone not untap something because he drew a card or even resolved an upkeep trigger/effect? Seems weird. Doesn't he need to reverse all the way back and fix the situation as you can't choose to not untap your stuff unless mentioned somewhere otherwise? | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On March 03 2013 01:12 NeonFlare wrote: Doesn't he need to reverse all the way back and fix the situation as you can't choose to not untap your stuff unless mentioned somewhere otherwise? Regular REL (aka FNM): Rewind game state to Untap Phase and untap. Then draw Loxodon Smiter again. In practise though you just untap and say "Oops my bad" because it has the same end result. No Warnings although you might get a Caution from a Judge (basically a finger wagging with no consequences attached). Competitive REL (aka proper tournaments): Must untap due to out of order sequencing. Rewind game to untap step, untap and then continue from there. Might be given a warning for Game Rule Violation and if any triggers were missed due to forgetting untap phase (e.g. "When this permanent untaps do XYZ" stuff) it might also result in an additional warning for Failure to Maintain Game State. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On March 03 2013 01:02 spinesheath wrote: You're being results oriented. 17 in 43 is a bad ratio for orzhov GC draft decks. 17 in 40 is the normal ratio (and a keyrune doesn't replace a 17th land in 40 cards), orzhov wouldn't mind 18 either. Nothing wrong with my statement just because lands were not an issue this one time. You can't really compare that to 24 in 60 either. Orzhov is somewhat comparable to control decks, which usually play 25-26 lands. Plus this is draft and not constructed. The curve of draft decks is typically top heavy compared to constructed decks since there just aren't enough good cheap spells available, so you need more lands than a constructed deck would need. Besides, I also mentioned that you should cut your card count down. Which increases the chance of you drawing extorters, assuming you don't cut those. You really can't complain about not drawing your good cards if you dilute your deck more than necessary. The keyrune became the 18th available mana. Not 17. Speaking of failing to read. I diluted my deck by 3 cards to keep "don't die now" and "kill shit now" effects. And yeah, I think I can complain. Let's try being rational instead of knee jerking for 6 whole fucking seconds. 3 extra cards. That difference is ~1% difference in the odds of drawing a keyword card with 6 triggers. From 15% to 13.95% specifically. Which, spread over 8-10 turns (that was my short games last night, not my average), suggests that not seeing those triggers is bad luck no matter how you cut it. That's ignoring the part where every time I scooped, I flipped the next 3 cards and still wouldn't see a trigger. No matter how I shuffled, those 6 cards had a tendency to be in the bottom half of my deck. And that just defies probability no matter what. | ||
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DCLXVI
United States729 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On March 03 2013 01:31 JingleHell wrote: The keyrune became the 18th available mana. Not 17. Speaking of failing to read. I diluted my deck by 3 cards to keep "don't die now" and "kill shit now" effects. And yeah, I think I can complain. Let's try being rational instead of knee jerking for 6 whole fucking seconds. 3 extra cards. That difference is ~1% difference in the odds of drawing a keyword card with 6 triggers. From 15% to 13.95% specifically. Which, spread over 8-10 turns (that was my short games last night, not my average), suggests that not seeing those triggers is bad luck no matter how you cut it. That's ignoring the part where every time I scooped, I flipped the next 3 cards and still wouldn't see a trigger. No matter how I shuffled, those 6 cards had a tendency to be in the bottom half of my deck. And that just defies probability no matter what. Stop acting like I'm attacking you personally. I'm not, calm down. I'm trying to help you improve your deckbuilding. Don't accuse me of failure to read when it's your own failure to read. "A keyrune doesn't replace a 17th land in 40 cards." You were running 43 cards, in which case you should be running at least 18 lands, more likely 19. In that case the keyrune doesn't replace the 18th/19th land. If you go from 15% chance to draw a trigger to 13.95%, that is actually a 7% decrease in chance to draw a trigger. That's not irrelevant. You are still being results oriented. It doesn't matter what happened in those games. Your land ratio was off, and your deck should most likely not have had more than 40 cards. "don't die now" spells aren't something you put into a deck as a 43rd card. Not even as a 41st. Trying to avoid death is not a good strategy in MTG. | ||
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Lyter
United Kingdom2145 Posts
On March 03 2013 01:53 DCLXVI wrote: Is there a reason why I can't seem to find a grand prix or scg open on twitch today? I like to keep one of those open in the background and watch a bit but neither seem to be on this weekend. gp yokohama I assume has finished for the day, and scgopen vegas starts in 15min | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On March 03 2013 02:08 spinesheath wrote: Stop acting like I'm attacking you personally. I'm not, calm down. I'm trying to help you improve your deckbuilding. Don't accuse me of failure to read when it's your own failure to read. "A keyrune doesn't replace a 17th land in 40 cards." You were running 43 cards, in which case you should be running at least 18 lands, more likely 19. In that case the keyrune doesn't replace the 18th/19th land. If you go from 15% chance to draw a trigger to 13.95%, that is actually a 7% decrease in chance to draw a trigger. That's not irrelevant. You are still being results oriented. It doesn't matter what happened in those games. Your land ratio was off, and your deck should most likely not have had more than 40 cards. "don't die now" spells aren't something you put into a deck as a 43rd card. Not even as a 41st. Trying to avoid death is not a good strategy in MTG. It is an attack. Unless you're mentally incompetent, the other option is refusing to read, which generally means you're just going on the offensive regarding something. If I nearly always had mana I couldn't use I clearly didn't have too few lands for my deck. Same problem at tonight's draft. Except not with lands. I had lands. I always had lands. Tons of lands. Thus "not with lands". The lack of extort triggers being a problem strongly suggests I wasn't extorting, which, in turn, requires mana. If I hadn't had the mana to extort, I wouldn't have said I didn't have the extort triggers to extort. I wouldn't have said "not with lands". Just stop. In particular, I was actually originally making an effort at a light hearted aside, and I certainly didn't ask for advice. If I'd asked for advice, you would have already failed the IQ test by insisting I needed more lands when I always had unused lands, and I wouldn't be listening to you. And yeah, cards that keep your creatures alive ARE good in a stalling deck. Just because there is a level of skill in a draft doesn't mean you can't get screwed by luck. Did I draft perfectly? Probably not. Does that mean that somehow it negates the fact that even on the game where I went through something like half my deck, without milling, I still didn't see extort triggers? No. The odds of that are silly. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
At the same time people are free to react, and you can't expect anyone here to pat you on the back when you say 'my 43 draft deck is not consistent'. It's your choice in the end, but again, it's normal that someone will have something to say about it. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
As for not seeing extorts, you guys seem to have the notion that all your cards are perfectly spread throughout your deck as your model when calculating probabilities when that probably isn't the case unless you guys randomized for a good period of time. Also, 6 extorters not as many as you think. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
I get that this is the online thread, but I searched around and could not find the card version of this thread. I figure there are people in here that are familiar with the cards, so I'll start here... A) Is there an equivalent thread here for MTG:card game? (I searched, believe it or not, but failed :/) B) When you want to start building a deck/collection, how can you obtain random cards? I like the idea of "drops"/"RNG", and I feel like buying a pack of cards that have randomly selected rares/uncommons/commons would be akin to finding drops in an online game like Diablo...kinda. So...I recall there being "booster packs" in which you'd find some predefined number of uncommons/commons/lands, which would be random. You might get a $50 card... you might get crap. Is this still true? Or, can you only obtain really good/expensive cards by buying them outright? Sorry for being off-topic since my curiosity right now is just for the actual cards. | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
On March 03 2013 02:28 Judicator wrote: If nobody is doing the coverage, nobody is doing the coverage. Kind of odd considering casting opens are at the heart of SCGs business model to get people onto their site. Looks like it's just technical issues resulting in a delay, scgopen will be casted. Yes, you can still get really good cards through booster packs if you are into the whole RNG thing, personally I would never buy a booster outside of a draft, as your odds just aren't very good to break even, let alone a profit with the current sets. Side note: MONO-BLACK WOLF RUN! | ||
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DCLXVI
United States729 Posts
On March 03 2013 03:35 NotSorry wrote: Kind of odd considering casting opens are at the heart of SCGs business model to get people onto their site. Looks like it's just technical issues resulting in a delay, scgopen will be casted. Yes, you can still get really good cards through booster packs if you are into the whole RNG thing, personally I would never buy a booster outside of a draft, as your odds just aren't very good to break even, let alone a profit with the current sets. Side note: MONO-BLACK WOLF RUN! I take it wizards didn't feel like casting the GP? I didn't see the videos up on twitch. Is twoo really playing that mono black wolf run? I thought for sure he would play the assemble deck. -Falldown A great way to get new cards (from the recent set) is to attend a draft at a store and when it is over see if anyone is willing to give you some of the cards they drafted. A few people only care about the expensive cards they have and are happy to give you the rest. While cracking booster packs is fun, it is a bit too expensive for many people. Still, you could open that 20-50$ card.... and you might want to calm down a little jinglehell, nobody is always right and you most certainly are not right now. | ||
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Louuster
Canada2869 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
(not really) | ||
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
its a cheap deck focused on detaining and enchanting. White and Blue, am seeing a bit of minor success with it and have changed some things. Looking for outside input and suggestions on my fun cheap deck that I have been playing with. Am not interested in any cards that wont allow me to play standard. Basically my current deck is a blue white control/enchantment deck. I havent lost with it yet, despite not having some cards I want to eventually put in it. I have enough control to basically control the board most of the game at least so far. And with enchantments, a 2-2 turns into a 18-18 pretty fast thanks to the way Ethereal armor works. Basically its just super fast pressure, while i enchant my creatures up, and keep any of their big stuff off the board, or i Bait it and kill it with Downsize. While Stealer of Secrets lets me get a lot of fast extra cards for the most part. + Show Spoiler + 4 Ethereal armor 4 Pacifism 4 Divine Favor 4 Gift of Orzhova 4 Stealer of Secrets 4 downsize 4 Inaction Injunction 4 New Prahv Guildmage 4 Azorius Charm 4 Judge's Familiar was my deck then. New deck = 4 Downsize 4 Ethereal Armor 4 Hands of Binding 2 inaction injunction 3 hussar Patrol 4 Invisible stalker 12 Island 3 judges familiar 4 New Prahv Guildmage 2 Pacifism 12 Plains 4 Spectral Flight 4 Stealer of Secrets hands of binding - This especially is my newest addition and has done nothing but win me matches and make people rage every game Invisible stalker - these are just lolworthy in this deck. I throw 2-3 Hands of binding on this thing... and it will simultaneously lock down their entire board by itself judges familiar -some people have told me to drop this card, but in honesty this thing has won me 5+ games by itself. Got one of these off the start, had 3 enchantments on it by turn 5, was hitting for 8/8 by then, and had them on a 1 turn timer. Seems like a 1 cost flyer is kinda hard to beat for most people at least IMO so far. New Prahv Guildmage (have really grown to love the utility of this card. Another detain, and can give flying, if i decide to throw a cipher, or enchants on a nonflying or something that would normally be blocked.) Pacifism wish i had 4 of these tbh, because ATM i am generally able to lock down the first 4-5 creatures of most decks, unless they save for counters-spells Spectral Flight - This card is just so strong for a 2 cost. As well as being an enchantment that helps me etheral armor. I have literally won by turn 4 with nothin but a Judges Familiar with 3 of these, and an ethereal armor stacked on it, and a pacifism on the other side. My 1/1 was a 11/11 and just annihilating health. (yes i know throwing a flying enchant on a flyer is kinda silly... but I just saw an opening for quick damage) I am really happy with it. Just a cheap fun deck. I joined MTGO, with the expectatioin of buying a top level deck and doing it that way, but I am actually having quite a bit of fun building cheap decks, and seeing how they fare. Also am now thinkin about trying a build around the "exalted" effect, as I have seem some decks with it do some pretty wicked stuff. | ||
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DCLXVI
United States729 Posts
I am not sure i like the downsize/hussar patrol too much. I would rather play stuff like doomed traveler, arrest, more inaction injunction, even sensory deprivation. | ||
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