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bobbob
Profile Joined December 2009
United States368 Posts
January 04 2012 09:27 GMT
#2341
I've seen board positions where Moonmist was a blowout, yet I just don't feel that there are enough good targets to make it a significant improvement over a fog. It can also be awkward playing it on your turn as you very often want to cast another spell, causing all your werewolves to flip back on their next turn. It does have some uses vs fliers since it often turns into a race, and the surprise turn can win games. That said, it feels more of a SB card for when you are racing.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 04 2012 14:39 GMT
#2342
On January 04 2012 14:56 deth2munkies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?



I can give you the perfect example. I had a game with a slow draw, he had Rebuke and Bonds of Faith for my first 2 plays and ended up pinging me down with fliers while I was getting in for 3 with a Kessig Wolf. Eventually, I got on the board with Shepherd and Terror. He had 2 midnight haunting tokens and an Abby Griffin left at this point and I was at 8 life while he was at 10. If I had drawn Moonmist instead of 3 lands, I would have won that game easily, giving me a turn of fog from his fliers, then a huge swing back.

Sure, Volley was just as much of an out, so were other cards, but Moonmist was a viable out I could have drawn at any point in 2-3 turns and won the game.


Um, what?

2 tokens and Griffin is 4 damage per turn, Shepherd and Terror wins that race from 8 easily... on top of the fact he needs to keep playing spells to keep your wolves in human form or flip them back...I don't see why you wouldn't have won that game anyways. You both on are on 2 turn clocks. He can't just chump without having another creature and win. So...what did Moonmist do for you there again?

And what kind of dumb logic is "drawing Moonmist instead of 3 lands" ?

Go think about how easy it is to play around Moonmist. If he swings with just 2 creatures and leaving two blockers (Abbey with vigi) back, your Moonmist does very little.
Get it by your hands...
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-04 17:30:18
January 04 2012 16:09 GMT
#2343
On January 04 2012 23:39 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2012 14:56 deth2munkies wrote:
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?



I can give you the perfect example. I had a game with a slow draw, he had Rebuke and Bonds of Faith for my first 2 plays and ended up pinging me down with fliers while I was getting in for 3 with a Kessig Wolf. Eventually, I got on the board with Shepherd and Terror. He had 2 midnight haunting tokens and an Abby Griffin left at this point and I was at 8 life while he was at 10. If I had drawn Moonmist instead of 3 lands, I would have won that game easily, giving me a turn of fog from his fliers, then a huge swing back.

Sure, Volley was just as much of an out, so were other cards, but Moonmist was a viable out I could have drawn at any point in 2-3 turns and won the game.


Um, what?

2 tokens and Griffin is 4 damage per turn, Shepherd and Terror wins that race from 8 easily... on top of the fact he needs to keep playing spells to keep your wolves in human form or flip them back...I don't see why you wouldn't have won that game anyways. You both on are on 2 turn clocks. He can't just chump without having another creature and win. So...what did Moonmist do for you there again?

And what kind of dumb logic is "drawing Moonmist instead of 3 lands" ?

Go think about how easy it is to play around Moonmist. If he swings with just 2 creatures and leaving two blockers (Abbey with vigi) back, your Moonmist does very little.


Nvm, got games mixed up. He swung me for 4, played something irrelevant (caravan vigil or something), then passed the turn. At which point it was Moonmist, Volley, Geistflame, or death. Moonmist was still an out.

Moonmist will always be an out when you're getting raced with fliers and it does combo with Curse of the Nightly Hunt to create blowouts.

You just don't want to be reasonable so there's not much of a point to continue.
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
January 04 2012 16:25 GMT
#2344
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?

Moonmist is a reach unless you're planning for a mass flip of your humans all at once. Even in that case, it's exceptionally gimmicky and will only be a true positive if you have multiple humans in play.

Moonmist does not fit the deck. Every card in standard should benefit your other 39~ non land cards. If it doesn't, it's a waste of a card slot, and should be replaced by something with better synergy. This is universally true when it comes to standard play.
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 04 2012 17:15 GMT
#2345
On January 05 2012 01:09 deth2munkies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2012 23:39 Judicator wrote:
On January 04 2012 14:56 deth2munkies wrote:
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?



I can give you the perfect example. I had a game with a slow draw, he had Rebuke and Bonds of Faith for my first 2 plays and ended up pinging me down with fliers while I was getting in for 3 with a Kessig Wolf. Eventually, I got on the board with Shepherd and Terror. He had 2 midnight haunting tokens and an Abby Griffin left at this point and I was at 8 life while he was at 10. If I had drawn Moonmist instead of 3 lands, I would have won that game easily, giving me a turn of fog from his fliers, then a huge swing back.

Sure, Volley was just as much of an out, so were other cards, but Moonmist was a viable out I could have drawn at any point in 2-3 turns and won the game.


Um, what?

2 tokens and Griffin is 4 damage per turn, Shepherd and Terror wins that race from 8 easily... on top of the fact he needs to keep playing spells to keep your wolves in human form or flip them back...I don't see why you wouldn't have won that game anyways. You both on are on 2 turn clocks. He can't just chump without having another creature and win. So...what did Moonmist do for you there again?

And what kind of dumb logic is "drawing Moonmist instead of 3 lands" ?

Go think about how easy it is to play around Moonmist. If he swings with just 2 creatures and leaving two blockers (Abbey with vigi) back, your Moonmist does very little.


I frogot the double travel prep. He played that on the last turn to kill me. Again, Moonmist would have saved me.

I'm not even going to respond to you anymore, it's clear you don't want to be reasonable.


I am being unreasonable? When multiple people have told you how underwhelming the card is? When multiple draft videos show people cutting Moonmist with less than 10 wolves?

Congrats, you found the one situation where the guy had double removal and you drew poorly and moonmist was an out. It very much could have been winnable if you weren't in that situation in the first place. How often does that situation turn up?

My point is that yes, Moonmist can be great, but MOST of the time it's terrible. Thus making it a mediocre card at best and terrible card with only 7 targets. That doesn't warrant a spot in the deck, certainly not in that deck with 7 targets.
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 17:53 GMT
#2346
On January 05 2012 01:25 Durp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?

Moonmist is a reach unless you're planning for a mass flip of your humans all at once. Even in that case, it's exceptionally gimmicky and will only be a true positive if you have multiple humans in play.

Moonmist does not fit the deck. Every card in standard should benefit your other 39~ non land cards. If it doesn't, it's a waste of a card slot, and should be replaced by something with better synergy. This is universally true when it comes to standard play.


Yeah, my Tormented Pariah and Darkthicket Wolf is just not cutting it either in Standard. He's really struggling because it just doesn't meet that universal truth of Standard.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Orpheos
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1663 Posts
January 04 2012 23:02 GMT
#2347
i feel like most of the time id rather have a spidery grasp or rangers guile than moonmist. its definitely gimmicky and its definitely a "23rd card that you wish you could cut" kind of deal.
SMD
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada627 Posts
January 06 2012 00:06 GMT
#2348
Found this decklist doing well in block dailies, and though about getting into block.

Main Deck

8 Island
10 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Reckless Waif
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Brimstone Volley
3 Curiosity
4 Devil's Play
3 Furor of the Bitten
2 Silent Departure
3 Silver-Inlaid Dagger
4 Spectral Flight

Sideboard
3 Blasphemous Act
2 Butcher's Cleaver
2 Dissipate
4 Geistflame
2 Rolling Temblor
2 Stitched Drake


a couple questions:

Is there a better budget deck than this?
Are the Snapcasters or Sulfur falls reasonably replaceable?
Why the stitched drake in SB?

Also wondering what other Constructed Formats are cheap to build a reasonable deck for some good fun.

thanks!
huameng
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States1133 Posts
January 06 2012 03:07 GMT
#2349
I didn't know that deck played snapcaster mage o_O I've played it a few times in the dailies and 2-mans and I don't think Snapcaster is very good in it -- he only has 10 spells. He is very replaceable, I think. The Sulfur Falls, however, are not. Without them you just won't be able to cast your spells, and this deck really wants to have a stalker attacking and enchanted on turn 3.

+ Show Spoiler [This RU list] +

Main Deck
60 cards

10 Island
8 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
22 lands

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Stromkirk Noble
12 creatures

4 Brimstone Volley
1 Butcher's Cleaver
3 Curiosity
4 Devil's Play
2 Dissipate
4 Furor of the Bitten
2 Geistflame
1 Silent Departure
1 Silver-Inlaid Dagger
4 Spectral Flight
26 other spells

Sideboard
2 Blasphemous Act
1 Butcher's Cleaver
1 Dissipate
2 Geistflame
2 Silent Departure
2 Stitched Drake
3 Undead Alchemist
2 Witchbane Orb
15 sideboard cards
is closer to what I see when I play, and I think it's fine although not great. I am playing RW aggro right now and I think it's a good deck and it's not very expensive. I went 3-1 with this in a daily a day or two ago:

+ Show Spoiler [RW aggro] +


Main Deck
60 cards

4 Clifftop Retreat
7 Mountain
13 Plains
24 lands

4 Champion of the Parish
4 Cloistered Youth
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Elite Inquisitor
3 Fiend Hunter
2 Geist-Honored Monk
4 Instigator Gang
25 creatures

4 Brimstone Volley
3 Devil's Play
4 Midnight Haunting
11 other spells

Sideboard
2 Blasphemous Act
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Geistflame
2 Mentor of the Meek
2 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Silverchase Fox
2 Slayer of the Wicked
15 sideboard cards


If you don't play with Mikaeus it's probably like $10, and with those 2 Mikaeuses it's like $20, which is about as cheap as it gets. I dunno what your budget is, but even Snapcaster is only $8 or so online, so if you are willing to put down $50 or so you can play any deck that doesn't run a bunch of planeswalkers, so if you wanna play Burning Vengeance or make a billion spiders, that should be pretty cheap too.
skating
bobbob
Profile Joined December 2009
United States368 Posts
January 06 2012 04:14 GMT
#2350
Stitched Drake has higher toughness than most creatures people run, and doesnt die to non morbid brimstone volley. It's solid vs red decks in block.
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
January 06 2012 04:56 GMT
#2351
If you want a fun constructed format, try EDH, otherwise known as commander. Get a few friends into it and play it with 4 to 5 people for best results. Its meant to be a casual multiplayer format so just have fun with it. You don't need every dual-land that ever existed in a multicolored deck and it will still run well.
MCMcEmcee
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1609 Posts
January 06 2012 09:15 GMT
#2352
GP Austin this weekend wooooo
[iHs]MCMcEmcee@UFO | のヮの
Shotcoder
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2316 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-07 14:03:16
January 07 2012 14:01 GMT
#2353
Went 4-1 at FNM last night. Got completely steam rolled by RB aggro. Deck feels like a nightmare to play against. It just has so many efficient threats and the removal package is insanely good too.

edit: I've also seen LSV's newest Esper Gauntlet and I can't help but disagree with his feelings on the Sphinx. I haven't lost a game when it hits the board. even if they vapor snag it. I don't play it until I have that counter back up or have the life to play it into snag anyways so I really don't see the issue. Plus I have yet to lose a game when drawing cards off of Sphinx.
Shotcoder - C+ BW Terran, Gold LoL(ADC Main)
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-07 15:03:07
January 07 2012 14:59 GMT
#2354
I am about with LSV on Sphinx, playing Sphinx on 6 and getting it vapor snagged means they just time walked me for U in their upkeep and dealt me a very significant 1 point of damage. The problem with the match up against Illusions is that their Mana Leaks are almost always good against Esper.

If you are waiting till 6 to cast Day, your counters are just dead to a multitude of cards or combination of cards if they have 4 or 5 lands up, so what do you do then? Wait while they have you on a significant clock? Same goes for Sphinx except is even later (turn 8) and you are probably even further behind in life and board. Illusions can just literally sit back after sticking 2 creatures on turns 1-2, then Esper is just straight up under the gun the rest of the match. Sphinx is absolutely useless against tempo decks.

If you aren't finding yourself in those situations against Illusions, then you are either very lucky or the Illusion pilots are terrible.

Also before you bring up hurhur Doom Blade their creatures, they drop a Moorland Haunt or Geist, you are in the same position as before if not worse.

Edit:

Read the rest of LSV's updates to that list, I did something very similar to that Esper list to eliminate some of your godawful lines of play against Illusions and various aggro lists.
Get it by your hands...
OhNoItsTheMunch
Profile Joined June 2009
United States96 Posts
January 07 2012 15:27 GMT
#2355
Hey Teamliquid,

So I just started playing standard with some friends from home as of about a month ago, and I've been trying to put together my own decks. Just recently put together a zombie deck, but for a lot of reasons, I feel unconfortable. Namely it was so cheap to build, but seems to play so strongly. Since this thread seems active with a lot of opinionated members, I was hoping to get some advice on my decklist.

+ Show Spoiler +

21 Swamp

2 Skinrender
4 Cemetery Reaper
2 Ghoulraiser
4 Diregraf Ghoul
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Walking Corpse
2 Unbreathing Horde

2 Despise
2 Distress
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Doom Blade
4 Ghoulcaller's Chant
3 Altar's Reap
2 Endless Ranks of the Dead
2 Demonmail Hauberk
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
January 07 2012 18:56 GMT
#2356
You sure its a good idea to run only 21 land? Your curve is pretty standard so that might be a bit risky when you have no ramp of any kind. Its fine for a casual deck, but I think you will find that competitive decks will crush you.
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
January 07 2012 20:09 GMT
#2357
On January 08 2012 03:56 dignity wrote:
You sure its a good idea to run only 21 land? Your curve is pretty standard so that might be a bit risky when you have no ramp of any kind. Its fine for a casual deck, but I think you will find that competitive decks will crush you.


This was the biggest mistake when I first started building. The thought that 1 land for every three draws is just so compelling.
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
OhNoItsTheMunch
Profile Joined June 2009
United States96 Posts
January 07 2012 20:17 GMT
#2358
This is a problem that I've actually run into when I've started building, and subsequently playing around with sideboarding and such. I can get behind the idea of identifying a problem, such as: You need more land. This could really go for anything: I want to put in this card. But then how do you decide what gets the axe?
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 08 2012 01:36 GMT
#2359
As much as I want monoblack to be a deck, it's not. I would cut the deck.
Get it by your hands...
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
January 08 2012 06:33 GMT
#2360
I miss MBC...
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