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On January 19 2011 02:25 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 02:19 FireBearHero wrote:On January 18 2011 10:12 DannyJ wrote:
I watched the NFL replay of the week 1 Eagles vs Packers the other day.
Jermichael Finely is perhaps the most beastly man I've ever seen. The fact that the packers kept their offense rolling almost better than it's ever been when Finley and Grant went down really is impressive.
The Packers have done an impressive job overcoming injuries all year really, more so on defense than offense (though the loss of grant and finley did really hurt). Packers have 15 players on IR right now compared to a combined 13 of the other 3 remaining teams combined (according to NFL.com rosters at least). How many of those are teams putting a rookie on IR so they don't take up a roster spot but another team can't grab them? I know Chicago did that with Harvey Unga this year. I assume other teams are doing it as well? Straight up numbers of players on IR doesn't always tell the full story.
Quick run down:
Chillar: Semi starter, shares time with AJ Hawk ... Hawk played in some packages, Chillar in others, but Hawk was hardly playing until Chillar was hurt.
Grant: Starting RB
Finley: Starting TE
Bell: Non serious ... he was like a dimeback last year due to injuries
Burnett: Starting SS due to Bigby being on PUP
Martin: Might have been next in line after Burnett, but got hurt at the same time so I'm not sure if they woulda chose him over Peprah at SS.
Jones: Starter at OLB
Harrell: Would have been a rotation guy at DE, not a big deal since he is always hurt anyway
Havner: Not a big deal, we picked him up when Lee and Quarless were hurt at TE, probably wouldn't have played much after the got healthy
Tauscher: Would have started at RT to at least start the season.
Neal: Would have been at the top of the guys who rotate in at DE
Newhouse: Back up OL, not a big deal
Smith: Another SS on the IR
Poppinga: Jones' back up at OLB
Barnett: Starter at ILB
It is a bit inflated with a few non serious injuries like Bell, Havner, Harrell, and Newhouse ... but overall its not good, especially at LB.
Edit: It should also be mentioned there are a few other players who were key contributors last season and in the past that don't show up here. Few examples: Al Harris (Miami's IR), Will Blackmon (Giants IR), and Bigby (was on pup and has never really gotten healthy yet, but doubt they would change to him this late even if healthy).
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On January 19 2011 02:31 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 02:25 Qatol wrote:On January 19 2011 02:19 FireBearHero wrote:On January 18 2011 10:12 DannyJ wrote:
I watched the NFL replay of the week 1 Eagles vs Packers the other day.
Jermichael Finely is perhaps the most beastly man I've ever seen. The fact that the packers kept their offense rolling almost better than it's ever been when Finley and Grant went down really is impressive.
The Packers have done an impressive job overcoming injuries all year really, more so on defense than offense (though the loss of grant and finley did really hurt). Packers have 15 players on IR right now compared to a combined 13 of the other 3 remaining teams combined (according to NFL.com rosters at least). How many of those are teams putting a rookie on IR so they don't take up a roster spot but another team can't grab them? I know Chicago did that with Harvey Unga this year. I assume other teams are doing it as well? Straight up numbers of players on IR doesn't always tell the full story. You can't do that. Once they're medically cleared to play, they come off of IR, making them a free agent. See: Shawn Merriman. If a player is on IR, he has been declared physically incapable of playing that season. The PUP list is a short term IR.
Hmm that surprises me because every year I see low tier/ inexperienced players go to IR with seemingly minor injuries and they are done for the season. (See Unga this year or Melton last year.) I just assumed that the team was stashing them for the next season while saving a roster spot. Maybe they just aren't big names, so their injuries aren't talked about very much.
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Really - when you respond to my posts stop coming back with stats and telling me to go check my facts. I know what I'm talking about and if you could get off your soapbox that'd be great.
Driver didn't have a great year but he's still a solid WR. He had something like 6-7 seasons straight before this one with over 1,000 yds receiving. Jennings is a stud too. Finley is amazing and losing him had its impact... with his size he's probably going to be the next antonio gates. And while Rivers was throwing to Gates occasionally his WR's were Nanee and Crayton and still almost threw for 5k - that's insane. Having a #1 WR is huge - and that's what makes people like Crayton and Jones look good. They aren't amazing WR's but they're fast and work well in the slot. It's hard to imagine what Rodgers would have looked like this year with the personnel situation on offense Rivers had.
Just saying because he's a mobile QB he's better than Rivers is with this 5 tool player talk is so dumb. Yes, it adds another dimension to their play. Let's be real - run with your logic Vick is the best QB in the league. He ran pretty close to double what Rodgers did and played in three less games than rodgers. "For funsies" that number would be a lot higher if he played in 3 more games and probably would have only thrown for a few hundred less. Just because they can run - it goes Vick Rodgers BigBen Brady Manning etc. Montana can't hold a candle to steve young bc young was that much more mobile right?
I really don't think either QB is better than the other. They're both amazingly good for how young they are. To say "it's not even debateable" that Rodgers is that much better than Rivers is riding the flavor of the week. Rivers has been around a little longer than Rodgers, and done more than Rodgers has in the playoffs, and playing against much better teams too.
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On January 19 2011 02:47 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 02:31 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On January 19 2011 02:25 Qatol wrote:On January 19 2011 02:19 FireBearHero wrote:On January 18 2011 10:12 DannyJ wrote:
I watched the NFL replay of the week 1 Eagles vs Packers the other day.
Jermichael Finely is perhaps the most beastly man I've ever seen. The fact that the packers kept their offense rolling almost better than it's ever been when Finley and Grant went down really is impressive.
The Packers have done an impressive job overcoming injuries all year really, more so on defense than offense (though the loss of grant and finley did really hurt). Packers have 15 players on IR right now compared to a combined 13 of the other 3 remaining teams combined (according to NFL.com rosters at least). How many of those are teams putting a rookie on IR so they don't take up a roster spot but another team can't grab them? I know Chicago did that with Harvey Unga this year. I assume other teams are doing it as well? Straight up numbers of players on IR doesn't always tell the full story. You can't do that. Once they're medically cleared to play, they come off of IR, making them a free agent. See: Shawn Merriman. If a player is on IR, he has been declared physically incapable of playing that season. The PUP list is a short term IR. Hmm that surprises me because every year I see low tier/ inexperienced players go to IR with seemingly minor injuries and they are done for the season. (See Unga this year or Melton last year.) I just assumed that the team was stashing them for the next season while saving a roster spot. Maybe they just aren't big names, so their injuries aren't talked about very much.
Seemingly minor are sometimes major though. Urlacher had a wrist problem that set him out an entire season. It just so happens that, had they waited another 1.5 hours to set his wrist, he would have lost mobility in his hand, probably permanently. So, things aren't always as they seem.
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Reports coming out that the Cowboys are "open to trading" Dez Bryant. I cant believe theres any legitimacy to these reports. Is he really that big of a diva? Thoughts?
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On January 19 2011 02:31 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
This year, yes, mostly anyway. Last year? No way. VJax is better than any WR the Packers have, but mostly because of his size (the Packers WR's aren't the out-jump the opponent kind of WR's like VJax, and the guy can run routes). The rest of the WR's are capable in SD, as well. Then you have Gates... their running game isn't great, but neither is GB's (SD>GB this year though, for rushing anyway).
Vincent Jackson is not better than Jennings. Even statistically he's not. Then you're going to say Donald Driver and Malcom Floyd are a wash?
My brains going to explode.
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On January 19 2011 02:48 Shindou wrote:
Really - when you respond to my posts stop coming back with stats and telling me to go check my facts. I know what I'm talking about and if you could get off your soapbox that'd be great.
Driver didn't have a great year but he's still a solid WR. He had something like 6-7 seasons straight before this one with over 1,000 yds receiving. Jennings is a stud too. Finley is amazing and losing him had its impact... with his size he's probably going to be the next antonio gates. And while Rivers was throwing to Gates occasionally his WR's were Nanee and Crayton and still almost threw for 5k - that's insane. Having a #1 WR is huge - and that's what makes people like Crayton and Jones look good. They aren't amazing WR's but they're fast and work well in the slot. It's hard to imagine what Rodgers would have looked like this year with the personnel situation on offense Rivers had.
Just saying because he's a mobile QB he's better than Rivers is with this 5 tool player talk is so dumb. Yes, it adds another dimension to their play. Let's be real - run with your logic Vick is the best QB in the league. He ran pretty close to double what Rodgers did and played in three less games than rodgers. "For funsies" that number would be a lot higher if he played in 3 more games and probably would have only thrown for a few hundred less. Just because they can run - it goes Vick Rodgers BigBen Brady Manning etc. Montana can't hold a candle to steve young bc young was that much more mobile right?
I really don't think either QB is better than the other. They're both amazingly good for how young they are. To say "it's not even debateable" that Rodgers is that much better than Rivers is riding the flavor of the week. Rivers has been around a little longer than Rodgers, and done more than Rodgers has in the playoffs, and playing against much better teams too.
You clearly don't, because you were unbelievably wrong. You look dumb when you say "player A shits on player B statistically," then player A is just slightly better than player B.
Your comparison is asinine, because Vick isn't also a pocket passer. And if you claim that he became one this season, your opinion on football goes entirely out the window. Vick is still largely the same QB that he was in ATL, and he's proven that over the last few weeks. He still makes wildly inaccurate throws, shows poor decision making, can't read a defense presnap (as evidenced by the fact that the exact same blitz works against him all game long), and can't complete medium distance throws. Furthermore, Vick's mechanics are questionable, at best. He showed SOME improvement from his days in Atlanta, but his stats were likely due to an incredible amount of speed and talent around him, more so than him being an amazing passer.
Your other comparisons are equally stupid, because your argument would assume that they were equal pocket passers, which isn't the case for the players you mentioned. However, in the case of Rodgers vs Rivers, they are nearly equal, if not completely equal pocket passers. Because of their equivalence in pocket passing, you must account for the other things the players do. Since Rivers can't scramble well, and hasn't shown the ability to throw on the run, or out of awkward positions (as Rodgers has), Rodgers is the superior player.
So if you want to continue to debate, then pull your head out of your ass and stop building straw men.
On January 19 2011 02:57 Shindou wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 02:31 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
This year, yes, mostly anyway. Last year? No way. VJax is better than any WR the Packers have, but mostly because of his size (the Packers WR's aren't the out-jump the opponent kind of WR's like VJax, and the guy can run routes). The rest of the WR's are capable in SD, as well. Then you have Gates... their running game isn't great, but neither is GB's (SD>GB this year though, for rushing anyway).
Vincent Jackson is not better than Jennings. Even statistically he's not. Then you're going to say Donald Driver and Malcom Floyd are a wash? My brains going to explode.
Of course not. Driver is one of the all-time great #2's in the history of the NFL. The guy is the prototypical #2 WR. Willing to take catches over the middle, clean route runner, used to have some speed for separation.. granted he's older now, so that's not the case so much anymore, but that doesn't apply to the first ~10 years of his career.
VJax can run routes decently, has speed, size, and strength. Jennings is fast as fuck, can run routes. VJax just hasn't had enough time to prove himself. Not surprisingly, though, he was in talks of being a top 3 WR after his break out season. He didn't do much this year, except vs SF, but you can probably chalk that up to nearly a season of inactivity. By the way, VERY similar statistically (shocking that you're wrong again).
VJax
2009 59 1,098 18.6 60 7
2008 68 1,167 17.2 55 9
2009 68 1,113 16.4 83T 4
2008 80 1,292 16.2 63 9
Look, all I'm saying is come correct, or don't come at all. Jennings wins in yardage, VJax in TD's. VJax wins in TD's, mostly due to his size advantage. Physicality matters at the WR position, VJax has more of it. This here... this is getting shit on. This is not what Rivers does to Rodgers.
And I'm not saying you don't know football; I'm saying you're misremembering things, and you need to double check yourself before posting bullshit and looking dumb. I've written out three paragraph responses, then double checked the stats and said "well shit, I'm gonna look REALLY stupid if I put all that in there, I was way off on what happened in that game."
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Yeah, my opinion is thrown out the window. Vick is totally the same QB he always was in ATL. Did you even watch the falcons games when he was playing? If he didn't have his #1 option open - he was running. Everytime. That's what changed in Philly. He did become a pocket passer. I'm an eagles season ticket holder and I watched them play the falcons when Vick was there everytime, I was at every game Vick has played for the eagles. He's terribly inaccurate and showed that at the end of the season.... right. Maybe that has to do with playing through injuries and limping around for the last 3 weeks of the season - playing through a quad contusion he suffers on the first play of the game at Minnesota.
And what are you talking about I'm wrong again? You conveniently leave out 2007 -
2007 Green Bay Packers 13 13 53 920 17.4 82T 12
2007 San Diego Chargers 16 16 41 623 15.2 45 3
What do you know, more yards, receptions, NINE more touchdowns in three less games played. Yeah, statistically VJax is better. I feel like I'm arguing with a five year old.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Glad my question sparked some interest. Had something to read before I head off to class. ^^
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On January 19 2011 03:28 Shindou wrote:
Yeah, my opinion is thrown out the window. Vick is totally the same QB he always was in ATL. Did you even watch the falcons games when he was playing? If he didn't have his #1 option open - he was running. Everytime. That's what changed in Philly. He did become a pocket passer. I'm an eagles season ticket holder and I watched them play the falcons when Vick was there everytime, I was at every game Vick has played for the eagles. He's terribly inaccurate and showed that at the end of the season.... right. Maybe that has to do with playing through injuries and limping around for the last 3 weeks of the season - playing through a quad contusion he suffers on the first play of the game at Minnesota.
And what are you talking about I'm wrong again? You conveniently leave out 2007 -
2007 Green Bay Packers 13 13 53 920 17.4 82T 12
2007 San Diego Chargers 16 16 41 623 15.2 45 3
What do you know, more yards, receptions, NINE more touchdowns in three less games played. Yeah, statistically VJax is better. I feel like I'm arguing with a five year old.
Because everyone knows that 2008 was Jackson's break out year. He emerged as a top threat in 2008, and continued on in 2009. When talking about Roddy white, why not talk about his '05 and '06 seasons too? When talking about Reggie Wayne, how about we consider his '01 and '02 seasons when people were talking about him being a bust? Some WR's take longer to "mature" as players than others do, that's all that was with VJax. You can't compare those seasons, and you can't compare the 2010 season because VJax missed the vast majority of it.
Vick's passing percentage was largely increased due to the amount of screens the Eagles run (since you're there all the time, you should know they run a lot of screens, probably more than any team in the NFL), and short passes to DJax, Maclin, and McCoy. What Vick struggled with this year was his medium range accuracy. He still showed many of the same tendencies that he showed in ATL too, chucking the ball long, while throwing off his back foot, into coverage.
Also, work on your reading comprehension skills a bit, please. I'll bold key words for you, since you have a hard time with them.
"Vick is still largely the same QB that he was in ATL, and he's proven that over the last few weeks."
"He showed SOME improvement (Note: some means not a lot, or a small amount) from his days in Atlanta, but his stats were likely due to an incredible amount of speed and talent around him (Note: DJack, Maclin, McCoy, Celek), more so than him being an amazing passer.
Then there was this really important part in talking about his game:
"He still makes wildly inaccurate throws, shows poor decision making (Note: throws into a lot of coverage, similar to the way Jay Cutler does), can't read a defense presnap (as evidenced by the fact that the exact same blitz works against him all game long) (Note: If he could, the same slot CB blitz wouldn't have blasted him every time. He would have called out the proper adjustments. Do you think any of the QB's we've mentioned would have allowed that to happen time, after time, after time...? Unlikely.), and can't complete medium distance throws (Note: It's still his absolute weakest point. When teams played two deep against him, and left medium routes available, his accuracy plummeted. Think about what the teams that beat him did. All of the things I just talked about, granted, the Giants fucked up twice, but they held him down for some time doing these things.. i.e. forcing mid-range passes, and blitzing him with identical blitzes all game long. The commentators were often calling out the CB blitz before it happened, and he was blind to it)."
I'm not saying he hasn't improved at all; he has improved. What I'm saying is that he has a long, LONG way to go before he can be mentioned, as a pocket passer, in the same breath as Rodgers, Rivers, etc.
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Austin10833 Posts
On January 19 2011 03:47 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 03:28 Shindou wrote:
Yeah, my opinion is thrown out the window. Vick is totally the same QB he always was in ATL. Did you even watch the falcons games when he was playing? If he didn't have his #1 option open - he was running. Everytime. That's what changed in Philly. He did become a pocket passer. I'm an eagles season ticket holder and I watched them play the falcons when Vick was there everytime, I was at every game Vick has played for the eagles. He's terribly inaccurate and showed that at the end of the season.... right. Maybe that has to do with playing through injuries and limping around for the last 3 weeks of the season - playing through a quad contusion he suffers on the first play of the game at Minnesota.
And what are you talking about I'm wrong again? You conveniently leave out 2007 -
2007 Green Bay Packers 13 13 53 920 17.4 82T 12
2007 San Diego Chargers 16 16 41 623 15.2 45 3
What do you know, more yards, receptions, NINE more touchdowns in three less games played. Yeah, statistically VJax is better. I feel like I'm arguing with a five year old. Because everyone knows that 2008 was Jackson's break out year. He emerged as a top threat in 2008, and continued on in 2009. When talking about Roddy white, why not talk about his '05 and '06 seasons too? When talking about Reggie Wayne, how about we consider his '01 and '02 seasons when people were talking about him being a bust? Some WR's take longer to "mature" as players than others do, that's all that was with VJax. You can't compare those seasons, and you can't compare the 2010 season because VJax missed the vast majority of it.
IMO, it's not really fair to just pick VJax's two best seasons and then compare them to Jennings. Comparing year-to-year stats directly is kind of arbitrary. You should be comparing their best seasons.
VJax does have some things that Jennings doesn't have, like 6 more inches and that he's far better suited to fight for jump balls and deep balls, yet somehow VJax has never had a double-digit TD season, and Jennings has had two. They're both top-tier guys with different skill sets, I don't know if there's really a good way to compare them.
Also, shindou, you don't need to be a dick to make a point.
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On January 19 2011 03:57 BroOd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 03:47 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On January 19 2011 03:28 Shindou wrote:
Yeah, my opinion is thrown out the window. Vick is totally the same QB he always was in ATL. Did you even watch the falcons games when he was playing? If he didn't have his #1 option open - he was running. Everytime. That's what changed in Philly. He did become a pocket passer. I'm an eagles season ticket holder and I watched them play the falcons when Vick was there everytime, I was at every game Vick has played for the eagles. He's terribly inaccurate and showed that at the end of the season.... right. Maybe that has to do with playing through injuries and limping around for the last 3 weeks of the season - playing through a quad contusion he suffers on the first play of the game at Minnesota.
And what are you talking about I'm wrong again? You conveniently leave out 2007 -
2007 Green Bay Packers 13 13 53 920 17.4 82T 12
2007 San Diego Chargers 16 16 41 623 15.2 45 3
What do you know, more yards, receptions, NINE more touchdowns in three less games played. Yeah, statistically VJax is better. I feel like I'm arguing with a five year old. Because everyone knows that 2008 was Jackson's break out year. He emerged as a top threat in 2008, and continued on in 2009. When talking about Roddy white, why not talk about his '05 and '06 seasons too? When talking about Reggie Wayne, how about we consider his '01 and '02 seasons when people were talking about him being a bust? Some WR's take longer to "mature" as players than others do, that's all that was with VJax. You can't compare those seasons, and you can't compare the 2010 season because VJax missed the vast majority of it. IMO, it's not really fair to just pick VJax's two best seasons and then compare them to Jennings. Comparing year-to-year stats directly is kind of arbitrary. You should be comparing their best seasons. VJax does have some things that Jennings doesn't have, like 6 more inches and that he's far better suited to fight for jump balls and deep balls, yet somehow VJax has never had a double-digit TD season, and Jennings has had two. They're both top-tier guys with different skill sets, I don't know if there's really a good way to compare them. Also, shindou, you don't need to be a dick to make a point.
Yeah, valid point on comparing top seasons. The point I was really driving at is that I like VJax's physical talents/abilities over Jennings, and those physical talents give him more potential to be better, and make him better. I think that VJax has the physical skill set to be a top 3-5 WR, whereas I think Jennings has tapped out his potential, and he's not a top 3-5 WR.
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Austin10833 Posts
On January 19 2011 04:23 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 03:57 BroOd wrote:On January 19 2011 03:47 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On January 19 2011 03:28 Shindou wrote:
Yeah, my opinion is thrown out the window. Vick is totally the same QB he always was in ATL. Did you even watch the falcons games when he was playing? If he didn't have his #1 option open - he was running. Everytime. That's what changed in Philly. He did become a pocket passer. I'm an eagles season ticket holder and I watched them play the falcons when Vick was there everytime, I was at every game Vick has played for the eagles. He's terribly inaccurate and showed that at the end of the season.... right. Maybe that has to do with playing through injuries and limping around for the last 3 weeks of the season - playing through a quad contusion he suffers on the first play of the game at Minnesota.
And what are you talking about I'm wrong again? You conveniently leave out 2007 -
2007 Green Bay Packers 13 13 53 920 17.4 82T 12
2007 San Diego Chargers 16 16 41 623 15.2 45 3
What do you know, more yards, receptions, NINE more touchdowns in three less games played. Yeah, statistically VJax is better. I feel like I'm arguing with a five year old. Because everyone knows that 2008 was Jackson's break out year. He emerged as a top threat in 2008, and continued on in 2009. When talking about Roddy white, why not talk about his '05 and '06 seasons too? When talking about Reggie Wayne, how about we consider his '01 and '02 seasons when people were talking about him being a bust? Some WR's take longer to "mature" as players than others do, that's all that was with VJax. You can't compare those seasons, and you can't compare the 2010 season because VJax missed the vast majority of it. IMO, it's not really fair to just pick VJax's two best seasons and then compare them to Jennings. Comparing year-to-year stats directly is kind of arbitrary. You should be comparing their best seasons. VJax does have some things that Jennings doesn't have, like 6 more inches and that he's far better suited to fight for jump balls and deep balls, yet somehow VJax has never had a double-digit TD season, and Jennings has had two. They're both top-tier guys with different skill sets, I don't know if there's really a good way to compare them. Also, shindou, you don't need to be a dick to make a point. Yeah, valid point on comparing top seasons. The point I was really driving at is that I like VJax's physical talents/abilities over Jennings, and those physical talents give him more potential to be better, and make him better. I think that VJax has the physical skill set to be a top 3-5 WR, whereas I think Jennings has tapped out his potential, and he's not a top 3-5 WR.
I think he made a case this season that he is in that class of player. He finished 4th in yardage and tied for 2nd in TD's. I know stats don't tell the whole tale, but it's hard to ignore those numbers.
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On January 19 2011 04:43 BroOd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 04:23 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On January 19 2011 03:57 BroOd wrote:On January 19 2011 03:47 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On January 19 2011 03:28 Shindou wrote:
Yeah, my opinion is thrown out the window. Vick is totally the same QB he always was in ATL. Did you even watch the falcons games when he was playing? If he didn't have his #1 option open - he was running. Everytime. That's what changed in Philly. He did become a pocket passer. I'm an eagles season ticket holder and I watched them play the falcons when Vick was there everytime, I was at every game Vick has played for the eagles. He's terribly inaccurate and showed that at the end of the season.... right. Maybe that has to do with playing through injuries and limping around for the last 3 weeks of the season - playing through a quad contusion he suffers on the first play of the game at Minnesota.
And what are you talking about I'm wrong again? You conveniently leave out 2007 -
2007 Green Bay Packers 13 13 53 920 17.4 82T 12
2007 San Diego Chargers 16 16 41 623 15.2 45 3
What do you know, more yards, receptions, NINE more touchdowns in three less games played. Yeah, statistically VJax is better. I feel like I'm arguing with a five year old. Because everyone knows that 2008 was Jackson's break out year. He emerged as a top threat in 2008, and continued on in 2009. When talking about Roddy white, why not talk about his '05 and '06 seasons too? When talking about Reggie Wayne, how about we consider his '01 and '02 seasons when people were talking about him being a bust? Some WR's take longer to "mature" as players than others do, that's all that was with VJax. You can't compare those seasons, and you can't compare the 2010 season because VJax missed the vast majority of it. IMO, it's not really fair to just pick VJax's two best seasons and then compare them to Jennings. Comparing year-to-year stats directly is kind of arbitrary. You should be comparing their best seasons. VJax does have some things that Jennings doesn't have, like 6 more inches and that he's far better suited to fight for jump balls and deep balls, yet somehow VJax has never had a double-digit TD season, and Jennings has had two. They're both top-tier guys with different skill sets, I don't know if there's really a good way to compare them. Also, shindou, you don't need to be a dick to make a point. Yeah, valid point on comparing top seasons. The point I was really driving at is that I like VJax's physical talents/abilities over Jennings, and those physical talents give him more potential to be better, and make him better. I think that VJax has the physical skill set to be a top 3-5 WR, whereas I think Jennings has tapped out his potential, and he's not a top 3-5 WR. I think he made a case this season that he is in that class of player. He finished 4th in yardage and tied for 2nd in TD's. I know stats don't tell the whole tale, but it's hard to ignore those numbers.
Yeah, I guess it just comes down to personal opinion at that point. But there are easily five guys I would take over Jennings. AJ (obviously), Marshall, Megatron, Fitz (down year for him, but amazing considering who was throwing to him this year), White. I can't really see many arguments that aren't purely statistical that would put Jennings ahead of any of those guys. I guess he's a fringe top 5 player... and, I suppose, a large part of my disliking him has to do with the team he plays for, and my bias against that team. I still think I'd take VJax over him, but I'd absolutely be concerned about his attitude.
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I read what you said. Largely same QB. LONG way to go. SOME improvement, but you're wrong. Even every NFL analyst has said Vick has become a solid pocket passer, a hundred times better than what he was in Atlanta. The majority of vicks passes haven't been screens... I have no idea where you got that from. They're a west coast offense with a lot of short throws, some quick screens, and big plays mixed in. If Vick does dump the ball out in the flat or to mccoy on a RB option its bc nobody's downfield.
The eagles offensive line is horrible. It has nothing to do with him not being able to read coverage or blitz packages. I know you're talking about the Vikings game where Winfield came off a corner blitz a few times, but some of that falls on the offensive line and Celek. Celek botching it on a pass route and one time he just didn't get outside in enough time. There would be two o-linemen attempting to block Allen while the Winfield went around, even though Allen was running through double teams. Vick might have missed the db blitz the first time it came - but it largely falls on the o-line and Celek really isn't a blocking TE to begin with. That game he did play bad compared to the rest of the year - threw some bad balls and had a pick i think he fumbled too but he played the entire game with a quad contusion throwing for 250+ and running for something like 80 yds. It's really amazing he did that well.
Saying he's making bad decisions and all this stuff ala Cutler and really doesn't know how to read this or that and yadda yadda - you really have no basis for it. He threw six picks in 12 games, on pace to throw eight the entire year. His pass % went up something like 6-9% and still ran for a ton. Brought the eagles to 2 missed field goals from a divisional playoff shot (not to mention celek's missed 2pter) and still had them in the game at the end.
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Sourcing analysts is a bad idea because most of them have no idea what they're talking about. I think if you sourced, for instance, Jaws and explained what Jaws said, you'd look better than how you just looked. Just an FYI 
Also, Vick has historically had decent Games/Int numbers.
Edit:
You also didn't really touch on SL's analysis: we know he can make a bunch of easy dump-off passes (although his lack of touch burns him sometimes, like in that last game), we know he has the arm to just heave it (even if his accuracy blows). He's always had that ability, that's why Alge Crumpler was a Pro-Bowler when Vick was a Falcon. He's still got mid-range issues and he's shown little to no growth in that aspect, which still leaves him as slightly better than when he was a Falcon and his success ends up being more a testament to Andy Reid/the way that offense is set up/Jackson, or something like.
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Who do you want me to list? Jaws on MNF vs Redskins Collinsworth before SNF vs Minn, Golic on Mike n Mike... He's had good games to int numbers but he never had a season where his TD/INT was this good. He threw what 20 or 21 this year on 6 ints? I think he threw 20 one other time and had 10+ ints that year too.
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On January 19 2011 02:50 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 02:47 Qatol wrote:On January 19 2011 02:31 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On January 19 2011 02:25 Qatol wrote:On January 19 2011 02:19 FireBearHero wrote:On January 18 2011 10:12 DannyJ wrote:
I watched the NFL replay of the week 1 Eagles vs Packers the other day.
Jermichael Finely is perhaps the most beastly man I've ever seen. The fact that the packers kept their offense rolling almost better than it's ever been when Finley and Grant went down really is impressive.
The Packers have done an impressive job overcoming injuries all year really, more so on defense than offense (though the loss of grant and finley did really hurt). Packers have 15 players on IR right now compared to a combined 13 of the other 3 remaining teams combined (according to NFL.com rosters at least). How many of those are teams putting a rookie on IR so they don't take up a roster spot but another team can't grab them? I know Chicago did that with Harvey Unga this year. I assume other teams are doing it as well? Straight up numbers of players on IR doesn't always tell the full story. You can't do that. Once they're medically cleared to play, they come off of IR, making them a free agent. See: Shawn Merriman. If a player is on IR, he has been declared physically incapable of playing that season. The PUP list is a short term IR. Hmm that surprises me because every year I see low tier/ inexperienced players go to IR with seemingly minor injuries and they are done for the season. (See Unga this year or Melton last year.) I just assumed that the team was stashing them for the next season while saving a roster spot. Maybe they just aren't big names, so their injuries aren't talked about very much. Seemingly minor are sometimes major though. Urlacher had a wrist problem that set him out an entire season. It just so happens that, had they waited another 1.5 hours to set his wrist, he would have lost mobility in his hand, probably permanently. So, things aren't always as they seem.
Wrist injuries are almost never minor. There are too many little bones and the wrists don't heal quickly.
Regardless, this is what I was referring to. In Unga's case, the injury might have been serious (but it wasn't clear). In Melton's case, it was definitely a minor injury though.
On January 19 2011 02:56 turamn wrote:
Reports coming out that the Cowboys are "open to trading" Dez Bryant. I cant believe theres any legitimacy to these reports. Is he really that big of a diva? Thoughts?
From what I understand, they want a top 15 pick for him. So all they're saying is that he isn't one of those players which a team would never trade (someone like Peyton Manning).
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Yeah, you don't know what the hell you're talking about if you think the Eagles weren't calling an absurdly high amount of screens this year, and that Vick wasn't checking down to his back half the other snaps (a lot of those are designed too—philly backs always catch a lot)
Southlight is spot on. Vick's midrange accuracy blows. His deep ball is only saved by his ability to just heave it. He still releases off his back foot. He can't read shit. The two main differences between now and any of his Atlanta seasons are that he now is better ( but not good) at decision making, finally realizing that waiting that extra second for a pass is a lot better than a scramble, and that Andy Reid is lightyears better than any coordinator Vick has had in the past.
Reid called perfect games for Vick all year, calling shit he's good at and stayed away from the stuff he's not. Reeves tried to force Vick to be a statue in the pocket. Mora let him pretend in was a school yard. Vick is not capable of the first, and the later gets shut down once coordinators gameplan and realize that he's running a very limited playbook.
Also, the Jennings/Jax thing is an odd comparison, because they're not even close to the same WR. Jax is physical with the ball like TO and got ups like Moss, but Jennings has insane speed, moves, hands and route running. Flip flop their teams and they'd produce similar results.
However, when football debates are in doubt, just remember that SL thought that Troy Smith was NFL talent, and mark down a victory under your name.
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Eagles are a west coast style offense, those plays aren't designed check downs at all. They call more screens than most teams but definitely not the most in the entire league. Really what do you want to look at to evaluate his mid-range pass game this season other than "Vick can't do it" "Yes he can" ? He averaged .2 yds less than rodgers. .2 more than brady. But that's prob inflated from deep balls. I was literally at every game, but apparently everyone who might have watched a handful of nationally televised games can tell me more than I know about it.
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EPT
