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England2662 Posts
I'm feeling the same things here that I've felt in other games where there wasn't a major end-game component to get into (Pre-raiding/PvP WoW, Borderlands for two examples) which, I reckon, we're all getting. I don't feel like playing because I don't have any reason to. I can play with friends and it's fun, but I don't feel like I need better gear or to look cooler or to max anything out because there's nothing I need the gear for. To sum it up, sure the game is fun, but if I don't have anything to work towards or any reason for progession, I may as well spend my gaming time on another game (fun + feeling of progession > fun). Sure I still play GW2 and there are lots of things I haven't done, but for me, if I don't need to farm Shadow Res gear for a boss fight or max out stats or whatever then I'm probably not going to play outside of an hour or two. Which is fine really, but it's unusual for an MMO. They're meant to consume your life and make getting more powerful an amazing goal.
I don't feel compelled to play sPvP either. It takes 77,500 glory to hit Wolf rank now if I want to get new gear (which is just visual) which is way too much to be a motivation and is basically 20+ days working towards one simple thing. Some people seem to hate progression like in WoW or even LoL where you have more reasons to work towards things (Oh man, only two more wins and I can buy this new Champion or finish my Mana Regen rune set), mostly because it's an eneven playing fieldbut really I have no reason to play without it. All the leather armour looks the same or dull until about rank 50 and no one on the other team can even see your gun. Without additional gains, the feeling of improving isn't enough anymore so this has just become an alternative to DotA/LoL:
Hey, you wanna play some GW2 PvP?
I dunno, how many of us are there?
Just us two/We got five.
I'll pass/Oh awesome, I'll log in!
I guess I've inadvertantly joined the group of people ragging on the game but this is just the way it is right now. It's forged its own style and that has removed a lot of the things that people associate the genre with. Perhaps it is a good thing that you don't need to play a lot to get things that are required to progress but without that progression a lot of people are just going to stop playing (akin to a single-player game) when they're done. The problem is, are these same people going to flock back at expansions? Is the gem store going to make any money without any progression to drive it? Those are my feelings on it, it's a really big single-player game with an online mode for PvP, a butt-load of side quests and extra features that are only really there for the people who want their Platinum trophy or 1000 gamerscore.
Here's the final kicker for this. If I don't need to progress - or if I do, it's limited - then I don't need to ask for help and I don't get asked to help friends. In WoW, I raided. I loved it for the 14 months or so that I took part. Whether it was two hours outside and instance just chatting with friends, doing homework and waiting to get in for Archimonde. Whether it was farming Primal Fires with a buddy for our Warlock fire-res tanking gear. Whether it was running Heroics again and again to farm an item to increase our DPS or helping someone out by crafting gear for them. I felt like a team and that my friends were so crucial to the experience. Sure it was a bummer if you didn't have anything to do but when we aren't all driven to do it by the goal of progression a lot of this disappears and it leads to me not wanting to play alone (no reason beyond a bit of fun) and not having friends who are keen to log on (none of us have reason to progress). Progression is the fun generator for me. Progression -> reason to play, reason to play -> reason to play with friends and playing with friends is way more fun that playing alone. I don't feel like I'm having any social experiences in this game. Maybe that's because I'm in a small guild of friends and not PuGing but really, I haven't felt any reason to group up at all from 1-80 and if you did, it was because you were drawn towards a big event, then as soon as it was over, everyone would be gone. The only talk is a possible "thx" if you ressed somebody. If I killed a giant in a group of 40 then the NPC said "we need to send eight task forces out to each of these camps, form a party with four others and..." bam, we'd be in a group, we'd talk, say hi and, hell, maybe even level together or add people to friends. Anyway, maybe I'm going off topic but an MMO with a necessary social side isn't right.
To me, by definition MMOs must have a real drive for progression and I should get rewarded properly for time put in. It's such a key part of the genre for me, that anything without it doesn't feel right. If I were to think of this not as an MMO I would be 100% satisfied but as I'm not playing all day after only a month, it feels strange. I understand why Anet did this but it doesn't fit with why I've enjoyed MMOs in the past. Great single-player games you play for 100 hours, great MMOs you play for 100 days. Without being co-erced into a group by the promise of progression, there's way less social interaction. Less social interaction reduces a lot of the time you're going to spend in game - we've all heard MMOs called "glorified chat rooms" and there's a lot of truth in that as to why they're compelling.
TL;DR - This ended up a lot like Neil DeGrasse Tyson's arguments for why NASA is important. Just replace "NASA" in his argument with "progression" and you'll get a pretty good idea of what I'm on about. Right now, I don't perceive any reasons to progress so I don't feel like playing.
[/self-entitlement]
(I feel kinda bad for making this post but I wanted to get this all out. I know it's really dickish of me to complain about a game I really enjoy - especially as it will possibly skew opinion on it to outsiders - but I usually find myself picking holes in the things I like the most which is exactly what this is. Guild Wars 2 is a really good game with a lovely world and is definitely fun, it just isn't a game for me to be consumed by. It's possible that there is an endgame that I'm just not part of. Perhaps killing all the world bosses is satisfying and a good reason to progress but it sure doesn't feel like it. Maybe I wouldn't raid even if it was in the game but without it and with progression based PvP, I'd rather move on. I hope some of you agree with this.)
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^ Spot on. Acquired all full Exo, and just don't have any motivation/incentive to play the game outside of social obligation, and/or maybe SPvP+WvW(<--Boring as hell tbh) for ~30mins.
Will probably see major content updates in the future - but even then I personally won't buy immediately to avoid said situation again.
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On September 25 2012 18:32 Flicky wrote:
I'm feeling the same things here that I've felt in other games where there wasn't a major end-game component to get into (Pre-raiding/PvP WoW, Borderlands for two examples) which, I reckon, we're all getting. I don't feel like playing because I don't have any reason to. I can play with friends and it's fun, but I don't feel like I need better gear or to look cooler or to max anything out because there's nothing I need the gear for. To sum it up, sure the game is fun, but if I don't have anything to work towards or any reason for progession, I may as well spend my gaming time on another game (fun + feeling of progession > fun). Sure I still play GW2 and there are lots of things I haven't done, but for me, if I don't need to farm Shadow Res gear for a boss fight or max out stats or whatever then I'm probably not going to play outside of an hour or two. Which is fine really, but it's unusual for an MMO. They're meant to consume your life and make getting more powerful an amazing goal.
I don't feel compelled to play sPvP either. It takes 77,500 glory to hit Wolf rank now if I want to get new gear (which is just visual) which is way too much to be a motivation and is basically 20+ days working towards one simple thing. Some people seem to hate progression like in WoW or even LoL where you have more reasons to work towards things (Oh man, only two more wins and I can buy this new Champion or finish my Mana Regen rune set), mostly because it's an eneven playing fieldbut really I have no reason to play without it. All the leather armour looks the same or dull until about rank 50 and no one on the other team can even see your gun. Without additional gains, the feeling of improving isn't enough anymore so this has just become an alternative to DotA/LoL:
Hey, you wanna play some GW2 PvP?
I dunno, how many of us are there?
Just us two/We got five.
I'll pass/Oh awesome, I'll log in!
I guess I've inadvertantly joined the group of people ragging on the game but this is just the way it is right now. It's forged its own style and that has removed a lot of the things that people associate the genre with. Perhaps it is a good thing that you don't need to play a lot to get things that are required to progress but without that progression a lot of people are just going to stop playing (akin to a single-player game) when they're done. The problem is, are these same people going to flock back at expansions? Is the gem store going to make any money without any progression to drive it? Those are my feelings on it, it's a really big single-player game with an online mode for PvP, a butt-load of side quests and extra features that are only really there for the people who want their Platinum trophy or 1000 gamerscore.
Here's the final kicker for this. If I don't need to progress - or if I do, it's limited - then I don't need to ask for help and I don't get asked to help friends. In WoW, I raided. I loved it for the 14 months or so that I took part. Whether it was two hours outside and instance just chatting with friends, doing homework and waiting to get in for Archimonde. Whether it was farming Primal Fires with a buddy for our Warlock fire-res tanking gear. Whether it was running Heroics again and again to farm an item to increase our DPS or helping someone out by crafting gear for them. I felt like a team and that my friends were so crucial to the experience. Sure it was a bummer if you didn't have anything to do but when we aren't all driven to do it by the goal of progression a lot of this disappears and it leads to me not wanting to play alone (no reason beyond a bit of fun) and not having friends who are keen to log on (none of us have reason to progress). Progression is the fun generator for me. Progression -> reason to play, reason to play -> reason to play with friends and playing with friends is way more fun that playing alone. I don't feel like I'm having any social experiences in this game. Maybe that's because I'm in a small guild of friends and not PuGing but really, I haven't felt any reason to group up at all from 1-80 and if you did, it was because you were drawn towards a big event, then as soon as it was over, everyone would be gone. The only talk is a possible "thx" if you ressed somebody. If I killed a giant in a group of 40 then the NPC said "we need to send eight task forces out to each of these camps, form a party with four others and..." bam, we'd be in a group, we'd talk, say hi and, hell, maybe even level together or add people to friends. Anyway, maybe I'm going off topic but an MMO with a necessary social side isn't right.
To me, by definition MMOs must have a real drive for progression and I should get rewarded properly for time put in. It's such a key part of the genre for me, that anything without it doesn't feel right. If I were to think of this not as an MMO I would be 100% satisfied but as I'm not playing all day after only a month, it feels strange. I understand why Anet did this but it doesn't fit with why I've enjoyed MMOs in the past. Great single-player games you play for 100 hours, great MMOs you play for 100 days. Without being co-erced into a group by the promise of progression, there's way less social interaction. Less social interaction reduces a lot of the time you're going to spend in game - we've all heard MMOs called "glorified chat rooms" and there's a lot of truth in that as to why they're compelling.
TL;DR - This ended up a lot like Neil DeGrasse Tyson's arguments for why NASA is important. Just replace "NASA" in his argument with "progression" and you'll get a pretty good idea of what I'm on about. Right now, I don't perceive any reasons to progress so I don't feel like playing.
[/self-entitlement]
(I feel kinda bad for making this post but I wanted to get this all out. I know it's really dickish of me to complain about a game I really enjoy - especially as it will possibly skew opinion on it to outsiders - but I usually find myself picking holes in the things I like the most which is exactly what this is. Guild Wars 2 is a really good game with a lovely world and is definitely fun, it just isn't a game for me to be consumed by. It's possible that there is an endgame that I'm just not part of. Perhaps killing all the world bosses is satisfying and a good reason to progress but it sure doesn't feel like it. Maybe I wouldn't raid even if it was in the game but without it and with progression based PvP, I'd rather move on. I hope some of you agree with this.)
A large number of people feel the same way as you, and I can relate. It's that feeling when you finish a night's session and realize that your character is no different to when you started.
Games at their core should be based around having fun. A lot of MMO-goers from the WoW era have forgotten what it's like to have fun without some sort of record of achievement or progress as evidence that fun was had.
It's like saying, if your ladder score on Starcraft is not higher today then it was yesterday, then you did not have fun. Seems a bit silly if you ask me.
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@flicky, it's funny because everything you listed is a good reason to not play a game for me. :>
Hate pve and just want to pvp all day in an rpg setting, gw2 does that great. Some things of course could be changed here or there but in general im pretty happy. Just wished they hurried up and added more tournaments and support for competitive pvp.
I think people just got too comfortable with the wow style of an mmo and don't like new things/want to give new things or try or just generally like that style of farming to pve more to pve more to pve more. I've been playing mmos since uo/daoc so it's nice seeing an mmo go back to its roots.
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I just got the game yesterday. It seems really good, albeit confusing at first.
So anyway, does GW2 have the storydriven 5 man "instances" that GW1 had? Because I already really miss those.
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Yup, levels 30,40,50,60,70,80 you get access to story dungeons, which you can then choose to complete "explore mode" after finishing the story.
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Flicky, i love you, your speedrunning efforts and most of your posts.
But you just straight out complained about GW2 because there is no pointless carrot on a stick that makes you waste time doing boring crap over and over.
Your a textbook definition of a "WoW-addict" so to speak  well no, you just prefer its carrot on stick approach.
Grinding out primal fires with a warlock friend? Thats fun? Also, you can do that solo. Just like in GW2, you can farm solo, or in a group.
The social aspect of things are what you make them, and you said it yourself, you gave examples of solo activities in WoW as a socialable thing, why isnt GW2 the same? There are a few things to grind for in GW2, wether it be PvE or PvP and the majority can be done in a group.
Also, the simple fact that you seem to see sPvP as a grind to your next rank and visual appearance and nothing more now tells me you dont really enjoy it, even though ive read countless posts of you wasting hours on it and saying you loved it, i guess your burnt out, which is probably why this post came about lol.
GW2 levelling and its gameplay did a much better job of bringing people together then any other MMO, i have friends ive done events with, found vista's, done jumping puzzles, just because i started waffling bullshit in /say and then replied.
The only thing i'll agree to is that there needs to be a more challenging end-game, the events (e.g shatterer and all the rest) are piss-easy, sure, they want the gameplay the same. But make it fuckhard and make people organise and have to work together, instead of just zerging. Imo.
The rest, well you want to be given a carrot on a stick, you want "progression" for grinding countless hours and for that you want an advantage over players who dont, which is fine, its just the exact thing guild wars has always strived to get rid of, Some love it, some dont.
GW2 Gameplay is in its purest form, alot more fun then any other MMO ive ever played. It needs harder end-game content, even if it is 2 shit hard bosses that respawn on a 12 hour basis. WvWvW needs some work, but i cant put my finger on what, and sPvP simply needs ladders and rankings for teams, along with more variety (game modes etc, GW1 had tons.) to promote different playstyles and keep it fresh. Playing guardian i literally do the same thing everygame - Go mid and hold it. and all the others do the same shit too.
Very rambling post, not organised, but i dont care :p
TL;DR Flicky wants carrot on stick, GW2 built to prevent that, Like a lesbian in a mens locker room ^_^
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On September 25 2012 20:29 Truez wrote:
Yup, levels 30,40,50,60,70,80 you get access to story dungeons, which you can then choose to complete "explore mode" after finishing the story.
great, thanks! So happy they kept this. I still have fond memories playing these dungeons in vanilla Guild Wars. Must be 6-7 years ago!
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On September 25 2012 08:50 -eXalt wrote:
Whoever designed the PvP system is a dumbass, because your progress in sPvP is completely irrelavent to the "real" world ie you can't get shiny loots from arena-PvP which is what I enjoyed in a lot of MMOs (SWTOR, WoW).
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That's the goal of the spvp.. -_-
A PvP where you can just, you know.. pvp.
Withtout being concerned by pve guys bringing unfair advantages, and without gear being a advantage for people playing more.
Only your play matters.
A LOT of people wanted that. You just need to look at how many people loved tournament servers on WoW.
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As someone who played GW1 competitively, there are not enough words in the world to express how much of a sham GW2 is.
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On September 25 2012 22:31 rawins wrote:
As someone who played GW1 competitively, there are not enough words in the world to express how much of a sham GW2 is.
This.
I'm lucky I am able to enjoy PvE too, or I would regret my purchase. Hard.
And GW1 PvP was so awesome-baller GOOD ;_;
Can we all start playing GW1 again? I don't like that it's dead.
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On September 25 2012 22:42 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 22:31 rawins wrote:
As someone who played GW1 competitively, there are not enough words in the world to express how much of a sham GW2 is. This. I'm lucky I am able to enjoy PvE too, or I would regret my purchase. Hard. And GW1 PvP was so awesome-baller GOOD ;_; Can we all start playing GW1 again? I don't like that it's dead.
GvG died of mismanagement and neglect years ago, buddy. Making another World of Warcraft expansion was obviously more important to A.net than making a unique game.
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England2662 Posts
On September 25 2012 20:38 Capped wrote:
TL;DR Flicky wants carrot on stick, GW2 built to prevent that, Like a lesbian in a mens locker room ^_^
That's a good response but I just wanna clear some things up.
The main reason behind the post is why I'm not playing anywhere near as much as I feel I would be and that's because I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere. I guess it's just something I take foregranted in games which, as we both said, is what Guild Wars is based around.
Also, it doesn't have to be a grind to progress. Guild Wars 2 has so many interesting things in it that it need not be - in fact I'm confident it isn't - although I don't know for sure.. A long event chain with a vendor at the end would be a fantastic way to get a new item. A set of 10 linked renown hearts across the world that when all completed gives you X to use in Y. A crazy long skill point puzzle that if won rewards you with 5 magic gun tokens or something. These are terrible suggestions but as of right now, these probably exist I just have no reason to do it beyond the innane "just to see it". Well it might be fun but it would be more fun if it was the last thing I needed to craft an amazing lvl 80 pimp hat.
About the social part, sure you can do everything with a friend and I did a bunch of stuff with friends, but it's just the parts I miss of "man this is really hard, I need some help" which I've not found and haven't drawn people together. That's probably just due to the tagging system so maybe it's just a side effect of something necessary. If you're doing a renown heart with a friend it's just normal questing that's fine. But if you're doing a big event and you have two friends with you, lost in a sea of 40, there's no real link there. You're not relying on them to help out or working as a team to take down this big enemy, you're just swept up in this big, anonymous whirlwind of people, moving from one place to the next.
It's probably more on me than I'd like to admit but without the nudge to group up, most people won't, and don't, bother. Even most of my friends seem to want to play alone but hey, can't blame the game for that and perhaps that's probably it. Just a moan here, my friends have been real bad at being at all sociable. Two of them are off doing their own thing (seperate from eachother) all the time regardless of how many times you ask and the others (like me) have limited time and it's hard to be together at all. Odds are this is contributing. It could just be that my friends all requrie this progression prod and that as a group we're not latching on and playing together for that reason.
It is definitely more fun that other MMOs on a base level, it's just that it doesn't hold my attention for as long. A lot of games don't so it's unfair to call Guild Wars 2 out for it, it's just that other MMOs have - they're just better at making me unbored I suppose.
Also - it's not a pointless carrot on a stick, the main reason I like progression is because it's very fun to work towards and it's very satisfying. There's no addict reason behind it, honest!
I do enjoy PvP for the record, the thing about grinding gear was why I'm not playing it solo. I should've made that more clear. I guess that's what all these posts should be titled: "Why I End Up Alone and Why I Don't Like It".
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On September 25 2012 22:42 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 22:31 rawins wrote:
As someone who played GW1 competitively, there are not enough words in the world to express how much of a sham GW2 is. This. I'm lucky I am able to enjoy PvE too, or I would regret my purchase. Hard. And GW1 PvP was so awesome-baller GOOD ;_; Can we all start playing GW1 again? I don't like that it's dead.
I'd love to play GvGs again. I watched some of those that are played these days and they don't know how to play anymore.
No strategy or teamplay at all, a decent guild from a few years back could easily wipe the floor with most of them.
GW2 is just no replacement 
We need to gather 16 TLers and do some old-school scrims :-/
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Its satisfying to work for months and get what you worked for, yes, doesnt mean it has to be a grind or give you an advantage over player who didnt do so.
The thing is, WoW does this, WoW will make you more powerful in return for time spent.
GW2 wont do this, it will offer incentives (awesome looking gear, epeen) but at the end of the day, its about you WANTING to do it rather then having to in order to keep up with everyone.
In that sense, your kept playing and grinding whatever (whether it be primal fires or raids) because you have to, while GW2 makes it optional.
Either way, i think they will add everything we want and more in time but guild wars has always been about an even playing field and time spent not making skill, but skill making skill, which is why you dont get the progression you talk about, but different "optional" forms of it.
And i only pvp with my full group too, PuGs are facepalmy 90% of the time.
As i said its the carrot on a stick that keeps so many people playing WoW and other variants, and its got you good chap :D nothing wrong with it either! It keeps your attention because their is a clear destination e.g: After 100 hours of farming this shit, i'll have X amount more HP and DPS. instead of wow, a slightly different pair of gloves!
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Lol I don't think I've ever seen an argument for why progression in any competitive game is good. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
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On September 25 2012 23:54 RoieTRS wrote:
Lol I don't think I've ever seen an argument for why progression in any competitive game is good. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
Its not an arguement, its a discussion.
I would never argue with flicky, that guy is a boss.
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@Flicky
I think you're putting way too much thought on this. As far as I can tell you hit max level and got a full set of exotics which means you played GW2 for a substantial amount of hours of enjoyment. You've already got your moneys worth and then some. GW2 was designed this way, you play it to have fun and then move on, much like most other genres. You have to realize classic MMOs NEED to give you that "carrot on a stick" to keep people paying their monthly subscription. It's their business model. GW2 is not built around that business model as it is a buy-to-play game with cash shop items who people who want them. Really GW2 is almost like its own genre, or at least a distinct sub-genre of MMOs. GW2 really is the first AAA buy-to-play MMO ever. So you shouldn't have to feel guilty of why you're not logging in anymore or something. GW2 isn't your wife. You should be thanking ANet for the fun and that you now have free the time to play other awesome games (like Borderlands 2).
My thoughts as a hardcore GW1 GvG'er and avid MMOer in general:
Get GW2 if:
-If you like the genre but don't have the time to be "teh hardcorez" as this game is tailor-made for casuals.
-Pretty good game if you're into lore/RP/exploration.
-Base system of PvP I think is good and has potential, but systems are lacking at the moment (no ladder system, few maps, only 1 game type). WvW is fun but also needs some work IMO. If you're buying the game only for PvP I would say hold off until they add more content/features.
Don't get GW2 if:
-If you're a raider. The most you'll get are the equivalent of heroic 5-man dungeons.
-If you're looking for a MMO with progressive/tier rewards, e.g. the endless "carrot on a stick," endless grinds that consume hours upon hours of your free time (which hey, some people do like) you will not enjoy this game. All only things you work for are all cosmetic.
-If you're a GW1 player expecting a combat system anything like GW1. They are completely different. It is much more "action-y" and much less "build wars" where you build your character like you would a deck of cards in magic the gathering.
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England2662 Posts
On September 26 2012 00:39 Skyro wrote:
@Flicky
I think you're putting way too much thought on this. As far as I can tell you hit max level and got a full set of exotics which means you played GW2 for a substantial amount of hours of enjoyment. You've already got your moneys worth and then some. GW2 was designed this way, you play it to have fun and then move on, much like most other genres. You have to realize classic MMOs NEED to give you that "carrot on a stick" to keep people paying their monthly subscription. It's their business model. GW2 is not built around that business model as it is a buy-to-play game with cash shop items who people who want them. Really GW2 is almost like its own genre, or at least a distinct sub-genre of MMOs. GW2 really is the first AAA buy-to-play MMO ever. So you shouldn't have to feel guilty of why you're not logging in anymore or something. GW2 isn't your wife. You should be thanking ANet for the fun and that you now have free the time to play other awesome games (like Borderlands 2).
Oh I know I'm overanalysing it, I just really enjoy doing so ><. And yes for a £ to hour ratio I've made an incredible profit, up there with the best value I've had. Absolutely so.
Thinking of it as a new~ genre makes a lot of sense and I do really enjoy the game and it was a purchase I don't regret for a second. It's just hard to discuss my point while making that clear.
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I don't know I'm having fun and all I do is spvp/tournaments. I don't need better gear or mounts to keep playing. My motivation is getting better and I do this by playing every single profession. My motivation is having fun with my friends. I don't need my hand held or pretty prizes for accomplishments that mean nothing. ANet gave me a playground and I'm making my own fun. The only thing I want is a ladder like GW1.
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EPT
