• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 23:29
CET 05:29
KST 13:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book1Clem wins HomeStory Cup 287HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win2RSL Season 4 announced for March-April7Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win3Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Clem wins HomeStory Cup 28 How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview Stellar Fest "01" Jersey Charity Auction
Tourneys
HomeStory Cup 28 $5,000 WardiTV Winter Championship 2026 RSL Season 4 announced for March-April PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 510 Safety Violation Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Gypsy to Korea StarCraft player reflex TE scores Can someone share very abbreviated BW cliffnotes? 2024 BoxeR's birthday message
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Diablo 2 thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread EVE Corporation Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Play, Watch, Drink: Esports …
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1429 users

Magic: The Gathering - Page 117

Forum Index > General Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 115 116 117 118 119 665 Next
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 03 2012 01:19 GMT
#2321
7 wolves that wouldn't die in combat anyways. Moonmist is underwhelming because werewolves usually won't die in combat anyways or will trade very favorably. The problem is that it doesn't help you put a game away like Vampiric Fury does, hell I would play Full Moon's Rise before I even consider running this card.

I don't like it unless I really have like upwards of 10 wolves to make it a consistent combat trick that I wouldn't side out after a game provided my opponent isn't brain dead.
Get it by your hands...
MCMcEmcee
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1609 Posts
January 03 2012 01:19 GMT
#2322
Grime is a good sideboard card for matchups where the board stalls out a lot. If both of you are just stalled on the ground, Gutter Grime makes combat an absolute nightmare for your opponent.
[iHs]MCMcEmcee@UFO | のヮの
bobbob
Profile Joined December 2009
United States368 Posts
January 03 2012 01:35 GMT
#2323
With only 6 or 7 werewolves, I still think moonmist is mediocre. It has the potential to be a blowout, but daybreak ranger doesn't do much attacking, it's only really strong with the, paraiah, outcasts, and mystics, since you would actually be able to block them. Otherwise it's like a fog with a bit of extra relevance.
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 03 2012 02:26 GMT
#2324
So to be more clear, I'd rather play gutter grime than moonmist but...i think the question here is moonmist vs pitchburn devils. Devils does work, that's for sure. But the high variable swings of moonmist - with his deck and curve, impresses me on first appearances.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 03 2012 02:38 GMT
#2325
So to be more clear, I'd rather play gutter grime than moonmist but...i think the question here is moonmist vs pitchburn devils. Devils does work, that's for sure. But the high variable swings of moonmist - with his deck and curve, impresses me on first appearances.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 03 2012 02:44 GMT
#2326
Devils over Mist, anyday. Rage Thrower/Pitchburn Devils squashes lines of play for the opponent very effectively (more so for the former than the latter) once they are in the red zone. Grime seems meh, Emcee already pointed out where it would be good. In any case, 3x Brimstone Volleys makes any deck good.
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 03 2012 03:11 GMT
#2327
Curving out with cultist, devil and rage thrower can be devious. But I dunno, you guys are probably right.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
January 03 2012 04:07 GMT
#2328
Is G-Relentless a FotM for wolf-run decks or is he actually decent in them?
Together but separate, like oatmeal
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 09:03:29
January 03 2012 06:00 GMT
#2329
Think ball lightning. Now give it fire breathing. Now give it death touch. But wait, there's more. You can do this every turn. You can also tutor for creatures by sacrificing these ball lightnings. You can also use a weird graveyard overrun. You can also remove a chump blocker, although this is usually a one time use.

All this with 2 cards. Minus the haste.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 16:10:24
January 03 2012 16:07 GMT
#2330
On January 03 2012 10:19 Judicator wrote:
7 wolves that wouldn't die in combat anyways. Moonmist is underwhelming because werewolves usually won't die in combat anyways or will trade very favorably. The problem is that it doesn't help you put a game away like Vampiric Fury does, hell I would play Full Moon's Rise before I even consider running this card.

I don't like it unless I really have like upwards of 10 wolves to make it a consistent combat trick that I wouldn't side out after a game provided my opponent isn't brain dead.


That's just not true, especially with Kruin Outlaw in the deck. Mainphase Moonmist = werewolves can't be blocked means instakill from a stable board of humans. Not only that, but given I don't have any Villagers, only my Grizzled Outcasts had more than 2 toughness, so they'd be stopped singlehandedly by a Silverchase Fox or Elder Cathar unless I Timewalked myself to flip them.

It may be a mediocre trick, but as a mini-overrun it's quite good.

I only sided it out against the BV player for Gutter Grime because he had 2 occultists, 2 delvers, and a Skaab Goliath as his only creatures.

Also, on Devils: If I have 5 mana and haven't killed them yet, they're at low life. I killed someone by blocking with devils then Brimstone Volleying off the morbid for 8 damage. They also closed out a game of the finals where he was at 3 with no creatures. The reach really makes a difference. Honestly, the most awkward card in the deck was Rage Thrower. He mostly just ate a piece of removal the turn he came in, I think he only activated once all draft. He normally just sat in my hand while I played out everything else in my deck with 4-5 lands.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 16:40:36
January 03 2012 16:31 GMT
#2331
It's not a mini overrun, it doesn't keep the opponent from blocking. It's something that is played around very easily and only terrible draft players run into it after seeing it once. You only have 7 wolves, but you have 3 Brimstone Volleys. I honestly would have played Nightly Hunt in that deck provided there is nothing else if you are that worried about blockers. Pass turn, flip your wolves, block/trade, 5 them in the face, 7 or 9 if Rage Thrower is out, 8 if you traded a Devils. The only reason why your deck is difficult to handle is because of the Volleys not because of RG wolves (which is a mediocre archetype at best).

I drafted a RUB deck 2 weeks ago with 3 Volleys and about 11 creatures. I was stuck on 3 lands all night and only dropped a game. Volley just creates better lines of play. Moonmist is just whatever, I would rather get in damage guaranteed than some cute trick that would only work once.
Get it by your hands...
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 17:22:45
January 03 2012 17:19 GMT
#2332
A friend and I have been running a GU counter-wolves deck at our local game store. It runs 4 Mayors and some various ways to clone it (phyrexian metamorph, phantasmal image) and beats down with wolf tokens. Mana leaks for counters, Thrun for kill decks, and BoP for some ramp. Gitaxian Probe and Vapor Snag are my one cost drops and help a lot with the curve. Actually won our last FNM!

On a different note to the thread topic a bit (since this thread is MTG: Online) I thought some other Magic enthusiasts would be able to appreciate the first few pages of our main rare binder (3 person shared collection) - I will put it in spoilers. If anyone has an alpha mana vault, PM me I'm down for trades hahaha

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading] - top to bottom - Foil Ajani, Koth, Gideon Jura (there are 3 more underneath that one), 3 garruk relentless (one is foil) Jace memory Adept, Elspeth, Elspeth

[image loading] - top to bottom - 3x Liliana of the Veil, foil Liliana of the Veil, Foil Jace the Mind Sculptor, foil garruk, bottom row is 3 more Lilianas

[image loading] - 3x Bolas (middle one is foil), Hero, Crusader, Elish Norn, more Liliana

[image loading] - Left page: Snapcaster Mages Right page: Daybreak Ranger, Primeval Titan (1 shiny one regular), 3 birthing pod

[image loading] - Progenitus, Foil Blighsteel, 4 sensei's divining tops (Kamigawa print) Chrome Mox, 2x Mox Opal

[image loading] - One of my personal favs of the collection; foil Gaea's Cradle

And the investment page
[image loading]
(In total this binder has 27 Snapcaster Mages, sadly only one is shiny)

Other rare binder has our harder to come by bombs; Foil Swords to Plowshares, Foil Demonic Tutor, Foil Sol Ring, Foil Sliver Overlord (original), Tarmogoyf, Foil Damnation/Wrath of God and some other awesome stuff.


Anyone got any P9 or other rare bombs to share!?
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 17:44:01
January 03 2012 17:20 GMT
#2333
On January 04 2012 01:31 Judicator wrote:
It's not a mini overrun, it doesn't keep the opponent from blocking. It's something that is played around very easily and only terrible draft players run into it after seeing it once. You only have 7 wolves, but you have 3 Brimstone Volleys. I honestly would have played Nightly Hunt in that deck provided there is nothing else if you are that worried about blockers. Pass turn, flip your wolves, block/trade, 5 them in the face, 7 or 9 if Rage Thrower is out, 8 if you traded a Devils. The only reason why your deck is difficult to handle is because of the Volleys not because of RG wolves (which is a mediocre archetype at best).

I drafted a RUB deck 2 weeks ago with 3 Volleys and about 11 creatures. I was stuck on 3 lands all night and only dropped a game. Volley just creates better lines of play. Moonmist is just whatever, I would rather get in damage guaranteed than some cute trick that would only work once.


Do you really not know what this card does?

Nightly Hunts come in against stall decks that play Fortress Crabs and the like, nobody did. Maindeck they're just worse than Stalked Prey or Moonmist. Not only that, but by the time you have Rage Thrower and the like out they either have a bunch of little fliers or guys just as big as yours because he's 6 freaking mana.

There's no way in hell that I'd ever play Moonmist over Volley, so i don't know what you're on about for the rest of the post.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 03 2012 18:13 GMT
#2334
I know what that card does. I also know that nobody plays it with 7 wolves. I also know it's a trick that isn't that hard to play around once you know it's there. I also know that you are running 3x Volleys which works better with Nightly Hunts since you in almost every situation would trade better or come out ahead. What I am saying is that Hunt > Moonmist. The card is just meh in every situation with just 7 wolves. I already stated the lines of play that you would have with Hunt over Moonmist.

Most decks wouldn't want to attack you in the first place and later on they would be swinging anyways. Hunt makes it harder to play around devils and thrower, along with morbid Brimstone. So tell me again why you would run Moonmist with 7 wolves over Hunt again?
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 02:42 GMT
#2335
Why do you keep saying 7? He has 9 wolves on that list, no? Moonmist interacts with 9 of his creatures (or...un-interacts...?) It's still just a combat trick but it's a big swing. You basically take away a whole turn in a race.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 04 2012 03:03 GMT
#2336
One sided Fog effects are irrelevant. If the card read prevent all damage dealt except by Wolves and Werewolves, would you ever consider playing it? The transform effect is the relevant one at instant speed.

Let me break this down...

You take a whole turn in the race, or you can completely squash their lines of play when they're in the red zone which they need to be anyways with decks like this. Basically, think about where Moonmist is good and how often that is relevant. It seems cool to flip 3 werewolves or one-side fog them, but is it consistent and is it relevant? Like I can't think of a situation where Hunt would be worse than Moonmist, but I can think of multiple situations and board states where Hunt is better than Moonmist. Especially with only 7 relevant targets.
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 03:58 GMT
#2337
You're strawman-ing me. I would not play a card that said "Prevent all combat damage dealt except by Wolves and Werewolves." But that's not what Moonmist is. Just because it has one part doesn't mean the other part doesn't matter.

Nothing is irrelevant in Limited. You have to make everything work for you. I would never think that you would ignore text on a Magic card because you think it's "irrelevant." You know it isn't. Limited Magic is consistently won on the back of relatively weak cards with small interactions. It's ridiculous that you'd say that there's only 7 relevant targets. Every target is relevant.

Can you accept that half the time you play you are losing and that half the time you play you are winning? Is this blanket statement fair? What if I gave it a plus minus of 10% to just give it some intellectual leg room. What does Curse of the Nightly Hunt do for you when you're losing? I can think of situations where one card is better than the other, because that's what limited is. If you play enough, you'll have enough scenarios where it'll matter. Moonmist is probably better than Curse of the Nightly Hunt. That's my opinion, I suppose.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 04 2012 05:46 GMT
#2338
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?
Get it by your hands...
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
January 04 2012 05:56 GMT
#2339
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?



I can give you the perfect example. I had a game with a slow draw, he had Rebuke and Bonds of Faith for my first 2 plays and ended up pinging me down with fliers while I was getting in for 3 with a Kessig Wolf. Eventually, I got on the board with Shepherd and Terror. He had 2 midnight haunting tokens and an Abby Griffin left at this point and I was at 8 life while he was at 10. If I had drawn Moonmist instead of 3 lands, I would have won that game easily, giving me a turn of fog from his fliers, then a huge swing back.

Sure, Volley was just as much of an out, so were other cards, but Moonmist was a viable out I could have drawn at any point in 2-3 turns and won the game.
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 07:21 GMT
#2340
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?


When people play their own dumb combat tricks. When the other creature has first strike or equipment. Regardless, I can't convince you because I still remember our conversation about Forbidden Alchemy vs Think Twice. It's like you've never been in a situation where combat math works out to one turn.

And is my number that wrong? Unless you're some pro, you aren't winning much more than 50% of your game, by which I mean 6% or 8% more. In any given random situation, you're either winning or losing, or tied, I suppose. I'd say it's about half and half.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Prev 1 115 116 117 118 119 665 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
PiGosaur Cup #63
Liquipedia
The PiG Daily
20:50
Best Games
Maru vs Solar
Reynor vs TriGGeR
herO vs Solar
Clem vs TriGGeR
Maru vs TBD
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 355
RuFF_SC2 244
Nina 114
PiLiPiLi 60
Livibee 37
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 3367
Leta 305
Shuttle 45
Hyuk 41
Dota 2
febbydoto37
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 903
C9.Mang0414
Counter-Strike
m0e_tv753
Foxcn479
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox631
Other Games
summit1g6601
tarik_tv5103
WinterStarcraft497
ViBE131
Maynarde112
ZombieGrub44
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1928
BasetradeTV111
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 37
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 36
• Diggity1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra1905
• Rush844
Upcoming Events
RongYI Cup
6h 31m
herO vs Maru
Replay Cast
19h 31m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 7h
OSC
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
The PondCast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS4
HSC XXVIII
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Rongyi Cup S3
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W8
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.