|
On July 28 2010 03:16 travis wrote:
it's really simple, if he isn't OP then why is he first to be banned and if not banned he's picked in EVERY RANKED GAME
(i actually can't back that up as i don't have much ranekd experience, and probably not every ranked game... but if u couldn't ban champions im pretty sure heimer would be like top 2 most picked champions for sure..)
god, i can't believe someone would argue he's not OP
the only people who do that either play one of the few champions that are good against him or play as him and love the advantage it gives them and aren't honest
I neither play heimer nor do I main a champion that is especially good against him. I find that he is definitely strong and probably one of the most annoying champions to play against but he isnt unstoppable.
A good heimer is hard to stop, a bad heimer helps you more than anything else (assuming you play against him). Bans are also not indicative of champion strength since shen gets banned almost every game but taric, soraka, and kayle are picked almost every game and are probably atleast doubly as strong as him.
Currently bans have no strategy in soloq because people just ban champions they dont like playing against because they may be hard to stop.
|
On July 28 2010 03:23 myopia wrote:
This may sound like a stupid question, but Sivir is supposed to counter Heimer, right? I've had 3 Sivir v Heimer mids in the last week, and in each case the Heimer has won. I don't play her, what are these Sivirs supposed to be doing? (so I can tell them exactly how they suck/need to improve)
I just max riccochet quickly and auto-attack farm, which accidentally kills turrets, and then I get up to a bf sword which also kills them quickly. *shrugs* I think a lot of people like boomerang blade for killing towers, but I think you lose that mana fight really quickly. spell shield is also boss because of his pretty slow/predictable nukes.
|
On July 28 2010 03:27 Phrost wrote:
Currently bans have no strategy in soloq because people just ban champions they dont like playing against because they may be hard to stop.
I prefer to ban Shaco (map control) and Kayle/Ezreal because of their ridiculous dominance in the right hands. Mostly Kayle.
It's just hard to counterban etc. in solo queue because half the time you don't know what half of your team is going to pick >_>
Edit:
Also, people banning Shen are stupid.
|
I usually play champs that have either: Superb pushing powers, or excellent survival skills, or gank champions so I usually find a roll.
"Well I'm taric... guess I push a lane since well I can explode a creepwave + give everyone extra dmg + heal + stun lets push another tower"
"Well I'm Shaco... lets go gank some people's was only in the lane for a second anyways and we got that tower, back to my job"
Or
"Well I'm Tyrnd, I need farm and my ult + spinslash + ghost +clense = you're not catching and killing me, and if you do well... i might ult and tear you and your friend appart we will see"
Just depends on who you play i guess heh. Also, If you're playing in a 5 man on vent then knowing when there are 4mia's is very easy 
|
On July 28 2010 03:23 myopia wrote:
This may sound like a stupid question, but Sivir is supposed to counter Heimer, right? I've had 3 Sivir v Heimer mids in the last week, and in each case the Heimer has won. I don't play her, what are these Sivirs supposed to be doing? (so I can tell them exactly how they suck/need to improve)
What made you think that?
I dont think it's unreasonable for sivir to hold a lane against Heimer but killing him is probably not on the table. She doesn't do a terrible large amount of damage quickly (which is the bane of heimer) so she can just sit in lane and with good spell shield control block most of his harassment. Spiral blade and bouncing blades can clean up turrets that are too close together but good heimer's will give them a decent spread.
I think the has the advantage early but if the heimer plays conservative until rank4 or 5 turrets he shouldnt die either.
edit: lol her original skill names
|
On July 28 2010 03:14 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 03:09 Phrost wrote:On July 28 2010 03:03 travis wrote:
So does riot actually have plans of ever nerfing heimer? Heimer doesn't need to be nerfed, he's not overpowered. If you dont like playing against him you ban him just like you would any other champion you dont enjoy playing against. you can't be serious every ranked game bans heimer first every unranked game that has a heimer the heimer just totally pushes down whatever lane he is in, unless he's up against one of a select few champions who can fight him your argument is the stupidest thing ive ever read "he's not overpowered because you can ban him". LOL, what?
Riot nerfed that grenade so hes not OP anymore. Now hes just annoying to deal with.
The champ i'm having trouble dealing with atm is a good shaco. How do you shut him down? He roams and ganks and steals jungle, which is pretty vital to me if I play anivia mid.
also, after they "fixed" pantheon HSS turned into a tickle machine, which completely fucked his burst potential. I had 150 games with him 
|
On July 28 2010 03:28 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 03:23 myopia wrote:
This may sound like a stupid question, but Sivir is supposed to counter Heimer, right? I've had 3 Sivir v Heimer mids in the last week, and in each case the Heimer has won. I don't play her, what are these Sivirs supposed to be doing? (so I can tell them exactly how they suck/need to improve) I just max riccochet quickly and auto-attack farm, which accidentally kills turrets, and then I get up to a bf sword which also kills them quickly. *shrugs* I think a lot of people like boomerang blade for killing towers, but I think you lose that mana fight really quickly. spell shield is also boss because of his pretty slow/predictable nukes.
I've only played that match-up a couple times but if I tried to push too hard like that I would get ganked by a jungler and Sivir can't really escape a gank so it's kind of difficult. I guess you can play it out pretty carefully though although I always feel uncomfortable maxing ricochet first since you just push so fast I feel really unsafe.
|
On July 28 2010 03:29 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 03:27 Phrost wrote:
Currently bans have no strategy in soloq because people just ban champions they dont like playing against because they may be hard to stop. I prefer to ban Shaco (map control) and Kayle/Ezreal because of their ridiculous dominance in the right hands. Mostly Kayle. It's just hard to counterban etc. in solo queue because half the time you don't know what half of your team is going to pick >_> Edit: Also, people banning Shen are stupid.
I usually ban amumu and shaco (if he's not already banned) so there arent a ton of exceptionally good late game junglers left to choose. Warwick and Udyr are generally not terribly devastating even if they get a good jungle early game.
|
On July 28 2010 03:27 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 03:21 Southlight wrote:
He's banned because he's boring to play against/with. As I mentioned, I've not seen a team with Heimer win in a long time at higher levels of competition.
The map control goes both ways. If the creep pushes beyond the river you're highly liable to being ganked, therefore you by default get "zoned" just via fear of mid/jungle ganks. At that point you have no real choice but to get on the move (lose time) and then sit down in another lane, at which point you're diluting exp again and aren't even guaranteed to win, say, a 4v3 push. If your team has a hero like Shaco or Singed, one of those sit-in-one-lane-and-rice heroes, the dead tower is a superb advantage rather than a disadvantage, because not only will few people be willing to challenge your free ricing into your territory, you have a lot of ground to "freefarm." Pushing down a tower too early can result in a ridiculous exp disadvantage this way... and now with the tower kill exp crunched I feel like there's definitely reason to not push down a tower that fast.
*shrugs* Those are some really good points and it makes me think, would it sometimes be a good thing to intentionally sac a tower instead of trying to defend it? It should be a profitable play in certain circumstances. It's quite interesting. At times I've had a lot of trouble on my lane but after they got my tower early we got a lot of control back, our mid ganked them twice because they overextended, and in the end we got their tower and were outleveling them after a horrendous start.
I don't know if it's really possible to "sacrifice" a tower, and also bear in mind that map control going both ways means it can also open you/your jungle to gank risks, but it's more food for thought that people might originally give it. There're plenty of games where one team loses a tower and hardly cares, because they just reap the fruits of extra large creep waves to farm.
On July 28 2010 03:32 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 03:29 Southlight wrote:On July 28 2010 03:27 Phrost wrote:
Currently bans have no strategy in soloq because people just ban champions they dont like playing against because they may be hard to stop. I prefer to ban Shaco (map control) and Kayle/Ezreal because of their ridiculous dominance in the right hands. Mostly Kayle. It's just hard to counterban etc. in solo queue because half the time you don't know what half of your team is going to pick >_> Edit: Also, people banning Shen are stupid. I usually ban amumu and shaco (if he's not already banned) so there arent a ton of exceptionally good late game junglers left to choose. Warwick and Udyr are generally not terribly devastating even if they get a good jungle early game.
Good Udyrs are dominating, IMO, and ofc Warwicks can carry ala Inept. It's tough. There's just such a big skill disparity, one of the main reasons why I ban Kayle is because it's very likely for me to run into one of those big name carry players like grandjudge, and them playing Kayle is one of the last things I'm willing to see.
|
heimer automatically pushes too though, that's the reason why you can get away with it in that matchup.
|
On July 28 2010 03:32 Southlight wrote:
Good Udyrs are dominating, IMO, and ofc Warwicks can carry ala Inept. It's tough. There's just such a big skill disparity, one of the main reasons why I ban Kayle is because it's very likely for me to run into one of those big name carry players like grandjudge, and them playing Kayle is one of the last things I'm willing to see.
I play kayle the most so I have no problems kiting warwick and udyr with max CDR from golem and nashor's tooth =]
Amumu's bandage toss and shaco's deceive are obviously much better at catching me.
|
But Deceive has a 10 second cooldown now..........................DOTDOTDOT
|
Shaco's nerf didn't do much btw. He still can do everything he could before. :/ He just jungler a bit slower I guess, and might not escape some ganks he normally would, but it's not a big deal.
I feel like Xin Zhao got almost put into the Jax tier, he got super gimped but actually... he's still the strongest melee DPS after Evelynn.
|
Yeah well fuck Kayle >: |
The reason why I say Udyr is dominating, is because if the player is on top of his game, he's the second-best jungle harasser, to Shaco. If he comes into your jungle to take creep you usually struggle mightily to stop him, and definitely struggle to actually chase him down and kill him. He's very disruptive like that. He'll very quickly and easily get map control that way and shut down your jungler, and yes it includes Amumu (Udyr too strong 1v1).
|
Well not that i ever played sivir vs heimer, but ... all sivi would do is right click heimers turrets and he can do two things
1) grenade you.-> spelshield TY FOR THE MANA
2) autoattack you, but as he is walking up ololol ricochet + boomerang
Sounds pretty annoying. :O
|
On July 28 2010 03:39 Southlight wrote:
Yeah well fuck Kayle >: |
The reason why I say Udyr is dominating, is because if the player is on top of his game, he's the second-best jungle harasser, to Shaco. If he comes into your jungle to take creep you usually struggle mightily to stop him, and definitely struggle to actually chase him down and kill him. He's very disruptive like that. He'll very quickly and easily get map control that way and shut down your jungler, and yes it includes Amumu (Udyr too strong 1v1).
Udyr has always been very strong 1v1, his problem is that he is so easy to slow and kite that the poking "metagame."
I miss OP-dyr when I rode his buffedness to a nearly perfect 18 game winning streak (apparently madred's bloodrazor and malady were too hard to stop)
|
United States37500 Posts
Heimer isn't OP. Kids are blowing this so out of proportion. His pushing ability is probably the best in the game and guess what, it's been nerfed in the past two patches. Heimer turrets do less damage to tower and grenades do less damage after this current patch.
Bans are reflective of what players typically not want to deal with in a game, not as much on what is OP or not. Shen was banned in at least 3 out of 10 games for me but he's far from being OP. People just really dislike their ganks failing due to Shen ulti. Same thing with Heimer. Having 3 turrets down and laying siege against your towers is simply frustration but good team work can get you out of it. Heimer is so susceptible to ganks, your team just needs to have the adequate amount of CC.
Personally speaking, in a 5v5 setting, Heimer is hard-countered by Nunu alone. Then Heimer's only redeeming quality is setting up on Baron. But wards also solve there.
|
On July 28 2010 03:39 Southlight wrote:
Yeah well fuck Kayle >: |
The reason why I say Udyr is dominating, is because if the player is on top of his game, he's the second-best jungle harasser, to Shaco. If he comes into your jungle to take creep you usually struggle mightily to stop him, and definitely struggle to actually chase him down and kill him. He's very disruptive like that. He'll very quickly and easily get map control that way and shut down your jungler, and yes it includes Amumu (Udyr too strong 1v1).
Udyr can also gank very quickly and effortlessly and can do it often on multiple lanes when needed. I think he's the strongest jungler in the game not counting Shaco O_o Amumu's stronger as a champion but Amumu isn't as good with the actual jungling and what he can do with it and so on as Udyr is, imo.
|
I know, but his strength lies in that he'll dismantle your jungler if played well and backed up by a responsive and attentive team. I was just pointing it out when you said banning Amumu = no good junglers, what ends up happening is I see junk like Udyr vs Warwick jungles where the Udyr just stomps all over WW and makes the game look even worse than if one of them was Amumu, lol.
|
On July 28 2010 03:44 Southlight wrote:
I know, but his strength lies in that he'll dismantle your jungler if played well and backed up by a responsive and attentive team. I was just pointing it out when you said banning Amumu = no good junglers, what ends up happening is I see junk like Udyr vs Warwick jungles where the Udyr just stomps all over WW and makes the game look even worse than if one of them was Amumu, lol.
Okay I'll be honest. I don't like Amumu's ult (since my team naturally has an affinity to gravitate toward him when its up) and most of all....
He's too damn sad, i feel bad killing him
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
