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On March 14 2012 21:26 topoulo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 20:48 topoulo wrote:
Lets remove the gear earned from pve as well and lets see how this will feel like , just pve for the heck of it
Heck lets remove all rpg elements because some will have clear advantage over others .
Hey isnt there a genre called fps for that ?
Tbh if gw2 dont start rewarding time and effort in pvp i dont see it flurish like it should have been in the end it would just been a glorified dota - lol PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker. In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? Your such a big time troll is annoying. all i see form your posts is me , me and me i dont like and if you dont like what i like go back to wow. your something rly. As for the non troll posters , a company needs to apply to all kinds of customers to be successive both casual and powergamers. For the last time and i wont waste another grey matter on this subject gw2 right now it fails in the pvp progression - rpg elements , both terms of item and ability rewards , tbh it has zero nada. ps no pvp and pve its not different terms of accomplisment , pvpers wants to be rewarded just as much as a pvers want even more since its common knowledge thus far that pvp skill >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pve
Never ceases to amaze me that "troll" now means "you disagree with me"
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On March 14 2012 21:38 MethodSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:22 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 20:48 topoulo wrote:
Lets remove the gear earned from pve as well and lets see how this will feel like , just pve for the heck of it
Heck lets remove all rpg elements because some will have clear advantage over others .
Hey isnt there a genre called fps for that ?
Tbh if gw2 dont start rewarding time and effort in pvp i dont see it flurish like it should have been in the end it would just been a glorified dota - lol PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker. In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? But this thinking doesn't compute to how a progression system works within this framework. 1) The bonuses that you get won't give you an insurmountable advantage 2) If there are no rewards that you can feel, there's no reason to keep playing 3) Most of the time you will be fighting alongside other people, meaning that 1v1 almost never happens. Why? Because this is a keep capture based system, so most of the fighting will either be near the keeps, with mass fighting, or groups roaming to score kills or fight other groups. Having no stealth class also makes 1v1 even more unlikely. 1) An advantage is an advantage. People whine every day about imbalance in SC2 which isn't even there, think about the whine when people lose to someone who has 5% more HP? 2) Sure there is. Play to get better, play to enjoy being good, play for cosmetic progression. 3) While this might be a defence for giving advantages to grinders, it doesn't explain what the point is. And it's shallow, 3v3 is even worse if you get into a situation where the other team all have better bonuses which I suppose is common when it comes to guilds playing. The only interesting situation would be a bigger team vs a smaller team which has advantages... but even then, there's not much enjoyment to be had and there's no reason to believe the stronger team will be fewer in numbers. See but you're still under the impression that world pvp can mean something, when it can't. Getting better at world pvp? There's no quantitative evidence to say if you're getting better. Play to enjoy being good? Good players don't play anything if there's no competition. Again, you're equating set number of players fighting to random numbers of players fighting, which is simply wrong. The only way to show skill is to have a set number of players against a set number of players, no bonuses. It's really obvious you've never played a game with world pvp.
I don't understand what makes world PvP so different? You're still fighting other players and you'll still be annoyed when they beat you because of bonuses. I also still don't get what this advantage is supposed to accomplish. "Hey, me and my guild ran around and killed small teams of other players in world PvP, now we have tons of bonuses and own people even harder than before, it's awesome". Sounds more like standard world ganking than enjoyable world PvP.
No one has argued that there should be no reward for playing, all I'm arguing is that there's no need to give advantages to people just for playing. Make the advantages big, and you ruin the experience hardcore which I'm sure you agree with since you said yourself the advantages shouldn't be insurmountable, if you make the advantages small, they make no difference anyway so who cares?
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On March 14 2012 21:48 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:38 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:22 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 20:48 topoulo wrote:
Lets remove the gear earned from pve as well and lets see how this will feel like , just pve for the heck of it
Heck lets remove all rpg elements because some will have clear advantage over others .
Hey isnt there a genre called fps for that ?
Tbh if gw2 dont start rewarding time and effort in pvp i dont see it flurish like it should have been in the end it would just been a glorified dota - lol PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker. In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? But this thinking doesn't compute to how a progression system works within this framework. 1) The bonuses that you get won't give you an insurmountable advantage 2) If there are no rewards that you can feel, there's no reason to keep playing 3) Most of the time you will be fighting alongside other people, meaning that 1v1 almost never happens. Why? Because this is a keep capture based system, so most of the fighting will either be near the keeps, with mass fighting, or groups roaming to score kills or fight other groups. Having no stealth class also makes 1v1 even more unlikely. 1) An advantage is an advantage. People whine every day about imbalance in SC2 which isn't even there, think about the whine when people lose to someone who has 5% more HP? 2) Sure there is. Play to get better, play to enjoy being good, play for cosmetic progression. 3) While this might be a defence for giving advantages to grinders, it doesn't explain what the point is. And it's shallow, 3v3 is even worse if you get into a situation where the other team all have better bonuses which I suppose is common when it comes to guilds playing. The only interesting situation would be a bigger team vs a smaller team which has advantages... but even then, there's not much enjoyment to be had and there's no reason to believe the stronger team will be fewer in numbers. See but you're still under the impression that world pvp can mean something, when it can't. Getting better at world pvp? There's no quantitative evidence to say if you're getting better. Play to enjoy being good? Good players don't play anything if there's no competition. Again, you're equating set number of players fighting to random numbers of players fighting, which is simply wrong. The only way to show skill is to have a set number of players against a set number of players, no bonuses. It's really obvious you've never played a game with world pvp. I don't understand what makes world PvP so different? You're still fighting other players and you'll still be annoyed when they beat you because of bonuses. I also still don't get what this advantage is supposed to accomplish. "Hey, me and my guild ran around and killed small teams of other players in world PvP, now we have tons of bonuses and own people even harder than before, it's awesome". Sounds more like standard world ganking than enjoyable world PvP. No one has argued that there should be no reward for playing, all I'm arguing is that there's no need to give advantages to people just for playing. Make the advantages big, and you ruin the experience hardcore which I'm sure you agree with since you said yourself the advantages shouldn't be insurmountable, if you make the advantages small, they make no difference anyway so who cares?
The point is that there needs to be rewards in order to keep people playing, because otherwise they gain nothing from it and eventually quit. You say that if the advantages are small, they won't make a difference, but at the highest level of play every advantage, no matter how small, makes a difference. Most people these days think that if they played the game for a long time and they fight against someone who is new, that they should have an advantage. That's completely fine when you're fighting random people and random numbers of people all the time. World pvp will never be a competitive part of the game, so don't treat it like it will be. Let me make sure I'm clear. World pvp is for casuals. Arranged pvp is for competitive players.
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On March 14 2012 22:01 MethodSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:48 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:38 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:22 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 20:48 topoulo wrote:
Lets remove the gear earned from pve as well and lets see how this will feel like , just pve for the heck of it
Heck lets remove all rpg elements because some will have clear advantage over others .
Hey isnt there a genre called fps for that ?
Tbh if gw2 dont start rewarding time and effort in pvp i dont see it flurish like it should have been in the end it would just been a glorified dota - lol PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker. In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? But this thinking doesn't compute to how a progression system works within this framework. 1) The bonuses that you get won't give you an insurmountable advantage 2) If there are no rewards that you can feel, there's no reason to keep playing 3) Most of the time you will be fighting alongside other people, meaning that 1v1 almost never happens. Why? Because this is a keep capture based system, so most of the fighting will either be near the keeps, with mass fighting, or groups roaming to score kills or fight other groups. Having no stealth class also makes 1v1 even more unlikely. 1) An advantage is an advantage. People whine every day about imbalance in SC2 which isn't even there, think about the whine when people lose to someone who has 5% more HP? 2) Sure there is. Play to get better, play to enjoy being good, play for cosmetic progression. 3) While this might be a defence for giving advantages to grinders, it doesn't explain what the point is. And it's shallow, 3v3 is even worse if you get into a situation where the other team all have better bonuses which I suppose is common when it comes to guilds playing. The only interesting situation would be a bigger team vs a smaller team which has advantages... but even then, there's not much enjoyment to be had and there's no reason to believe the stronger team will be fewer in numbers. See but you're still under the impression that world pvp can mean something, when it can't. Getting better at world pvp? There's no quantitative evidence to say if you're getting better. Play to enjoy being good? Good players don't play anything if there's no competition. Again, you're equating set number of players fighting to random numbers of players fighting, which is simply wrong. The only way to show skill is to have a set number of players against a set number of players, no bonuses. It's really obvious you've never played a game with world pvp. I don't understand what makes world PvP so different? You're still fighting other players and you'll still be annoyed when they beat you because of bonuses. I also still don't get what this advantage is supposed to accomplish. "Hey, me and my guild ran around and killed small teams of other players in world PvP, now we have tons of bonuses and own people even harder than before, it's awesome". Sounds more like standard world ganking than enjoyable world PvP. No one has argued that there should be no reward for playing, all I'm arguing is that there's no need to give advantages to people just for playing. Make the advantages big, and you ruin the experience hardcore which I'm sure you agree with since you said yourself the advantages shouldn't be insurmountable, if you make the advantages small, they make no difference anyway so who cares? The point is that there needs to be rewards in order to keep people playing, because otherwise they gain nothing from it and eventually quit. You say that if the advantages are small, they won't make a difference, but at the highest level of play every advantage, no matter how small, makes a difference. Most people these days think that if they played the game for a long time and they fight against someone who is new, that they should have an advantage. That's completely fine when you're fighting random people and random numbers of people all the time. World pvp will never be a competitive part of the game, so don't treat it like it will be. Let me make sure I'm clear. World pvp is for casuals. Arranged pvp is for competitive players.
I agree with you, but I don't agree that rewards should = bonuses. "People who have been playing for a long time should have an advantage over a new player". Yeah, they already do. It's called experience and knowledge. They have spent a lot of time doing PvP, they will obviously win against a new player, no need to make the new player doubt if it was because of skill or bonuses.
I mean... why should actual advantages be given to people who have played for a long time, just because they can't stand a new player being better than them? People who are just interested in progression should be fine with the rewards being cosmetic (by cosmetic, I don't mean just looks. Adding cool things for guilds etc would be sweet as well. I don't agree that rewards should affect combat though).
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On March 14 2012 22:01 MethodSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:48 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:38 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:22 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 20:48 topoulo wrote:
Lets remove the gear earned from pve as well and lets see how this will feel like , just pve for the heck of it
Heck lets remove all rpg elements because some will have clear advantage over others .
Hey isnt there a genre called fps for that ?
Tbh if gw2 dont start rewarding time and effort in pvp i dont see it flurish like it should have been in the end it would just been a glorified dota - lol PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker. In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? But this thinking doesn't compute to how a progression system works within this framework. 1) The bonuses that you get won't give you an insurmountable advantage 2) If there are no rewards that you can feel, there's no reason to keep playing 3) Most of the time you will be fighting alongside other people, meaning that 1v1 almost never happens. Why? Because this is a keep capture based system, so most of the fighting will either be near the keeps, with mass fighting, or groups roaming to score kills or fight other groups. Having no stealth class also makes 1v1 even more unlikely. 1) An advantage is an advantage. People whine every day about imbalance in SC2 which isn't even there, think about the whine when people lose to someone who has 5% more HP? 2) Sure there is. Play to get better, play to enjoy being good, play for cosmetic progression. 3) While this might be a defence for giving advantages to grinders, it doesn't explain what the point is. And it's shallow, 3v3 is even worse if you get into a situation where the other team all have better bonuses which I suppose is common when it comes to guilds playing. The only interesting situation would be a bigger team vs a smaller team which has advantages... but even then, there's not much enjoyment to be had and there's no reason to believe the stronger team will be fewer in numbers. See but you're still under the impression that world pvp can mean something, when it can't. Getting better at world pvp? There's no quantitative evidence to say if you're getting better. Play to enjoy being good? Good players don't play anything if there's no competition. Again, you're equating set number of players fighting to random numbers of players fighting, which is simply wrong. The only way to show skill is to have a set number of players against a set number of players, no bonuses. It's really obvious you've never played a game with world pvp. I don't understand what makes world PvP so different? You're still fighting other players and you'll still be annoyed when they beat you because of bonuses. I also still don't get what this advantage is supposed to accomplish. "Hey, me and my guild ran around and killed small teams of other players in world PvP, now we have tons of bonuses and own people even harder than before, it's awesome". Sounds more like standard world ganking than enjoyable world PvP. No one has argued that there should be no reward for playing, all I'm arguing is that there's no need to give advantages to people just for playing. Make the advantages big, and you ruin the experience hardcore which I'm sure you agree with since you said yourself the advantages shouldn't be insurmountable, if you make the advantages small, they make no difference anyway so who cares? The point is that there needs to be rewards in order to keep people playing, because otherwise they gain nothing from it and eventually quit. You say that if the advantages are small, they won't make a difference, but at the highest level of play every advantage, no matter how small, makes a difference. Most people these days think that if they played the game for a long time and they fight against someone who is new, that they should have an advantage. That's completely fine when you're fighting random people and random numbers of people all the time. World pvp will never be a competitive part of the game, so don't treat it like it will be. Let me make sure I'm clear. World pvp is for casuals. Arranged pvp is for competitive players.
Having people win not because they're more skilled but because they have better stats at the same level is the most anti-competitive notion ever. It's what killed WoW pvp by making it a "you suck until you have X resilience" crap. Just keep it simple. Put everyone, at the competitive level, on an even keel. Best player wins. And this notion of "oh there's something for that already called FPS'" needs to stop. By that very same notion, RTS' like Starcraft are flawed too because they put players on even levels. The best competitive environment is when everyone is equal and only skill differentiates players.
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On March 14 2012 22:07 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:01 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:48 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:38 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:22 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 20:48 topoulo wrote:
Lets remove the gear earned from pve as well and lets see how this will feel like , just pve for the heck of it
Heck lets remove all rpg elements because some will have clear advantage over others .
Hey isnt there a genre called fps for that ?
Tbh if gw2 dont start rewarding time and effort in pvp i dont see it flurish like it should have been in the end it would just been a glorified dota - lol PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker. In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? But this thinking doesn't compute to how a progression system works within this framework. 1) The bonuses that you get won't give you an insurmountable advantage 2) If there are no rewards that you can feel, there's no reason to keep playing 3) Most of the time you will be fighting alongside other people, meaning that 1v1 almost never happens. Why? Because this is a keep capture based system, so most of the fighting will either be near the keeps, with mass fighting, or groups roaming to score kills or fight other groups. Having no stealth class also makes 1v1 even more unlikely. 1) An advantage is an advantage. People whine every day about imbalance in SC2 which isn't even there, think about the whine when people lose to someone who has 5% more HP? 2) Sure there is. Play to get better, play to enjoy being good, play for cosmetic progression. 3) While this might be a defence for giving advantages to grinders, it doesn't explain what the point is. And it's shallow, 3v3 is even worse if you get into a situation where the other team all have better bonuses which I suppose is common when it comes to guilds playing. The only interesting situation would be a bigger team vs a smaller team which has advantages... but even then, there's not much enjoyment to be had and there's no reason to believe the stronger team will be fewer in numbers. See but you're still under the impression that world pvp can mean something, when it can't. Getting better at world pvp? There's no quantitative evidence to say if you're getting better. Play to enjoy being good? Good players don't play anything if there's no competition. Again, you're equating set number of players fighting to random numbers of players fighting, which is simply wrong. The only way to show skill is to have a set number of players against a set number of players, no bonuses. It's really obvious you've never played a game with world pvp. I don't understand what makes world PvP so different? You're still fighting other players and you'll still be annoyed when they beat you because of bonuses. I also still don't get what this advantage is supposed to accomplish. "Hey, me and my guild ran around and killed small teams of other players in world PvP, now we have tons of bonuses and own people even harder than before, it's awesome". Sounds more like standard world ganking than enjoyable world PvP. No one has argued that there should be no reward for playing, all I'm arguing is that there's no need to give advantages to people just for playing. Make the advantages big, and you ruin the experience hardcore which I'm sure you agree with since you said yourself the advantages shouldn't be insurmountable, if you make the advantages small, they make no difference anyway so who cares? The point is that there needs to be rewards in order to keep people playing, because otherwise they gain nothing from it and eventually quit. You say that if the advantages are small, they won't make a difference, but at the highest level of play every advantage, no matter how small, makes a difference. Most people these days think that if they played the game for a long time and they fight against someone who is new, that they should have an advantage. That's completely fine when you're fighting random people and random numbers of people all the time. World pvp will never be a competitive part of the game, so don't treat it like it will be. Let me make sure I'm clear. World pvp is for casuals. Arranged pvp is for competitive players. I agree with you, but I don't agree that rewards should = bonuses. "People who have been playing for a long time should have an advantage over a new player". Yeah, they already do. It's called experience and knowledge. They have spent a lot of time doing PvP, they will obviously win against a new player, no need to make the new player doubt if it was because of skill or bonuses. I mean... why should actual advantages be given to people who have played for a long time, just because they can't stand a new player being better than them? People who are just interested in progression should be fine with the rewards being cosmetic (by cosmetic, I don't mean just looks. Adding cool things for guilds etc would be sweet as well. I don't agree that rewards should affect combat though).
Everyone reacts differently to things. think if you were a casual player or an unskilled player. You play the game for a few months and you have some cosmetic pieces. Some new player comes around and kills you. You get mad and ask yourself why am i even playing this? for some stupid shit that does nothing for me? Those kinds of people are out there and they will quit the game after having this happen multiple times. And this is to even give a 1v1 scenario, which is almost never going to happen. People think differently as well. For example it's good enough for you to just have a better looking character for playing. Some people think that their character should be better for playing more. I'm not trying to argue for or against what kind of bonuses, because at the end of the day you're out there killing people to kill people or taking keeps to take keeps along with whatever rewards they have. I'm only saying for how they can have the most people playing so I can have more competition in the real pvp 
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On March 14 2012 22:17 Candadar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:01 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:48 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:38 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:22 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 20:48 topoulo wrote:
Lets remove the gear earned from pve as well and lets see how this will feel like , just pve for the heck of it
Heck lets remove all rpg elements because some will have clear advantage over others .
Hey isnt there a genre called fps for that ?
Tbh if gw2 dont start rewarding time and effort in pvp i dont see it flurish like it should have been in the end it would just been a glorified dota - lol PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker. In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? But this thinking doesn't compute to how a progression system works within this framework. 1) The bonuses that you get won't give you an insurmountable advantage 2) If there are no rewards that you can feel, there's no reason to keep playing 3) Most of the time you will be fighting alongside other people, meaning that 1v1 almost never happens. Why? Because this is a keep capture based system, so most of the fighting will either be near the keeps, with mass fighting, or groups roaming to score kills or fight other groups. Having no stealth class also makes 1v1 even more unlikely. 1) An advantage is an advantage. People whine every day about imbalance in SC2 which isn't even there, think about the whine when people lose to someone who has 5% more HP? 2) Sure there is. Play to get better, play to enjoy being good, play for cosmetic progression. 3) While this might be a defence for giving advantages to grinders, it doesn't explain what the point is. And it's shallow, 3v3 is even worse if you get into a situation where the other team all have better bonuses which I suppose is common when it comes to guilds playing. The only interesting situation would be a bigger team vs a smaller team which has advantages... but even then, there's not much enjoyment to be had and there's no reason to believe the stronger team will be fewer in numbers. See but you're still under the impression that world pvp can mean something, when it can't. Getting better at world pvp? There's no quantitative evidence to say if you're getting better. Play to enjoy being good? Good players don't play anything if there's no competition. Again, you're equating set number of players fighting to random numbers of players fighting, which is simply wrong. The only way to show skill is to have a set number of players against a set number of players, no bonuses. It's really obvious you've never played a game with world pvp. I don't understand what makes world PvP so different? You're still fighting other players and you'll still be annoyed when they beat you because of bonuses. I also still don't get what this advantage is supposed to accomplish. "Hey, me and my guild ran around and killed small teams of other players in world PvP, now we have tons of bonuses and own people even harder than before, it's awesome". Sounds more like standard world ganking than enjoyable world PvP. No one has argued that there should be no reward for playing, all I'm arguing is that there's no need to give advantages to people just for playing. Make the advantages big, and you ruin the experience hardcore which I'm sure you agree with since you said yourself the advantages shouldn't be insurmountable, if you make the advantages small, they make no difference anyway so who cares? The point is that there needs to be rewards in order to keep people playing, because otherwise they gain nothing from it and eventually quit. You say that if the advantages are small, they won't make a difference, but at the highest level of play every advantage, no matter how small, makes a difference. Most people these days think that if they played the game for a long time and they fight against someone who is new, that they should have an advantage. That's completely fine when you're fighting random people and random numbers of people all the time. World pvp will never be a competitive part of the game, so don't treat it like it will be. Let me make sure I'm clear. World pvp is for casuals. Arranged pvp is for competitive players. Having people win not because they're more skilled but because they have better stats at the same level is the most anti-competitive notion ever. It's what killed WoW pvp by making it a "you suck until you have X resilience" crap. Just keep it simple. Put everyone, at the competitive level, on an even keel. Best player wins. And this notion of "oh there's something for that already called FPS'" needs to stop. By that very same notion, RTS' like Starcraft are flawed too because they put players on even levels. The best competitive environment is when everyone is equal and only skill differentiates players.
That's the exact point I was making, so I'm not sure why the tone of your post is so argumentative.
I will address something though. World pvp is to mmo's as FFA is to Starcraft.
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Wait wait wait, PvP is going to give stat bonuses to the winning side ?
Are you kidding?
....I guess i wont be buying this game?
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On March 14 2012 22:24 MethodSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:17 Candadar wrote:On March 14 2012 22:01 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:48 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:38 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:22 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 20:48 topoulo wrote:
Lets remove the gear earned from pve as well and lets see how this will feel like , just pve for the heck of it
Heck lets remove all rpg elements because some will have clear advantage over others .
Hey isnt there a genre called fps for that ?
Tbh if gw2 dont start rewarding time and effort in pvp i dont see it flurish like it should have been in the end it would just been a glorified dota - lol PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker. In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? But this thinking doesn't compute to how a progression system works within this framework. 1) The bonuses that you get won't give you an insurmountable advantage 2) If there are no rewards that you can feel, there's no reason to keep playing 3) Most of the time you will be fighting alongside other people, meaning that 1v1 almost never happens. Why? Because this is a keep capture based system, so most of the fighting will either be near the keeps, with mass fighting, or groups roaming to score kills or fight other groups. Having no stealth class also makes 1v1 even more unlikely. 1) An advantage is an advantage. People whine every day about imbalance in SC2 which isn't even there, think about the whine when people lose to someone who has 5% more HP? 2) Sure there is. Play to get better, play to enjoy being good, play for cosmetic progression. 3) While this might be a defence for giving advantages to grinders, it doesn't explain what the point is. And it's shallow, 3v3 is even worse if you get into a situation where the other team all have better bonuses which I suppose is common when it comes to guilds playing. The only interesting situation would be a bigger team vs a smaller team which has advantages... but even then, there's not much enjoyment to be had and there's no reason to believe the stronger team will be fewer in numbers. See but you're still under the impression that world pvp can mean something, when it can't. Getting better at world pvp? There's no quantitative evidence to say if you're getting better. Play to enjoy being good? Good players don't play anything if there's no competition. Again, you're equating set number of players fighting to random numbers of players fighting, which is simply wrong. The only way to show skill is to have a set number of players against a set number of players, no bonuses. It's really obvious you've never played a game with world pvp. I don't understand what makes world PvP so different? You're still fighting other players and you'll still be annoyed when they beat you because of bonuses. I also still don't get what this advantage is supposed to accomplish. "Hey, me and my guild ran around and killed small teams of other players in world PvP, now we have tons of bonuses and own people even harder than before, it's awesome". Sounds more like standard world ganking than enjoyable world PvP. No one has argued that there should be no reward for playing, all I'm arguing is that there's no need to give advantages to people just for playing. Make the advantages big, and you ruin the experience hardcore which I'm sure you agree with since you said yourself the advantages shouldn't be insurmountable, if you make the advantages small, they make no difference anyway so who cares? The point is that there needs to be rewards in order to keep people playing, because otherwise they gain nothing from it and eventually quit. You say that if the advantages are small, they won't make a difference, but at the highest level of play every advantage, no matter how small, makes a difference. Most people these days think that if they played the game for a long time and they fight against someone who is new, that they should have an advantage. That's completely fine when you're fighting random people and random numbers of people all the time. World pvp will never be a competitive part of the game, so don't treat it like it will be. Let me make sure I'm clear. World pvp is for casuals. Arranged pvp is for competitive players. Having people win not because they're more skilled but because they have better stats at the same level is the most anti-competitive notion ever. It's what killed WoW pvp by making it a "you suck until you have X resilience" crap. Just keep it simple. Put everyone, at the competitive level, on an even keel. Best player wins. And this notion of "oh there's something for that already called FPS'" needs to stop. By that very same notion, RTS' like Starcraft are flawed too because they put players on even levels. The best competitive environment is when everyone is equal and only skill differentiates players. That's the exact point I was making, so I'm not sure why the tone of your post is so argumentative.
Umm from reading your previous posts you seem to be saying that a lot of people have come to expect better gear and tangible bonuses over those who have been playing less and that GW2 is missing out on this group of gamers by not catering to them.
That may be true but the philosophy behind GW2 and the original GW has always been about the competitive mindset that success is entirely reliant on ones skill and not outside factors such as gear/time spent playing.
I personaly don't see what the last 2 pages of arguing have been about. There is nothing wrong with prefering a wow oriented model but everything revealed so far indicates that GW2 is taking the opposite direction and I don't see that changing substantially this late in the development process.
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On March 14 2012 22:32 Capped wrote:
Wait wait wait, PvP is going to give stat bonuses to the winning side ?
Are you kidding?
....I guess i wont be buying this game?
No. It's not 'stat' bonuses. Read up a little before you say stupid things like that.
You're thinking of WvW (World vs World vs World - yes you verse another two servers other than your own) where you fight for keeps/towers/castles on a HUGE map. It's a massively large-scale type of PvP that lasts for 2 weeks at a time. Upon ending the server that comes out on top wins buffs such as increased XP rate, increased influence/gold/guild rewards etc.
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On March 14 2012 22:32 Capped wrote:
Wait wait wait, PvP is going to give stat bonuses to the winning side ?
Are you kidding?
....I guess i wont be buying this game?
No, it won't. Some people are arguing that it should.
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On March 14 2012 22:32 Capped wrote:
Wait wait wait, PvP is going to give stat bonuses to the winning side ?
Are you kidding?
....I guess i wont be buying this game?
World PvP gives some minor bonuses for PvE afaik
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So they pretty much ripped of daoc, with the difference that the 'WvW' stuff was a persistent zone and whoever controlled the castles got buffs for his faction. They even went to the length of implementing three factions instead of the usual bad vs evil stuff.
I think I am in love. =)
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On March 14 2012 22:34 SpookCell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:24 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 22:17 Candadar wrote:On March 14 2012 22:01 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:48 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:38 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:22 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 20:48 topoulo wrote:
Lets remove the gear earned from pve as well and lets see how this will feel like , just pve for the heck of it
Heck lets remove all rpg elements because some will have clear advantage over others .
Hey isnt there a genre called fps for that ?
Tbh if gw2 dont start rewarding time and effort in pvp i dont see it flurish like it should have been in the end it would just been a glorified dota - lol PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker. In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? But this thinking doesn't compute to how a progression system works within this framework. 1) The bonuses that you get won't give you an insurmountable advantage 2) If there are no rewards that you can feel, there's no reason to keep playing 3) Most of the time you will be fighting alongside other people, meaning that 1v1 almost never happens. Why? Because this is a keep capture based system, so most of the fighting will either be near the keeps, with mass fighting, or groups roaming to score kills or fight other groups. Having no stealth class also makes 1v1 even more unlikely. 1) An advantage is an advantage. People whine every day about imbalance in SC2 which isn't even there, think about the whine when people lose to someone who has 5% more HP? 2) Sure there is. Play to get better, play to enjoy being good, play for cosmetic progression. 3) While this might be a defence for giving advantages to grinders, it doesn't explain what the point is. And it's shallow, 3v3 is even worse if you get into a situation where the other team all have better bonuses which I suppose is common when it comes to guilds playing. The only interesting situation would be a bigger team vs a smaller team which has advantages... but even then, there's not much enjoyment to be had and there's no reason to believe the stronger team will be fewer in numbers. See but you're still under the impression that world pvp can mean something, when it can't. Getting better at world pvp? There's no quantitative evidence to say if you're getting better. Play to enjoy being good? Good players don't play anything if there's no competition. Again, you're equating set number of players fighting to random numbers of players fighting, which is simply wrong. The only way to show skill is to have a set number of players against a set number of players, no bonuses. It's really obvious you've never played a game with world pvp. I don't understand what makes world PvP so different? You're still fighting other players and you'll still be annoyed when they beat you because of bonuses. I also still don't get what this advantage is supposed to accomplish. "Hey, me and my guild ran around and killed small teams of other players in world PvP, now we have tons of bonuses and own people even harder than before, it's awesome". Sounds more like standard world ganking than enjoyable world PvP. No one has argued that there should be no reward for playing, all I'm arguing is that there's no need to give advantages to people just for playing. Make the advantages big, and you ruin the experience hardcore which I'm sure you agree with since you said yourself the advantages shouldn't be insurmountable, if you make the advantages small, they make no difference anyway so who cares? The point is that there needs to be rewards in order to keep people playing, because otherwise they gain nothing from it and eventually quit. You say that if the advantages are small, they won't make a difference, but at the highest level of play every advantage, no matter how small, makes a difference. Most people these days think that if they played the game for a long time and they fight against someone who is new, that they should have an advantage. That's completely fine when you're fighting random people and random numbers of people all the time. World pvp will never be a competitive part of the game, so don't treat it like it will be. Let me make sure I'm clear. World pvp is for casuals. Arranged pvp is for competitive players. Having people win not because they're more skilled but because they have better stats at the same level is the most anti-competitive notion ever. It's what killed WoW pvp by making it a "you suck until you have X resilience" crap. Just keep it simple. Put everyone, at the competitive level, on an even keel. Best player wins. And this notion of "oh there's something for that already called FPS'" needs to stop. By that very same notion, RTS' like Starcraft are flawed too because they put players on even levels. The best competitive environment is when everyone is equal and only skill differentiates players. That's the exact point I was making, so I'm not sure why the tone of your post is so argumentative. Umm from reading your previous posts you seem to be saying that a lot of people have come to expect better gear and tangible bonuses over those who have been playing less and that GW2 is missing out on this group of gamers by not catering to them. That may be true but the philosophy behind GW2 and the original GW has always been about the competitive mindset that success is entirely reliant on ones skill and not outside factors such as gear/time spent playing. I personaly don't see what the last 2 pages of arguing have been about. There is nothing wrong with prefering a wow oriented model but everything revealed so far indicates that GW2 is taking the opposite direction and I don't see that changing substantially this late in the development process.
You just don't understand why they added world pvp into the game do you? There's only 1 reason why world pvp would be introduced to the game, and that reason is to draw CASUALS. What are the chances of a hardcore player doing world pvp other than shits and giggles? I'll tell you right now there's no other reason that I'm going to do it than that. So why would I care if some casuals go and get little advantages that I can just topple over regardless of the fact? But they'll keep playing for that exact reason, to try and gain more little advantages to make up for their lack of skill. They won't even try the arranged pvp or if they do, they'll get sick of it quick, so what keeps them playing the game? The chance to beat those people that are better than them. If there's no way for them to make up for the lack of skill, what's the reason to keep playing?
Edit: My posts aren't to be taken like, "this is what they should do, because it's the best". All I'm saying is that if they want to have bigger numbers playing they need to take this into account.
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Minor bonuses to PvE? thats it?
Thats fair lol why is everyone complaining
Panic over.
On March 14 2012 22:38 cozzE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:32 Capped wrote:
Wait wait wait, PvP is going to give stat bonuses to the winning side ?
Are you kidding?
....I guess i wont be buying this game? No. It's not 'stat' bonuses. Read up a little before you say stupid things like that.
Yes, im saying stupid things. By asking questions about things i dont fully understand.
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On March 14 2012 22:41 disformation wrote:
So they pretty much ripped of daoc, with the difference that the 'WvW' stuff was a persistent zone and whoever controlled the castles got buffs for his faction. They even went to the length of implementing three factions instead of the usual bad vs evil stuff.
I think I am in love. =)
They should make a dungeon like DF and have it work the exact same way. But that would just be the cherry on top of this delicious ice cream.
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has anyone received a beta key yet? All I got was a video on facebook :O
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It makes me sad too so many haters of competitive gaming, who think only reason to play PvP is to get achievements and better character and better weapons. You play GW PvP because you want to become a better player, not because your character gets bonuses. You want to win because you're better player, not because you have more powerful character. Saying that "gw2 is rpg so your character must get better over time" is just ridiculous. If a game is considered an rpg, it doesn't mean it has to follow some stupid rules you just made.
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On March 14 2012 22:50 MethodSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:34 SpookCell wrote:On March 14 2012 22:24 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 22:17 Candadar wrote:On March 14 2012 22:01 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:48 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:38 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:22 Tobberoth wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 MethodSC wrote:On March 14 2012 21:03 Tobberoth wrote:
[quote]
PvE and PvP is not comparable. If a guild has beaten the toughest bosses and have bad ass gear, that doesn't change anything for me who hasn't killed any of the end bosses and have shit gear. It just means their guild is more successful and has completed the challenges quicker.
In PvP, there's a dependence on you being able to fight other players and if they are better than you because they spent more time, this becomes broken. You can catch up in PvE, just get your guild together and deal with the PvE challenges. In PvP, how will you catch up when you're losing because you don't have the bonuses and you're not getting the bonuses because you're not winning? And how are you enjoying this? PvE is just as fun in bad gear as in good gear, you deal with the challenges in your reach. PvP without bonuses is hardly going to be fun unless you're in a situation where you only play against other people without bonuses... then what was the point of the bonuses again? But this thinking doesn't compute to how a progression system works within this framework. 1) The bonuses that you get won't give you an insurmountable advantage 2) If there are no rewards that you can feel, there's no reason to keep playing 3) Most of the time you will be fighting alongside other people, meaning that 1v1 almost never happens. Why? Because this is a keep capture based system, so most of the fighting will either be near the keeps, with mass fighting, or groups roaming to score kills or fight other groups. Having no stealth class also makes 1v1 even more unlikely. 1) An advantage is an advantage. People whine every day about imbalance in SC2 which isn't even there, think about the whine when people lose to someone who has 5% more HP? 2) Sure there is. Play to get better, play to enjoy being good, play for cosmetic progression. 3) While this might be a defence for giving advantages to grinders, it doesn't explain what the point is. And it's shallow, 3v3 is even worse if you get into a situation where the other team all have better bonuses which I suppose is common when it comes to guilds playing. The only interesting situation would be a bigger team vs a smaller team which has advantages... but even then, there's not much enjoyment to be had and there's no reason to believe the stronger team will be fewer in numbers. See but you're still under the impression that world pvp can mean something, when it can't. Getting better at world pvp? There's no quantitative evidence to say if you're getting better. Play to enjoy being good? Good players don't play anything if there's no competition. Again, you're equating set number of players fighting to random numbers of players fighting, which is simply wrong. The only way to show skill is to have a set number of players against a set number of players, no bonuses. It's really obvious you've never played a game with world pvp. I don't understand what makes world PvP so different? You're still fighting other players and you'll still be annoyed when they beat you because of bonuses. I also still don't get what this advantage is supposed to accomplish. "Hey, me and my guild ran around and killed small teams of other players in world PvP, now we have tons of bonuses and own people even harder than before, it's awesome". Sounds more like standard world ganking than enjoyable world PvP. No one has argued that there should be no reward for playing, all I'm arguing is that there's no need to give advantages to people just for playing. Make the advantages big, and you ruin the experience hardcore which I'm sure you agree with since you said yourself the advantages shouldn't be insurmountable, if you make the advantages small, they make no difference anyway so who cares? The point is that there needs to be rewards in order to keep people playing, because otherwise they gain nothing from it and eventually quit. You say that if the advantages are small, they won't make a difference, but at the highest level of play every advantage, no matter how small, makes a difference. Most people these days think that if they played the game for a long time and they fight against someone who is new, that they should have an advantage. That's completely fine when you're fighting random people and random numbers of people all the time. World pvp will never be a competitive part of the game, so don't treat it like it will be. Let me make sure I'm clear. World pvp is for casuals. Arranged pvp is for competitive players. Having people win not because they're more skilled but because they have better stats at the same level is the most anti-competitive notion ever. It's what killed WoW pvp by making it a "you suck until you have X resilience" crap. Just keep it simple. Put everyone, at the competitive level, on an even keel. Best player wins. And this notion of "oh there's something for that already called FPS'" needs to stop. By that very same notion, RTS' like Starcraft are flawed too because they put players on even levels. The best competitive environment is when everyone is equal and only skill differentiates players. That's the exact point I was making, so I'm not sure why the tone of your post is so argumentative. Umm from reading your previous posts you seem to be saying that a lot of people have come to expect better gear and tangible bonuses over those who have been playing less and that GW2 is missing out on this group of gamers by not catering to them. That may be true but the philosophy behind GW2 and the original GW has always been about the competitive mindset that success is entirely reliant on ones skill and not outside factors such as gear/time spent playing. I personaly don't see what the last 2 pages of arguing have been about. There is nothing wrong with prefering a wow oriented model but everything revealed so far indicates that GW2 is taking the opposite direction and I don't see that changing substantially this late in the development process. You just don't understand why they added world pvp into the game do you? There's only 1 reason why world pvp would be introduced to the game, and that reason is to draw CASUALS. What are the chances of a hardcore player doing world pvp other than shits and giggles? I'll tell you right now there's no other reason that I'm going to do it than that. So why would I care if some casuals go and get little advantages that I can just topple over regardless of the fact? But they'll keep playing for that exact reason, to try and gain more little advantages to make up for their lack of skill. They won't even try the arranged pvp or if they do, they'll get sick of it quick, so what keeps them playing the game? The chance to beat those people that are better than them. If there's no way for them to make up for the lack of skill, what's the reason to keep playing? Edit: My posts aren't to be taken like, "this is what they should do, because it's the best". All I'm saying is that if they want to have bigger numbers playing they need to take this into account.
I don't know maybe they thought people would find it fun. But apparently it's a diabolical plan to capture 100% of the market.
The thing is in the system you're talking about "casuals" inevitably lose since they are the ones playing less and will have less of this gear advantage than the more serious competitive players. Unless you're talking about people who play a lot but just aren't very good, in which case that's another issues entirely.
The original GW also had these casual oriented PvP modes and none of them offered accumulated advantage through playtime.
Personally I don't really care if they have some minor advantages in WvW but the danger is you start creating separate rules for each game type which can be confusing to new players especially. I think the best is to go the route they're going and ween people off this time=gear mentality instead of trying to play it down the middle and end up not pleasing anyone.
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lolol I am sold on this game
skill oriented
can cast multiple stuff while moving
multiple stances with separate cool downs
low global cd
movement and usage of terrain
this is how a pvp should be like if you ask me and I did tons of pvp on a pro level
http://teamomnipresence.com/prereleaseeleoverview/ watch this pvp movie on higher lvl than casual
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EPT
