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On July 28 2010 03:02 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 03:00 Phrost wrote:On July 28 2010 02:53 Shikyo wrote:On July 28 2010 02:19 Phrost wrote:On July 28 2010 02:04 Shikyo wrote:
Wow I just noticed, but Transfusion has like a 2 second cooldown O_o Are you serious -_- It hits for like nothing, with 300 ap it hits for like 400 Ew they changed the AP ratios? Well that wasn't even the point I was trying to make, Rylai's will be his core item most likely and this way he can perma-slow. But yeah maybe we'll have to wait and see, in theory 35% permaslow is crazy, it's like Ashe chasing =P He's strong, but the lowcooldown on Q is just to heal, not to deal a ton of damage (although if he hits you several times in a row it will hurt) BTW, do you know / remember how much the E damage increases per cast? Is it like 300 -> 450 -> 600 or something lower?
I think it was 50% increase in cost, 25% increase in damage, 8% increase in healing per stack. Maximum of 4 stacks.
The duration of each stack is longer than the cooldown of the spell by about 4-5 seconds (I think, i dont really remember).
With a spirit visage I was able to maintain 4 stacks (read: not spam on CD) without anything attacking me for a fair amount of time. I was running around the jungle on TT and using Q whenever i had something to hit. It's expensive to keep it up and I'm sure I would have less chance to do that in a normal game not against bots (ie getting attacked will kill you too much)
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On July 28 2010 03:03 travis wrote:
So does riot actually have plans of ever nerfing heimer?
Heimer doesn't need to be nerfed, he's not overpowered. If you dont like playing against him you ban him just like you would any other champion you dont enjoy playing against.
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How about whenever Heimer throws a grenade, his turrets self destruct, causing friendly fire. Or if his turrets are alive too long, they become self aware and turn on their oppressive master.
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On the note of Heimer pushes, particularly with regards to killing towers, and this is going to be directed mostly toward the high-level players, but...
A while ago when I was playing with some organized people, I think Koreans? Unfortunately not sure, but, they were actually talking about "tower push too fast" ie. a tower was destroyed or on the verge of being destroyed "too early." I didn't really give it much thought then, but now I'm curious as to what people think about when it's "too early" to push down a tower. Because I can actually totally understand what they mean (push = creep doesn't stop = liable to overpushing, but nowhere else to go...)
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I feel like it would depend on the ganking potential of your team versus that of theirs.
If you have a lot of good gankers, taking a tower early is good. If you're worried about ganks, taking a tower is bad.
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On July 28 2010 03:09 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 03:03 travis wrote:
So does riot actually have plans of ever nerfing heimer? Heimer doesn't need to be nerfed, he's not overpowered. If you dont like playing against him you ban him just like you would any other champion you dont enjoy playing against.
you can't be serious
every ranked game bans heimer first
every unranked game that has a heimer the heimer just totally pushes down whatever lane he is in, unless he's up against one of a select few champions who can fight him
your argument is the stupidest thing ive ever read
"he's not overpowered because you can ban him". LOL, what?
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On July 28 2010 03:11 Southlight wrote:
On the note of Heimer pushes, particularly with regards to killing towers, and this is going to be directed mostly toward the high-level players, but...
A while ago when I was playing with some organized people, I think Koreans? Unfortunately not sure, but, they were actually talking about "tower push too fast" ie. a tower was destroyed or on the verge of being destroyed "too early." I didn't really give it much thought then, but now I'm curious as to what people think about when it's "too early" to push down a tower. Because I can actually totally understand what they mean (push = creep doesn't stop = liable to overpushing, but nowhere else to go...)
It depends on your team composition, if you are lategame farmers DPS, why not just keep the tower alive.
It also depends on how well you're doing in the lane, would you rather keep outfarming/ possibly zoning people, or kill the tower and let them creep other lanes /farm the jungle.. possibly faster than you do(cough soraka)
I think? There's probably a ton of different reasons, IE keeping amumu + fiddle in a lane for as long as possible sounds good to me, lolz
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hmm, I dunno, haven't really given it much thought. I mean, I get that taking down a tower means that it's more difficult and dangerous to suicide push your creep wave into a tower to make last hitting difficult or after knocking all players off the lane for XP denial. But I'm not sure if that's more important than the map control you gain from knocking down a tower.
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On July 28 2010 03:11 Southlight wrote:
On the note of Heimer pushes, particularly with regards to killing towers, and this is going to be directed mostly toward the high-level players, but...
A while ago when I was playing with some organized people, I think Koreans? Unfortunately not sure, but, they were actually talking about "tower push too fast" ie. a tower was destroyed or on the verge of being destroyed "too early." I didn't really give it much thought then, but now I'm curious as to what people think about when it's "too early" to push down a tower. Because I can actually totally understand what they mean (push = creep doesn't stop = liable to overpushing, but nowhere else to go...)
I don't really thing thats possible to push "too fast." I don't really see a reason to stop unless you've actually run out of easily killed turrets but at that point you have so much map control you can just roam their jungle.
If I kill a turret really quickly I just switch to another lane and help push that turret in too or hit the jungle while my partner stays and soaks exp safely from brush. If it's the solomid you can switch into another lane and push that tower (if you're sivir or heimer or some strong pusher) or just gank the lane then come back when their mid is pushing against your tower.
I can't really see a reason why I'd want to let their tower live any longer than I need to. It's more of a psychological gain if anything because nobody really wants any of their turrets destroyed super early.
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it's really simple, if he isn't OP then why is he first to be banned and if not banned he's picked in EVERY RANKED GAME
(i actually can't back that up as i don't have much ranekd experience, and probably not every ranked game... but if u couldn't ban champions im pretty sure heimer would be like top 2 most picked champions for sure..)
god, i can't believe someone would argue he's not OP
the only people who do that either play one of the few champions that are good against him or play as him and love the advantage it gives them and aren't honest
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On July 28 2010 03:11 Southlight wrote:
On the note of Heimer pushes, particularly with regards to killing towers, and this is going to be directed mostly toward the high-level players, but...
A while ago when I was playing with some organized people, I think Koreans? Unfortunately not sure, but, they were actually talking about "tower push too fast" ie. a tower was destroyed or on the verge of being destroyed "too early." I didn't really give it much thought then, but now I'm curious as to what people think about when it's "too early" to push down a tower. Because I can actually totally understand what they mean (push = creep doesn't stop = liable to overpushing, but nowhere else to go...)
With the fairly large reduction in tower xp from this patch, I think too early is pretty much anytime before your team is ready for serious team fights. That's a conversation that has been going on since early dota though, sure if you push their tower you make it easier to gank that lane, but if the creep wave is pushed you are easier to gank yourself, it's definitely fluent from game to game(early game stacked push teams probably won't give a fuck and will still just push what they can, and setup shop at your 2nd mid tower asap).
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On July 28 2010 03:16 travis wrote:
it's really simple, if he isn't OP then why is he first to be banned and if not banned he's picked in EVERY RANKED GAME
(i actually can't back that up as i don't have much ranekd experience, and probably not every ranked game... but if u couldn't ban champions im pretty sure heimer would be like top 2 most picked champions for sure..)
god, i can't believe someone would argue he's not OP
the only people who do that either play one of the few champions that are good against him or play as him and love the advantage it gives them and aren't honest
Eh, utah and me ban him cause hes annoying to play against, although i kinda like warding their blue and ganking him repeatedly :D
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On July 28 2010 03:11 Southlight wrote:
On the note of Heimer pushes, particularly with regards to killing towers, and this is going to be directed mostly toward the high-level players, but...
A while ago when I was playing with some organized people, I think Koreans? Unfortunately not sure, but, they were actually talking about "tower push too fast" ie. a tower was destroyed or on the verge of being destroyed "too early." I didn't really give it much thought then, but now I'm curious as to what people think about when it's "too early" to push down a tower. Because I can actually totally understand what they mean (push = creep doesn't stop = liable to overpushing, but nowhere else to go...)
If you have some farm-hungry carries and they can control your jungle is one situation I can think of where you shouldn't push too hard, but I don't think anyone really think about it
On July 28 2010 03:16 travis wrote:
it's really simple, if he isn't OP then why is he first to be banned and if not banned he's picked in EVERY RANKED GAME
(i actually can't back that up as i don't have much ranekd experience, and probably not every ranked game... but if u couldn't ban champions im pretty sure heimer would be like top 2 most picked champions for sure..)
god, i can't believe someone would argue he's not OP
the only people who do that either play one of the few champions that are good against him or play as him and love the advantage it gives them and aren't honest
I have only played about 20 ranked games and currently am at like 1360-1400 but yeah heimer has been banned every single time, and most normal games have 2 heimers
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On July 28 2010 03:14 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 03:09 Phrost wrote:On July 28 2010 03:03 travis wrote:
So does riot actually have plans of ever nerfing heimer? Heimer doesn't need to be nerfed, he's not overpowered. If you dont like playing against him you ban him just like you would any other champion you dont enjoy playing against. you can't be serious every ranked game bans heimer first every unranked game that has a heimer the heimer just totally pushes down whatever lane he is in, unless he's up against one of a select few champions who can fight him your argument is the stupidest thing ive ever read "he's not overpowered because you can ban him". LOL, what?
No my argument is he isnt over powered. You can stop him and in ranked games you can counter pick him or if you don't like playing against him you can ban him.
I personally don't like playing against Amumu and Shaco a lot more than heimerdinger and if I am the team captain I almost never ban heimer. He is strong, but if you nerf him to the point where he cant do his job then he becomes another joke champion. You think he is overpowered because you don't like the style of his play but you could say the same thing about a lot of champions that do something uniquely well. Warwick jungles a lot faster than most people can lane but he is counterable by just attacking him when he's weak at a buff creep. Heimer has plenty of weaknesses you just need to know when and how to exploit them. If you let him setup 3 turrets everytime you want to engage him you will lose, no doubt. Just like if you team fight in a clump every battle and let amumu and fiddle ult you.
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He's banned because he's boring to play against/with. As I mentioned, I've not seen a team with Heimer win in a long time at higher levels of competition.
The map control goes both ways. If the creep pushes beyond the river you're highly liable to being ganked, therefore you by default get "zoned" just via fear of mid/jungle ganks. At that point you have no real choice but to get on the move (lose time) and then sit down in another lane, at which point you're diluting exp again and aren't even guaranteed to win, say, a 4v3 push. If your team has a hero like Shaco or Singed, one of those sit-in-one-lane-and-rice heroes, the dead tower is a superb advantage rather than a disadvantage, because not only will few people be willing to challenge your free ricing into your territory, you have a lot of ground to "freefarm." Pushing down a tower too early can result in a ridiculous exp disadvantage this way... and now with the tower kill exp crunched I feel like there's definitely reason to not push down a tower that fast.
*shrugs*
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This may sound like a stupid question, but Sivir is supposed to counter Heimer, right? I've had 3 Sivir v Heimer mids in the last week, and in each case the Heimer has won. I don't play her, what are these Sivirs supposed to be doing? (so I can tell them exactly how they suck/need to improve)
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Heh, actually warwick is a pretty slow jungler in comparison ;/ He just has no need for going back and using health pots as much
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I don't really see a "too early" for pushing a tower, extra xp and gold early is always welcome. This also allows for one laner to go off and roam gank + jungle and the bottom person to farm xp that normally would be fore two.
Not to mention leads to easy ganks of the lane with no tower, always fun. "Over extend" and then BAM there's two teammates and you ontop of someone who thought they could gank you, buh-bies.
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Jungling is not usually an option post-tower push, because your team will 95% of the time have a jungler, so sitting in jungle will simply gimp your jungler, which will really rile them up. Your only options are to sit and risk being ganked by enemy mid/junglers, move to a different lane (and dilute exp), or sit and hope the creep come back after a while. Unless you can completely exert map control by walking into THEIR jungle without dying and/or push a different lane it's very reasonable to me why the people were complaining about not pushing a tower down too fast.
The question would then become, how can you tell? Tough ponderings :p
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On July 28 2010 03:21 Southlight wrote:
He's banned because he's boring to play against/with. As I mentioned, I've not seen a team with Heimer win in a long time at higher levels of competition.
The map control goes both ways. If the creep pushes beyond the river you're highly liable to being ganked, therefore you by default get "zoned" just via fear of mid/jungle ganks. At that point you have no real choice but to get on the move (lose time) and then sit down in another lane, at which point you're diluting exp again and aren't even guaranteed to win, say, a 4v3 push. If your team has a hero like Shaco or Singed, one of those sit-in-one-lane-and-rice heroes, the dead tower is a superb advantage rather than a disadvantage, because not only will few people be willing to challenge your free ricing into your territory, you have a lot of ground to "freefarm." Pushing down a tower too early can result in a ridiculous exp disadvantage this way... and now with the tower kill exp crunched I feel like there's definitely reason to not push down a tower that fast.
*shrugs*
Those are some really good points and it makes me think, would it sometimes be a good thing to intentionally sac a tower instead of trying to defend it? It should be a profitable play in certain circumstances. It's quite interesting. At times I've had a lot of trouble on my lane but after they got my tower early we got a lot of control back, our mid ganked them twice because they overextended, and in the end we got their tower and were outleveling them after a horrendous start.
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EPT
