• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:08
CEST 15:08
KST 22:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun9[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists21[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid25
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid Maestros of the Game 2 announced
Tourneys
SC2 INu's Battles#15 <BO.9 2Matches> GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) WardiTV Spring Cup RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event SEL Masters #6 - Solar vs Classic (SC: Evo)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss
Brood War
General
[TOOL] Starcraft Chat Translator ASL21 General Discussion JaeDong's ASL S21 Ro16 Post-Review Missed out on ASL tickets - what are my options? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro8 Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Korean KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2 [ASL21] Ro8 Day 1
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Daigo vs Menard Best of 10 Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Diablo IV
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread 3D technology/software discussion Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2330 users

Magic: The Gathering - Page 117

Forum Index > General Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 115 116 117 118 119 665 Next
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 03 2012 01:19 GMT
#2321
7 wolves that wouldn't die in combat anyways. Moonmist is underwhelming because werewolves usually won't die in combat anyways or will trade very favorably. The problem is that it doesn't help you put a game away like Vampiric Fury does, hell I would play Full Moon's Rise before I even consider running this card.

I don't like it unless I really have like upwards of 10 wolves to make it a consistent combat trick that I wouldn't side out after a game provided my opponent isn't brain dead.
Get it by your hands...
MCMcEmcee
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1609 Posts
January 03 2012 01:19 GMT
#2322
Grime is a good sideboard card for matchups where the board stalls out a lot. If both of you are just stalled on the ground, Gutter Grime makes combat an absolute nightmare for your opponent.
[iHs]MCMcEmcee@UFO | のヮの
bobbob
Profile Joined December 2009
United States368 Posts
January 03 2012 01:35 GMT
#2323
With only 6 or 7 werewolves, I still think moonmist is mediocre. It has the potential to be a blowout, but daybreak ranger doesn't do much attacking, it's only really strong with the, paraiah, outcasts, and mystics, since you would actually be able to block them. Otherwise it's like a fog with a bit of extra relevance.
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 03 2012 02:26 GMT
#2324
So to be more clear, I'd rather play gutter grime than moonmist but...i think the question here is moonmist vs pitchburn devils. Devils does work, that's for sure. But the high variable swings of moonmist - with his deck and curve, impresses me on first appearances.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 03 2012 02:38 GMT
#2325
So to be more clear, I'd rather play gutter grime than moonmist but...i think the question here is moonmist vs pitchburn devils. Devils does work, that's for sure. But the high variable swings of moonmist - with his deck and curve, impresses me on first appearances.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 03 2012 02:44 GMT
#2326
Devils over Mist, anyday. Rage Thrower/Pitchburn Devils squashes lines of play for the opponent very effectively (more so for the former than the latter) once they are in the red zone. Grime seems meh, Emcee already pointed out where it would be good. In any case, 3x Brimstone Volleys makes any deck good.
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 03 2012 03:11 GMT
#2327
Curving out with cultist, devil and rage thrower can be devious. But I dunno, you guys are probably right.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
January 03 2012 04:07 GMT
#2328
Is G-Relentless a FotM for wolf-run decks or is he actually decent in them?
Together but separate, like oatmeal
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 09:03:29
January 03 2012 06:00 GMT
#2329
Think ball lightning. Now give it fire breathing. Now give it death touch. But wait, there's more. You can do this every turn. You can also tutor for creatures by sacrificing these ball lightnings. You can also use a weird graveyard overrun. You can also remove a chump blocker, although this is usually a one time use.

All this with 2 cards. Minus the haste.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 16:10:24
January 03 2012 16:07 GMT
#2330
On January 03 2012 10:19 Judicator wrote:
7 wolves that wouldn't die in combat anyways. Moonmist is underwhelming because werewolves usually won't die in combat anyways or will trade very favorably. The problem is that it doesn't help you put a game away like Vampiric Fury does, hell I would play Full Moon's Rise before I even consider running this card.

I don't like it unless I really have like upwards of 10 wolves to make it a consistent combat trick that I wouldn't side out after a game provided my opponent isn't brain dead.


That's just not true, especially with Kruin Outlaw in the deck. Mainphase Moonmist = werewolves can't be blocked means instakill from a stable board of humans. Not only that, but given I don't have any Villagers, only my Grizzled Outcasts had more than 2 toughness, so they'd be stopped singlehandedly by a Silverchase Fox or Elder Cathar unless I Timewalked myself to flip them.

It may be a mediocre trick, but as a mini-overrun it's quite good.

I only sided it out against the BV player for Gutter Grime because he had 2 occultists, 2 delvers, and a Skaab Goliath as his only creatures.

Also, on Devils: If I have 5 mana and haven't killed them yet, they're at low life. I killed someone by blocking with devils then Brimstone Volleying off the morbid for 8 damage. They also closed out a game of the finals where he was at 3 with no creatures. The reach really makes a difference. Honestly, the most awkward card in the deck was Rage Thrower. He mostly just ate a piece of removal the turn he came in, I think he only activated once all draft. He normally just sat in my hand while I played out everything else in my deck with 4-5 lands.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 16:40:36
January 03 2012 16:31 GMT
#2331
It's not a mini overrun, it doesn't keep the opponent from blocking. It's something that is played around very easily and only terrible draft players run into it after seeing it once. You only have 7 wolves, but you have 3 Brimstone Volleys. I honestly would have played Nightly Hunt in that deck provided there is nothing else if you are that worried about blockers. Pass turn, flip your wolves, block/trade, 5 them in the face, 7 or 9 if Rage Thrower is out, 8 if you traded a Devils. The only reason why your deck is difficult to handle is because of the Volleys not because of RG wolves (which is a mediocre archetype at best).

I drafted a RUB deck 2 weeks ago with 3 Volleys and about 11 creatures. I was stuck on 3 lands all night and only dropped a game. Volley just creates better lines of play. Moonmist is just whatever, I would rather get in damage guaranteed than some cute trick that would only work once.
Get it by your hands...
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 17:22:45
January 03 2012 17:19 GMT
#2332
A friend and I have been running a GU counter-wolves deck at our local game store. It runs 4 Mayors and some various ways to clone it (phyrexian metamorph, phantasmal image) and beats down with wolf tokens. Mana leaks for counters, Thrun for kill decks, and BoP for some ramp. Gitaxian Probe and Vapor Snag are my one cost drops and help a lot with the curve. Actually won our last FNM!

On a different note to the thread topic a bit (since this thread is MTG: Online) I thought some other Magic enthusiasts would be able to appreciate the first few pages of our main rare binder (3 person shared collection) - I will put it in spoilers. If anyone has an alpha mana vault, PM me I'm down for trades hahaha

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading] - top to bottom - Foil Ajani, Koth, Gideon Jura (there are 3 more underneath that one), 3 garruk relentless (one is foil) Jace memory Adept, Elspeth, Elspeth

[image loading] - top to bottom - 3x Liliana of the Veil, foil Liliana of the Veil, Foil Jace the Mind Sculptor, foil garruk, bottom row is 3 more Lilianas

[image loading] - 3x Bolas (middle one is foil), Hero, Crusader, Elish Norn, more Liliana

[image loading] - Left page: Snapcaster Mages Right page: Daybreak Ranger, Primeval Titan (1 shiny one regular), 3 birthing pod

[image loading] - Progenitus, Foil Blighsteel, 4 sensei's divining tops (Kamigawa print) Chrome Mox, 2x Mox Opal

[image loading] - One of my personal favs of the collection; foil Gaea's Cradle

And the investment page
[image loading]
(In total this binder has 27 Snapcaster Mages, sadly only one is shiny)

Other rare binder has our harder to come by bombs; Foil Swords to Plowshares, Foil Demonic Tutor, Foil Sol Ring, Foil Sliver Overlord (original), Tarmogoyf, Foil Damnation/Wrath of God and some other awesome stuff.


Anyone got any P9 or other rare bombs to share!?
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 17:44:01
January 03 2012 17:20 GMT
#2333
On January 04 2012 01:31 Judicator wrote:
It's not a mini overrun, it doesn't keep the opponent from blocking. It's something that is played around very easily and only terrible draft players run into it after seeing it once. You only have 7 wolves, but you have 3 Brimstone Volleys. I honestly would have played Nightly Hunt in that deck provided there is nothing else if you are that worried about blockers. Pass turn, flip your wolves, block/trade, 5 them in the face, 7 or 9 if Rage Thrower is out, 8 if you traded a Devils. The only reason why your deck is difficult to handle is because of the Volleys not because of RG wolves (which is a mediocre archetype at best).

I drafted a RUB deck 2 weeks ago with 3 Volleys and about 11 creatures. I was stuck on 3 lands all night and only dropped a game. Volley just creates better lines of play. Moonmist is just whatever, I would rather get in damage guaranteed than some cute trick that would only work once.


Do you really not know what this card does?

Nightly Hunts come in against stall decks that play Fortress Crabs and the like, nobody did. Maindeck they're just worse than Stalked Prey or Moonmist. Not only that, but by the time you have Rage Thrower and the like out they either have a bunch of little fliers or guys just as big as yours because he's 6 freaking mana.

There's no way in hell that I'd ever play Moonmist over Volley, so i don't know what you're on about for the rest of the post.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 03 2012 18:13 GMT
#2334
I know what that card does. I also know that nobody plays it with 7 wolves. I also know it's a trick that isn't that hard to play around once you know it's there. I also know that you are running 3x Volleys which works better with Nightly Hunts since you in almost every situation would trade better or come out ahead. What I am saying is that Hunt > Moonmist. The card is just meh in every situation with just 7 wolves. I already stated the lines of play that you would have with Hunt over Moonmist.

Most decks wouldn't want to attack you in the first place and later on they would be swinging anyways. Hunt makes it harder to play around devils and thrower, along with morbid Brimstone. So tell me again why you would run Moonmist with 7 wolves over Hunt again?
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 02:42 GMT
#2335
Why do you keep saying 7? He has 9 wolves on that list, no? Moonmist interacts with 9 of his creatures (or...un-interacts...?) It's still just a combat trick but it's a big swing. You basically take away a whole turn in a race.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 04 2012 03:03 GMT
#2336
One sided Fog effects are irrelevant. If the card read prevent all damage dealt except by Wolves and Werewolves, would you ever consider playing it? The transform effect is the relevant one at instant speed.

Let me break this down...

You take a whole turn in the race, or you can completely squash their lines of play when they're in the red zone which they need to be anyways with decks like this. Basically, think about where Moonmist is good and how often that is relevant. It seems cool to flip 3 werewolves or one-side fog them, but is it consistent and is it relevant? Like I can't think of a situation where Hunt would be worse than Moonmist, but I can think of multiple situations and board states where Hunt is better than Moonmist. Especially with only 7 relevant targets.
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 03:58 GMT
#2337
You're strawman-ing me. I would not play a card that said "Prevent all combat damage dealt except by Wolves and Werewolves." But that's not what Moonmist is. Just because it has one part doesn't mean the other part doesn't matter.

Nothing is irrelevant in Limited. You have to make everything work for you. I would never think that you would ignore text on a Magic card because you think it's "irrelevant." You know it isn't. Limited Magic is consistently won on the back of relatively weak cards with small interactions. It's ridiculous that you'd say that there's only 7 relevant targets. Every target is relevant.

Can you accept that half the time you play you are losing and that half the time you play you are winning? Is this blanket statement fair? What if I gave it a plus minus of 10% to just give it some intellectual leg room. What does Curse of the Nightly Hunt do for you when you're losing? I can think of situations where one card is better than the other, because that's what limited is. If you play enough, you'll have enough scenarios where it'll matter. Moonmist is probably better than Curse of the Nightly Hunt. That's my opinion, I suppose.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 04 2012 05:46 GMT
#2338
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?
Get it by your hands...
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
January 04 2012 05:56 GMT
#2339
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?



I can give you the perfect example. I had a game with a slow draw, he had Rebuke and Bonds of Faith for my first 2 plays and ended up pinging me down with fliers while I was getting in for 3 with a Kessig Wolf. Eventually, I got on the board with Shepherd and Terror. He had 2 midnight haunting tokens and an Abby Griffin left at this point and I was at 8 life while he was at 10. If I had drawn Moonmist instead of 3 lands, I would have won that game easily, giving me a turn of fog from his fliers, then a huge swing back.

Sure, Volley was just as much of an out, so were other cards, but Moonmist was a viable out I could have drawn at any point in 2-3 turns and won the game.
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
January 04 2012 07:21 GMT
#2340
On January 04 2012 14:46 Judicator wrote:
How does moonmist help if you are losing? Like please present a credible situation where you think Moonmist will get you out of trouble?

And while you are at it, let me know where you are getting half losing and half winning. Like i said earlier, think about when moonmist would be better than hunt. You guys are thinking only of specific cases but not thinking about how often those cases would happen.

Its still 7 relevant targets, how often does Kessig and Darkthicket lose in straight combat?


When people play their own dumb combat tricks. When the other creature has first strike or equipment. Regardless, I can't convince you because I still remember our conversation about Forbidden Alchemy vs Think Twice. It's like you've never been in a situation where combat math works out to one turn.

And is my number that wrong? Unless you're some pro, you aren't winning much more than 50% of your game, by which I mean 6% or 8% more. In any given random situation, you're either winning or losing, or tied, I suppose. I'd say it's about half and half.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Prev 1 115 116 117 118 119 665 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Big Gabe
12:00
Big Gabe Open #1
mouzHeroMarine554
IndyStarCraft 139
TKL 42
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 554
Ryung 271
IndyStarCraft 139
TKL 42
herO (SOOP) 30
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 5939
Jaedong 2358
Sea 2336
HiyA 754
EffOrt 616
GuemChi 586
Soma 494
Hyuk 490
Stork 385
Light 356
[ Show more ]
Snow 329
actioN 274
ggaemo 265
ZerO 211
Zeus 202
Last 183
Soulkey 172
Rush 168
ToSsGirL 164
Mini 141
Larva 132
firebathero 131
hero 78
Pusan 70
Sharp 63
sSak 50
Backho 33
sorry 32
Barracks 32
Bale 26
Sacsri 26
yabsab 26
Shinee 26
Terrorterran 25
Shine 21
Free 20
Sexy 20
Movie 18
soO 17
Noble 15
scan(afreeca) 13
IntoTheRainbow 13
GoRush 10
Dota 2
XaKoH 515
ODPixel130
BananaSlamJamma97
Counter-Strike
olofmeister3072
zeus613
x6flipin574
markeloff176
edward75
kRYSTAL_21
Other Games
singsing2128
B2W.Neo1459
hiko513
Lowko384
DeMusliM332
crisheroes294
Livibee25
ZerO(Twitch)18
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 1116
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream73
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 45
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1316
• TFBlade1176
Counter-Strike
• Nemesis1047
Other Games
• WagamamaTV322
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
19h 52m
Escore
20h 52m
OSC
23h 52m
Replay Cast
1d 10h
Replay Cast
1d 19h
RSL Revival
1d 20h
Classic vs GgMaChine
Rogue vs Maru
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
IPSL
2 days
Ret vs Art_Of_Turtle
Radley vs TBD
BSL
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs TriGGeR
NightMare vs Solar
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
BSL
3 days
IPSL
3 days
eOnzErG vs TBD
G5 vs Nesh
Patches Events
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Jaedong vs Light
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Snow vs Flash
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
GSL
5 days
Classic vs Cure
Maru vs Rogue
GSL
6 days
SHIN vs Zoun
ByuN vs herO
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-04-29
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
2026 GSL S1
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W5
KK 2v2 League Season 1
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.