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On June 23 2010 05:27 Ordained wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 04:57 ghen wrote: Oh man I Loooove killing Tibbers.
I think I might have a problem.
Is this an addiction or will this fascination pass? I love it when someone trys to focus down tibbers, they arent attacking me then.
Well its really only when annie is out of reach by a turret and tibbers is merrily romping along at the grass line. /attack!
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On June 22 2010 23:15 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2010 13:46 redtooth wrote:On June 22 2010 11:24 gtrsrs wrote:On June 22 2010 04:45 redtooth wrote:On June 22 2010 04:28 gtrsrs wrote: akali is a great assassin with a bit of practice my bro plays akali and he rushes rylai's crystal scepter so he can constantly slow them don't spam your ult, try to catch them without it, only use it if they're getting away too fast for you
he consistently goes 11/0/5+ in level 30 games so she CAN be used in high levels, she just needs some support (i generally play shen to back her up) akali is bad, sorry. there's really very little redeeming feature about her. she can't ult to run away, her stealth dies to AoE, burst is ok but beat by many other heroes, relies on energy and ult stacks, squishy, terrible laner, subpar jungler, etc etc. also, saying someone goes "___/___/__ with ____ hero vs lvl 30s" means absolutely nothing. actually, being lvl 30 means absolutely nothing. On June 18 2010 06:47 Southlight wrote: Be nervous if they're high level - you can't tell them apart then. i would put money on him changing your opinion on her unless he's in top 50 EU elo, bet you he won't. i've seen HS play akali and even that was underwhelming. On June 22 2010 12:48 deth2munkies wrote: AP Kat is much better at ganking. Early, you can Shunpo from the brush and usually make it back with maybe an auto attack as long as they aren't carrying a stunner. Rylai's is amazing, as is Haunting Guise and I've also been experimenting with Gunblade and have been having favorable results. Shunpo + Gunblade + Ult = shit tons of damage that they won't get away from. gunblade is a terrible item (too expensive) on anyone but especially with kat. if you go AP you don't need too much to do damage. the hybrid aspect of gunblade is wasted on her too. my build only has haunting+rylais to boost AP, the rest being survival items. i don't really understand what you meant by the bolded part since both AP/AD have the same early game. also, if you wanna follow Bree's build then you should skip haunting guise. after the removal of leech it's not worth getting on an AD build IMO. you only really need 30ish mPen anyways under most cases. when i go AD i just stack BF swords and giants belts (3BF/2GB), turning them into BTs and sunfires over time. you should really learn to play both styles and learn the ins and outs of each. i usually try to play AP whenever possible but go AD if we're running against a super-heal comp or don't have a good initiator. actually the spell vamp is still on haunting guise even if it doesnt say it  i believe riot is aware though. wtfzorz? i just got placebo'd (misuse of word yes) into trying new builds. if the leech is still there then AD should always get it. guise leech on KI+BB every wave would be ridiculous.
On June 23 2010 04:04 Southlight wrote: Honestly, AP and AD build almost identically at the beginning. Regardless of which build I go I always level up Shunpo a lot and lag behind on BB, because BB pushes creep. And either way I open Sorc Boots and Guise (Brees said he doesn't like Guise, I like it because it gives magic pen and HP).
After that you start seeing the divide, as the AP build goes straight for Rylai while the AD build goes straight for Bloodthirster. Then and only then do you see the difference in survivability and combat focus. sorry but i disagree wholeheartedly. you should always max BB first no matter which build you're going to deviate into. you're going to be using BB more than shunpo. unless your opponent's combo is on CD, you usually don't want to do a full combo (shunpo+BB+autoattack). you just want to abuse the bouncing aspect of BB and cast it when there's few enough creeps that it would hit the other hero too. it also stops you from pushing too hard (you shouldn't just spam it at the first sight of every wave).
gah it's hard to explain in words. but you want to level BB due to the increasing number of bounces so that you can harass better. but if there is a jungler you shouldn't level your first skill until you engage (shunpo) or go back to lane (BB). playing kat well is harder then people give credit for .
On June 23 2010 04:49 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 04:44 shawster wrote: ring >> sapphire in high level play it seems
basically you really want that 100 hp advantage at level 1, it's so integral to your success. you go to mid with vamp scept twitch vs doran shield twitch or ring vs sapphire annie and you'll see a big difference. however, sapphire crystal does build into catalyst easily so thats your call.
you want to go roa/banshees merc treads/sorc boots and ap item of your choice. i don't like mejai on annie, since her nukes already hit hard and she needs hp/mana. haha, no no no no, high level games never ever involve twitch at mid. he gets absolutely demolished by everyone decent mid. I remember the last time I saw a twitch mid and suffice to say that game did not go well for him :p. i've seen hotshot dominate mid with twitch. he was against satashi's annie (his only good character) too so it wasn't just a random scrub. i honestly think twitch is like a hidden corki: ridiculously good but extremely hard to play correctly.
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On June 23 2010 04:44 shawster wrote: ring >> sapphire in high level play it seems
basically you really want that 100 hp advantage at level 1, it's so integral to your success. you go to mid with vamp scept twitch vs doran shield twitch or ring vs sapphire annie and you'll see a big difference. however, sapphire crystal does build into catalyst easily so thats your call.
you want to go roa/banshees merc treads/sorc boots and ap item of your choice. i don't like mejai on annie, since her nukes already hit hard and she needs hp/mana. On the contrary i find cutting the corners on HP survival and going for maximum damage better on annie, my only hp item on her the majority of the time is rylais or a giant belt. The thing about sapphire crystal is some matchups, you're just screwed. (a lot of them actually) For example, an ashe that saved her crit+ took volley. Generally, you want to be behind the mage creeps avoiding her volley, and personally when she comes up to me to crit with her 100% chance, i blow my Q, blow my ignite, and start autoattacking. ( the creeps will attack her more than they will you because she aggro'd into your line.) you will NOT win if you dont have the bonus HP from dorans- and any ashe will know that so they'll back off. If they keep attacking you, you're pretty much forced to back off, and concede zone control
similarly with kat, other annies, pantheon from level 1-3 with his spear shot , etc. its very common to receive soo much aggro in midlane from my experience.
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On June 22 2010 17:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Sorry about the late responses, I posted this morning and it's already like 6 pages ahead: Show nested quote +On June 21 2010 23:55 Mogwai wrote: Pantheon wins vs. Ryze mostly via attrition. Spear shot is busted as hell for the first 3 levels, you just zone them off of creeps or force them to trade harass with your 83 damage nuke that costs 30 mana and has a 4 second CD (which always leads to a mana advantage for Pantheon if nothing else).
EDIT: damn, that fucker plays too much, especially with shitty characters, lol. Yeah, I understand that there are characters that zone you out early, especially with Ryze's terrible movespeed, but once you level the bounce shot high enough you should be able to safely farm waves regardless of zoning. Generally, with any character, I try to stay as far away from Pantheon as I can and retreat to tower range if I'm getting jumped. His burst rapes pretty much everyone. sorry but this is a contradiction. if you're farming with bouncing shot then you're going to push which then leads to even more zoning. ryze has low range, low movespeed, no regen, crappy cc, and mediocre early game burst so he's going to absolutely die during laning.
Show nested quote +On June 21 2010 23:58 Southlight wrote: My point is, a competent player will simply stand off of the creep, thus, targeting the player with bounce shot will simply turn it into a single-target single-hit nuke. At this point, coupled with his lack of range, the Trists and Ashes (ranged DPS) of the world will pummel Ryze, as they outrange him and have far more sustained damage output if Ryze were to actually try to close the gap and cast his two single-target single-hit nukes. I know, but you just stay on the opposite side of the creeps from them and they can't harass you without getting in range of your bounce shot or between your creeps/tower. I know you know that you move from the middle of the lane if this happens. Show nested quote +Other dedicated solo mid nukers (Pantheon, Kat, Karthus, Anivia, Annie, etc.) have much stronger, more repeatable (attrition) combos and/or superior range or burst, particularly until level 6 (where Ryze finally begins to shine). "Well you just have to wait until level 6" you might say. A couple days ago I was playing Ashe vs Ashe, where the other Ashe opened Doran's Blade and I opened Fortitude. Suffice it to say I was level 6 when he was level 4. "Waiting until level 6" when you're outmatched solo is rarely going to end well. I think it's relatively easy to farm with Ryze assuming you just pour everything into bounce. You don't even really have to be anywhere close to danger to hit a creep at the halfway point of the mid lane with his bounce shot. once again, you use bouncing, you push, you get zoned, you lose exp, you lose lane. any ranged DPS would destroy you with equal movespeed since they can just hit and run. there is no hero in the game other then ezreal and maaaaaybe annie (unlikely actually) who can just "sit back and farm" during laning. if the other person want's an engagement, they're going to get it. and when it happens ryze is dead.
Show nested quote +"But you can break combos with prison" you bring up. That's fine and dandy except prison doesn't actually break combos. It's an entangle, not a stun, so casting prison on Pantheon/Kat does jack-all for you, except to cause you to stand in place in their channeled spell for another second. My post addressed the hardships of dealing with Kat/Pantheon the sentence immediately after I said they'd put a point in prison to prevent combos. I know Pantheon/Kat is hard, but it's hard for pretty much everyone. Against a good amount of characters that typically solo mid, Ryze can easily hold his own. Against Pantheon it's hard before level 6 (well, hard in general) and against Kat it's hard after level 6. It doesn't mean it's impossible. kat's strength isn't after level 6... it's the constant damage she's doing to you without expending mana. also a point in prison isn't going to do anything vs a kat anyways (did you forget shunpo?). vs panth you're literally going to have a 2 level and 20 cs disadvantage. the more you try to farm with bouncing the more you're going to push and get zoned. but even beyond panth's imba laning anybody with heal/shield is going to destroy you, any decent ranged dps is going to destroy you, most other casters at mid are going to destroy you, etc etc.
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haha, no no no no, high level games never ever involve twitch at mid. he gets absolutely demolished by everyone decent mid. I remember the last time I saw a twitch mid and suffice to say that game did not go well for him :p.
The #1 guy on EU ELO is a twitch player, like ~400 wins and ~230 with twitch, so i dunno . But then again it's EU.
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On June 23 2010 06:26 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 04:44 shawster wrote: ring >> sapphire in high level play it seems
basically you really want that 100 hp advantage at level 1, it's so integral to your success. you go to mid with vamp scept twitch vs doran shield twitch or ring vs sapphire annie and you'll see a big difference. however, sapphire crystal does build into catalyst easily so thats your call.
you want to go roa/banshees merc treads/sorc boots and ap item of your choice. i don't like mejai on annie, since her nukes already hit hard and she needs hp/mana. On the contrary i find cutting the corners on HP survival and going for maximum damage better on annie, my only hp item on her the majority of the time is rylais or a giant belt. The thing about sapphire crystal is some matchups, you're just screwed. (a lot of them actually) For example, an ashe that saved her crit+ took volley. Generally, you want to be behind the mage creeps avoiding her volley, and personally when she comes up to me to crit with her 100% chance, i blow my Q, blow my ignite, and start autoattacking. ( the creeps will attack her more than they will you because she aggro'd into your line.) you will NOT win if you dont have the bonus HP from dorans- and any ashe will know that so they'll back off. If they keep attacking you, you're pretty much forced to back off, and concede zone control similarly with kat, other annies, pantheon from level 1-3 with his spear shot , etc. its very common to receive soo much aggro in midlane from my experience.
What do you reccomend as a [standard] build order for annie going mid/ganking a bit?
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maybe I'm missing something... twitch seems to have bad range, bad cc, bad burst early... how will he do anything vs. a competent mid? I understand his utility on sidelanes, especially because he can just disappear and you have no idea where he's going until you get wards, but at solo mid, uhg, I just can't imagine him being able to do anything other than cloak and hide and hope that getting pathetic cs in return for keeping up on levels is sufficient to stay relevant in the game.
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I've played twitch like two weeks ago and i had great success being very aggressive, with a full def mastery, people really underestimate his expunge while taking him on 1vs1. The biggest problem is the stupid Cleanse which everybody has at high ELO. The range is really problematic but if the other guy is giving you a hard time you can mostly just creep and get free shots off with your stealth abuse.
Don't take anything i say too seriously i have like 28-22 with twitch, some games were great some were bad. But IMO twitch can be mid no problem, spread poison win by creep killing or try to annoy, stealth is your friend.
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If I were Twitch vs Annie I'd just let Annie push (or hide when the creep pushes the other way) and farm every creep that comes to tower or overextends, and then whenever Annie tries to gank just shadow her.
On June 23 2010 06:45 Andr3 wrote: I've played twitch like two weeks ago and i had great success being very aggressive, with a full def mastery, people really underestimate his expunge while taking him on 1vs1. The biggest problem is the stupid Cleanse which everybody has at high ELO. The range is really problematic but if the other guy is giving you a hard time you can mostly just creep and get free shots off with your stealth abuse.
Don't take anything i say too seriously i have like 28-22 with twitch, some games were great some were bad. But IMO twitch can be mid no problem, spread poison win by creep killing or try to annoy, stealth is your friend.
As with the discussion on Ryze; if a competent player with superior lane control wants an engagement, he's going to get it, unless you sit in hide forever (and which point you're vulnerable for cooldown duration anyways). And if it's a ranged DPS hide isn't going to help because you still have distance from where you're standing to the nearest grass (or 10 seconds) before you because invisible. Harassing with hide is stupid because the whole point is that you're gonna die if you get in range - Twitch's early game burst damage is inferior to pretty much every hero 1v1.
Edit: I guess the source of my annoyance is, saying [ ] is a good mid because I can kill people! is a terrible argument. I can kill people with Mordekaiser mid, too. You know why? It's because they suck. When you end up matched against a hero with superior mobility and/or burst and/or range and/or survivability what do you do? The majority of heroes that solo mid have options, and are notoriously difficult to "zone" because they pack a lot of punch. With Ryze (and now Twitch) I'm not getting anything beyond "oh but you can farm if you're being beaten" which is super contradictory, and then a "but if you're good you can kill them." Which is like, uh huh. Do you mean you're good, or they're terrible.
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On June 23 2010 04:04 Southlight wrote: Honestly, AP and AD build almost identically at the beginning. Regardless of which build I go I always level up Shunpo a lot and lag behind on BB, because BB pushes creep. And either way I open Sorc Boots and Guise (Brees said he doesn't like Guise, I like it because it gives magic pen and HP).
After that you start seeing the divide, as the AP build goes straight for Rylai while the AD build goes straight for Bloodthirster. Then and only then do you see the difference in survivability and combat focus.
I prefer Bloodthirster, as I prefer to farm quickly and I prefer to have a stronger ranged harass. BB is also a very strong teamfight skill as you'll almost always have your ult jacked up, so you at least this way you get a pretty imbahax quick RC AoE damage skill, on top of the massive farm aid it gives. However it means you're foregoing a snare effect on your skills, and you're down like 500 HP.
Saying ___ is better because I ended up getting ____ better record or ___ is better because ____ used it well is bull. People will prefer different builds because they're more comfortable with it. The fact that this is a constant question means Riot has done a good job balancing it, and it means the most important thing to remember when reading people discussing these things is that if they 100% advocate one over the other they're talking out of their ass. Wow.. I never said that AP was better because I got a better record. I said that I found myself improving when I switched to AP. It was meant purely as an encouragement to try out both since I had blindly gone AD for a long time but I found out that AP was pretty damn good as well. I agree fully that both AD and AP are good, but I even said that the style with AP is different. What I meant by that was that the style of AP fits my style better than how you play AD.
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Ah, it sounded like you were heavily implying AP >>>> AD, sorry.
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My standard BO with Annie is
Start with Q, then R>W>Q>E
Sapphire Crystal + 2 H Pots Boots Catalyst Rod of Ages Merc Treads or Sorc Boots, once in blue moon I get ninja tabi
from there it varies between Rylai's, Void Staff, Zhonyas for me. If games goes longer you can either continue to AP stack if the game is extremely in your favor, or give yourself some survivability in order to get another burst in during team fights.
<3 Annie, this is pretty much the only way I build her.
I've been playing Hybrid Kayle and doing well but really have trouble in early laning phase especially depending on my laning partner... any tips/builds you guys have that works?
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The problem with twitch middle is if he leaves to go gank then the middle tower is probably dead. I think twitch lanes best with someone that's a failure strong 2v1 so he can go gank as he pleases
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do boots stack with more boots?
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No sir they do not. It's a good laugh when somebody accidentally buys two boots.
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On June 23 2010 06:31 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2010 17:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Sorry about the late responses, I posted this morning and it's already like 6 pages ahead: On June 21 2010 23:55 Mogwai wrote: Pantheon wins vs. Ryze mostly via attrition. Spear shot is busted as hell for the first 3 levels, you just zone them off of creeps or force them to trade harass with your 83 damage nuke that costs 30 mana and has a 4 second CD (which always leads to a mana advantage for Pantheon if nothing else).
EDIT: damn, that fucker plays too much, especially with shitty characters, lol. Yeah, I understand that there are characters that zone you out early, especially with Ryze's terrible movespeed, but once you level the bounce shot high enough you should be able to safely farm waves regardless of zoning. Generally, with any character, I try to stay as far away from Pantheon as I can and retreat to tower range if I'm getting jumped. His burst rapes pretty much everyone. sorry but this is a contradiction. if you're farming with bouncing shot then you're going to push which then leads to even more zoning. ryze has low range, low movespeed, no regen, crappy cc, and mediocre early game burst so he's going to absolutely die during laning. Show nested quote +On June 21 2010 23:58 Southlight wrote: My point is, a competent player will simply stand off of the creep, thus, targeting the player with bounce shot will simply turn it into a single-target single-hit nuke. At this point, coupled with his lack of range, the Trists and Ashes (ranged DPS) of the world will pummel Ryze, as they outrange him and have far more sustained damage output if Ryze were to actually try to close the gap and cast his two single-target single-hit nukes. I know, but you just stay on the opposite side of the creeps from them and they can't harass you without getting in range of your bounce shot or between your creeps/tower. I know you know that you move from the middle of the lane if this happens. Other dedicated solo mid nukers (Pantheon, Kat, Karthus, Anivia, Annie, etc.) have much stronger, more repeatable (attrition) combos and/or superior range or burst, particularly until level 6 (where Ryze finally begins to shine). "Well you just have to wait until level 6" you might say. A couple days ago I was playing Ashe vs Ashe, where the other Ashe opened Doran's Blade and I opened Fortitude. Suffice it to say I was level 6 when he was level 4. "Waiting until level 6" when you're outmatched solo is rarely going to end well. I think it's relatively easy to farm with Ryze assuming you just pour everything into bounce. You don't even really have to be anywhere close to danger to hit a creep at the halfway point of the mid lane with his bounce shot. once again, you use bouncing, you push, you get zoned, you lose exp, you lose lane. any ranged DPS would destroy you with equal movespeed since they can just hit and run. there is no hero in the game other then ezreal and maaaaaybe annie (unlikely actually) who can just "sit back and farm" during laning. if the other person want's an engagement, they're going to get it. and when it happens ryze is dead. Show nested quote +"But you can break combos with prison" you bring up. That's fine and dandy except prison doesn't actually break combos. It's an entangle, not a stun, so casting prison on Pantheon/Kat does jack-all for you, except to cause you to stand in place in their channeled spell for another second. My post addressed the hardships of dealing with Kat/Pantheon the sentence immediately after I said they'd put a point in prison to prevent combos. I know Pantheon/Kat is hard, but it's hard for pretty much everyone. Against a good amount of characters that typically solo mid, Ryze can easily hold his own. Against Pantheon it's hard before level 6 (well, hard in general) and against Kat it's hard after level 6. It doesn't mean it's impossible. kat's strength isn't after level 6... it's the constant damage she's doing to you without expending mana. also a point in prison isn't going to do anything vs a kat anyways (did you forget shunpo?). vs panth you're literally going to have a 2 level and 20 cs disadvantage. the more you try to farm with bouncing the more you're going to push and get zoned. but even beyond panth's imba laning anybody with heal/shield is going to destroy you, any decent ranged dps is going to destroy you, most other casters at mid are going to destroy you, etc etc. Okay, you're right, it's impossible to beat anyone mid with Ryze, I stand corrected.
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On June 23 2010 07:47 Chrispy wrote: No sir they do not. It's a good laugh when somebody accidentally buys two boots. That's actually the running joke between some friends of mine, when we're up enough in some games we all sell our items and win with two boots.
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streaming now if you wanta watch
livestream.com/phrostsgaming
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On June 23 2010 08:19 Phrost wrote: streaming now if you wanta watch
livestream.com/phrostsgaming Well you weren't streaming for very long lol.
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