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Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 03 2012 01:19 GMT
#2321
7 wolves that wouldn't die in combat anyways. Moonmist is underwhelming because werewolves usually won't die in combat anyways or will trade very favorably. The problem is that it doesn't help you put a game away like Vampiric Fury does, hell I would play Full Moon's Rise before I even consider running this card.

I don't like it unless I really have like upwards of 10 wolves to make it a consistent combat trick that I wouldn't side out after a game provided my opponent isn't brain dead.
Get it by your hands...
MCMcEmcee
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1609 Posts
January 03 2012 01:19 GMT
#2322
Grime is a good sideboard card for matchups where the board stalls out a lot. If both of you are just stalled on the ground, Gutter Grime makes combat an absolute nightmare for your opponent.
[iHs]MCMcEmcee@UFO | のヮの
bobbob
Profile Joined December 2009
United States368 Posts
January 03 2012 01:35 GMT
#2323
With only 6 or 7 werewolves, I still think moonmist is mediocre. It has the potential to be a blowout, but daybreak ranger doesn't do much attacking, it's only really strong with the, paraiah, outcasts, and mystics, since you would actually be able to block them. Otherwise it's like a fog with a bit of extra relevance.
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 03 2012 02:26 GMT
#2324
So to be more clear, I'd rather play gutter grime than moonmist but...i think the question here is moonmist vs pitchburn devils. Devils does work, that's for sure. But the high variable swings of moonmist - with his deck and curve, impresses me on first appearances.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 03 2012 02:38 GMT
#2325
So to be more clear, I'd rather play gutter grime than moonmist but...i think the question here is moonmist vs pitchburn devils. Devils does work, that's for sure. But the high variable swings of moonmist - with his deck and curve, impresses me on first appearances.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 03 2012 02:44 GMT
#2326
Devils over Mist, anyday. Rage Thrower/Pitchburn Devils squashes lines of play for the opponent very effectively (more so for the former than the latter) once they are in the red zone. Grime seems meh, Emcee already pointed out where it would be good. In any case, 3x Brimstone Volleys makes any deck good.
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 03 2012 03:11 GMT
#2327
Curving out with cultist, devil and rage thrower can be devious. But I dunno, you guys are probably right.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
January 03 2012 04:07 GMT
#2328
Is G-Relentless a FotM for wolf-run decks or is he actually decent in them?
Together but separate, like oatmeal
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 09:03:29
January 03 2012 06:00 GMT
#2329
Think ball lightning. Now give it fire breathing. Now give it death touch. But wait, there's more. You can do this every turn. You can also tutor for creatures by sacrificing these ball lightnings. You can also use a weird graveyard overrun. You can also remove a chump blocker, although this is usually a one time use.

All this with 2 cards. Minus the haste.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 16:10:24
January 03 2012 16:07 GMT
#2330
On January 03 2012 10:19 Judicator wrote:
7 wolves that wouldn't die in combat anyways. Moonmist is underwhelming because werewolves usually won't die in combat anyways or will trade very favorably. The problem is that it doesn't help you put a game away like Vampiric Fury does, hell I would play Full Moon's Rise before I even consider running this card.

I don't like it unless I really have like upwards of 10 wolves to make it a consistent combat trick that I wouldn't side out after a game provided my opponent isn't brain dead.


That's just not true, especially with Kruin Outlaw in the deck. Mainphase Moonmist = werewolves can't be blocked means instakill from a stable board of humans. Not only that, but given I don't have any Villagers, only my Grizzled Outcasts had more than 2 toughness, so they'd be stopped singlehandedly by a Silverchase Fox or Elder Cathar unless I Timewalked myself to flip them.

It may be a mediocre trick, but as a mini-overrun it's quite good.

I only sided it out against the BV player for Gutter Grime because he had 2 occultists, 2 delvers, and a Skaab Goliath as his only creatures.

Also, on Devils: If I have 5 mana and haven't killed them yet, they're at low life. I killed someone by blocking with devils then Brimstone Volleying off the morbid for 8 damage. They also closed out a game of the finals where he was at 3 with no creatures. The reach really makes a difference. Honestly, the most awkward card in the deck was Rage Thrower. He mostly just ate a piece of removal the turn he came in, I think he only activated once all draft. He normally just sat in my hand while I played out everything else in my deck with 4-5 lands.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 16:40:36
January 03 2012 16:31 GMT
#2331
It's not a mini overrun, it doesn't keep the opponent from blocking. It's something that is played around very easily and only terrible draft players run into it after seeing it once. You only have 7 wolves, but you have 3 Brimstone Volleys. I honestly would have played Nightly Hunt in that deck provided there is nothing else if you are that worried about blockers. Pass turn, flip your wolves, block/trade, 5 them in the face, 7 or 9 if Rage Thrower is out, 8 if you traded a Devils. The only reason why your deck is difficult to handle is because of the Volleys not because of RG wolves (which is a mediocre archetype at best).

I drafted a RUB deck 2 weeks ago with 3 Volleys and about 11 creatures. I was stuck on 3 lands all night and only dropped a game. Volley just creates better lines of play. Moonmist is just whatever, I would rather get in damage guaranteed than some cute trick that would only work once.
Get it by your hands...
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 17:22:45
January 03 2012 17:19 GMT
#2332
A friend and I have been running a GU counter-wolves deck at our local game store. It runs 4 Mayors and some various ways to clone it (phyrexian metamorph, phantasmal image) and beats down with wolf tokens. Mana leaks for counters, Thrun for kill decks, and BoP for some ramp. Gitaxian Probe and Vapor Snag are my one cost drops and help a lot with the curve. Actually won our last FNM!

On a different note to the thread topic a bit (since this thread is MTG: Online) I thought some other Magic enthusiasts would be able to appreciate the first few pages of our main rare binder (3 person shared collection) - I will put it in spoilers. If anyone has an alpha mana vault, PM me I'm down for trades hahaha

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading] - top to bottom - Foil Ajani, Koth, Gideon Jura (there are 3 more underneath that one), 3 garruk relentless (one is foil) Jace memory Adept, Elspeth, Elspeth

[image loading] - top to bottom - 3x Liliana of the Veil, foil Liliana of the Veil, Foil Jace the Mind Sculptor, foil garruk, bottom row is 3 more Lilianas

[image loading] - 3x Bolas (middle one is foil), Hero, Crusader, Elish Norn, more Liliana

[image loading] - Left page: Snapcaster Mages Right page: Daybreak Ranger, Primeval Titan (1 shiny one regular), 3 birthing pod

[image loading] - Progenitus, Foil Blighsteel, 4 sensei's divining tops (Kamigawa print) Chrome Mox, 2x Mox Opal

[image loading] - One of my personal favs of the collection; foil Gaea's Cradle

And the investment page
[image loading]
(In total this binder has 27 Snapcaster Mages, sadly only one is shiny)

Other rare binder has our harder to come by bombs; Foil Swords to Plowshares, Foil Demonic Tutor, Foil Sol Ring, Foil Sliver Overlord (original), Tarmogoyf, Foil Damnation/Wrath of God and some other awesome stuff.


Anyone got any P9 or other rare bombs to share!?
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 17:44:01
January 03 2012 17:20 GMT
#2333
On January 04 2012 01:31 Judicator wrote:
It's not a mini overrun, it doesn't keep the opponent from blocking. It's something that is played around very easily and only terrible draft players run into it after seeing it once. You only have 7 wolves, but you have 3 Brimstone Volleys. I honestly would have played Nightly Hunt in that deck provided there is nothing else if you are that worried about blockers. Pass turn, flip your wolves, block/trade, 5 them in the face, 7 or 9 if Rage Thrower is out, 8 if you traded a Devils. The only reason why your deck is difficult to handle is because of the Volleys not because of RG wolves (which is a mediocre archetype at best).

I drafted a RUB deck 2 weeks ago with 3 Volleys and about 11 creatures. I was stuck on 3 lands all night and only dropped a game. Volley just creates better lines of play. Moonmist is just whatever, I would rather get in damage guaranteed than some cute trick that would only work once.


Do you really not know what this card does?

Nightly Hunts come in against stall decks that play Fortress Crabs and the like, nobody did. Maindeck they're just worse than Stalked Prey or Moonmist. Not only that, but by the time you have Rage Thrower and the like out they either have a bunch of little fliers or guys just as big as yours because he's 6 freaking mana.

There's no way in hell that I'd ever play Moonmist over Volley, so i don't know what you're on about for the rest of the post.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 03 2012 18:13 GMT
#2334
I know what that card does. I also know that nobody plays it with 7 wolves. I also know it's a trick that isn't that hard to play around once you know it's there. I also know that you are running 3x Volleys which works better with Nightly Hunts since you in almost every situation would trade better or come out ahead. What I am saying is that Hunt > Moonmist. The card is just meh in every situation with just 7 wolves. I already stated the lines of play that you would have with Hunt over Moonmist.

Most decks wouldn't want to attack you in the first place and later on they would be swinging anyways. Hunt makes it harder to play around devils and thrower, along with morbid Brimstone. So tell me again why you would run Moonmist with 7 wolves over Hunt again?
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 02:42 GMT
#2335
Why do you keep saying 7? He has 9 wolves on that list, no? Moonmist interacts with 9 of his creatures (or...un-interacts...?) It's still just a combat trick but it's a big swing. You basically take away a whole turn in a race.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 04 2012 03:03 GMT
#2336
One sided Fog effects are irrelevant. If the card read prevent all damage dealt except by Wolves and Werewolves, would you ever consider playing it? The transform effect is the relevant one at instant speed.

Let me break this down...

You take a whole turn in the race, or you can completely squash their lines of play when they're in the red zone which they need to be anyways with decks like this. Basically, think about where Moonmist is good and how often that is relevant. It seems cool to flip 3 werewolves or one-side fog them, but is it consistent and is it relevant? Like I can't think of a situation where Hunt would be worse than Moonmist, but I can think of multiple situations and board states where Hunt is better than Moonmist. Especially with only 7 relevant targets.
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 03:58 GMT
#2337
You're strawman-ing me. I would not play a card that said "Prevent all combat damage dealt except by Wolves and Werewolves." But that's not what Moonmist is. Just because it has one part doesn't mean the other part doesn't matter.

Nothing is irrelevant in Limited. You have to make everything work for you. I would never think that you would ignore text on a Magic card because you think it's "irrelevant." You know it isn't. Limited Magic is consistently won on the back of relatively weak cards with small interactions. It's ridiculous that you'd say that there's only 7 relevant targets. Every target is relevant.

Can you accept that half the time you play you are losing and that half the time you play you are winning? Is this blanket statement fair? What if I gave it a plus minus of 10% to just give it some intellectual leg room. What does Curse of the Nightly Hunt do for you when you're losing? I can think of situations where one card is better than the other, because that's what limited is. If you play enough, you'll have enough scenarios where it'll matter. Moonmist is probably better than Curse of the Nightly Hunt. That's my opinion, I suppose.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 04 2012 05:46 GMT
#2338
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?
Get it by your hands...
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
January 04 2012 05:56 GMT
#2339
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?



I can give you the perfect example. I had a game with a slow draw, he had Rebuke and Bonds of Faith for my first 2 plays and ended up pinging me down with fliers while I was getting in for 3 with a Kessig Wolf. Eventually, I got on the board with Shepherd and Terror. He had 2 midnight haunting tokens and an Abby Griffin left at this point and I was at 8 life while he was at 10. If I had drawn Moonmist instead of 3 lands, I would have won that game easily, giving me a turn of fog from his fliers, then a huge swing back.

Sure, Volley was just as much of an out, so were other cards, but Moonmist was a viable out I could have drawn at any point in 2-3 turns and won the game.
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 07:21 GMT
#2340
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?


When people play their own dumb combat tricks. When the other creature has first strike or equipment. Regardless, I can't convince you because I still remember our conversation about Forbidden Alchemy vs Think Twice. It's like you've never been in a situation where combat math works out to one turn.

And is my number that wrong? Unless you're some pro, you aren't winning much more than 50% of your game, by which I mean 6% or 8% more. In any given random situation, you're either winning or losing, or tied, I suppose. I'd say it's about half and half.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
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