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Khul Sadukar
Australia1735 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On July 04 2010 18:56 Pandonetho wrote: Really? You think Shen is not useful, and the Tryndamere is the most dangerous carry? I think Tryndamere is trash, and according to other people, Shen is the best tank in the game (I have no opinion of Shen myself, I don't play him and haven't played much against him). Although, I haven't had the chance to play the game ever since Malzahar came out, so things may have changed. You realize that the ONLY reason Shen was good before was that Feint could tank anything because it was OP, right? Since that nerf shen is like the 6th best tank, which makes him like 4th worst. Trynadmere is the most dangerous carry in my opinion because I wasn't counting heimer as a carry. I guess if I count him he's the most dangerous. The reason I chose Trynd was because the more you let him sit in lane and farm, the more likely it is that he can solo your team lategame. He's not the best carry--best carry is probably Pantheon if we're not counting Heimer (note: I did NOT say OP) and ranged carries are solidly meh right now. Kogmaw has the top ranged spot IMO due to the massive, massive range on his ult. You think Gangplank has caught on already Uta? I was thinking he was getting more popular, but to me Heimer is solidly the FOTM because he's in literally every game. | ||
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Khul Sadukar
Australia1735 Posts
On July 04 2010 18:49 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Here's my analysis of the metagame right now: The dominant team is the siege team, based mainly on the strength of Heimerdinger and Kogmaw in conjunction. No-tank teams with dedicated siege roles (i.e. Soraka, Heimer, Kogmaw, Cho, Morgana) are extremely powerful. There are only a handful of useful tanks, because usually they fill the initiator role. The good ones are Amumu, Rammus and Malphite. Blitzcrank counts more as an initiator, but if you count him he's super strong. Alistar and Shen are not very useful, but they're not particularly bad choices for a comp. The most dangerous carry in the game right now is Tryndamere. The best laning champ right now is Pantheon. The best support is still Soraka, even post-nerfs to everything she did. The best tank is Amumu, and the flavor of the month is Heimerdinger. The next flavor of the month I anticipate to be Gangplank, based on his ability to shut down siege teams and all the buffs he got recently. The next metagame shift will be AoE ult teams to counter the siege teams based around Amumu/Gangplank/Fiddle/Morgana/etc. I'd be interested in seeing posts from other players similar to the one I just made. It will help us keep ahead of the metagame. [edit] Also, one of my friends has been premading with Shurelia and she called Heimerdinger "freaking OP", so I think there may be a Heimer nerf coming in the next few patches. [/edit] Yea ive been seeing alot of this, even at my shitty low elo. Teams either have no tanks, or the other team has tanks. Either way end up losing. Somehow I keep getting ppl that just seem to end up feeding. Last game I won there was 1-2 decent players on our team that actually got kills. So far im strongly tempted to just afk 15m in if im the only one with kills on our team. Quite often be able to control (and dominate in some cases) my lane as Panth, but then teamfight starts and lvl wise its no contest.  Oh and I went 3 man premade yesterday with some random guy who added me after a match and his friend. Definitely went into another elo with them (the ashe was bitching about feeders after 1-2 deaths in 10m.. jeez) So yea, premade wasnt fun either vsing good players all lvl 30. I get stomped enough as it is haha. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 04 2010 16 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 16 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 16 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 16 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 16 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 16 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:52 NB wrote: how to get 900+ ap? i want to know the maximum ap you can get without runes + masteries I had 1206 but I had some AP from runes, I guess like 1190 or so would be max, on Kassadin at least. That you get with 5 archangels and a Zhonya. I had 900 AP with 5 Archangels and a Deathfire Grasp On July 04 2010 20 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 20 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:21 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: You realize that the ONLY reason Shen was good before was that Feint could tank anything because it was OP, right? Since that nerf shen is like the 6th best tank, which makes him like 4th worst. Trynadmere is the most dangerous carry in my opinion because I wasn't counting heimer as a carry. I guess if I count him he's the most dangerous. The reason I chose Trynd was because the more you let him sit in lane and farm, the more likely it is that he can solo your team lategame. He's not the best carry--best carry is probably Pantheon if we're not counting Heimer (note: I did NOT say OP) and ranged carries are solidly meh right now. Kogmaw has the top ranged spot IMO due to the massive, massive range on his ult. You think Gangplank has caught on already Uta? I was thinking he was getting more popular, but to me Heimer is solidly the FOTM because he's in literally every game. I'll say that Tryndamere is still trash. His damage is really good, but he can't solo any team at all. His biggest problem is mobility, and he doesn't have resistance to cc. Even in a game I played with my friend yesterday when a Tryndamere got fed 9-1 and I was Anivia and my friend was Morgana, we could shut him down incredibly easily even if just one of our disables hit him. Slows, stuns, snares make Tryndamere completely useless and he still is extremely slow when compared to someone like Yi and his chasing is worse than even someone like Olaf's. He'll never be able to solo a team with some cc, if you try to do it you'll get disabled to 0 hp and then you have to ulti and then you already have to try your best to spin away. Even so, Master Yi has more damage and he does it quicker, the only thing Tryndamere has is his ability to stay alive for 6 seconds, but in reality it's more like 3 until you have to start running away to avoid being destroyed. Champions like Heimerdinger and Ashe especially, who both are really popular at this time, make him almost useless and unable to do anything properly. I think Olaf does everything Tryndamere does, just a billion times better. Oh, and saying a carry is dangerous because he might be able to solo your team if you let him freefarm a lane for about 45 minutes is just silly. Oh right, and Shen still is amazing. Feint even after the nerfs is still really good, his passive gives him insane damage for a tank, and his ultimate's ability to save anyone from anywhere is extremely good, not to mention that he can run from almost anything and catch almost anything with his taunt. Oh right, and his laning is amazing. On July 04 2010 19 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 19 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:42 NB wrote: that is one of the anoying things happening right now to me, after getting absolute dominance early on and get 6 turrets, there almost no freaking way to push in if the enemy team has some champs like Heim or anivia, even baron wont help the situation and if you are not careful, an ace happen and you lose the game. This happen mostly because the level cap 18 make people stop growing and start depending on items. as we push, the enemy safely farm behind turrets so their farming is guarentee such that eventualy, they will hit 18 and max out their item. My only suggestion to this is to make the entrance to base right now 30% bigger to allow moar concave shits. Vs the turtle strat you have to push all 3 lanes simultaneously and move some champions between the lanes, then at times push one tower "hard" with 3 while 2 others push the 2 other towers, then switch the tower that you push with 3 people. That way you should at least deal some damage to the tower until they can react. Sometimes you can have 2-1-2 top-mid-bottom and wait until some champions come to top and bot towers to defend, then the moment you get there you all go to mid at once and you should get the mid tower, then it's a lot better. You have a huge advantage and if you have any pokey siege champions like Ezreal, Heimer, Kogmaw, Karthus whatever, it makes it a lot, lot easier. Try popping some wards inside their base in between the towers to see where they're going. You need some teamplay for this of course. That's not the only way, another thing you can do is just hold back, farm a lane that's further from them if that's possible, and take every single neutral creep and do baron if it's up. Eventually they'll probably all push together because you have complete map control and no one is dumb enough to wander off alone, although if they do, capitalize on it. Anyway, when they all push a lane together just force a teamfight and after you win it, you'll also win the game. If they never push, just go back to split-pushing after you clear all the neutrals and have the buffs, they really shouldn't be able to hold you off for that long after you get your first inhibitor, since that makes it pretty much 6v5. | ||
suffeli
Finland772 Posts
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ghen
United States1356 Posts
On July 04 2010 20:21 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I was thinking he was getting more popular, but to me Heimer is solidly the FOTM because he's in literally every game. Heimer is flavor of the week, not month.. because he's free. It will end very soon. I'm about 12 / 8 with heimer this week. 54 / 63 / 106 K/D/A and I figure I'm only just now learning the best tricks to keep him alive and farm hard with turret placement. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On July 04 2010 20:48 Shikyo wrote: I'll say that Tryndamere is still trash. His damage is really good, but he can't solo any team at all. His biggest problem is mobility, and he doesn't have resistance to cc. While I agree with 99% of your post, I contend that Master Yi has bigger problems with CC than Trynd does because Trynd can initiate with spin and crit for nearly all of a squishie's HP, and the only way to stop him from critting you to death is to CC him, from which he can blow ult, get a kill, and still get out with spin. It also has to do with the metagame, not many teams run enough chain-cc to hold Trynd down while he's ulting and if they do... well, they blow all of their cc on Trynd and then they've got no stuns. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On July 04 2010 22:06 ghen wrote: Heimer is flavor of the week, not month.. because he's free. It will end very soon. I'm about 12 / 8 with heimer this week. 54 / 63 / 106 K/D/A and I figure I'm only just now learning the best tricks to keep him alive and farm hard with turret placement. I disagree, at my level everyone can afford to buy anything so he's in pretty much every game until he's nerfed and has been since before he was free. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Many heimers are a little too hasty in trying to take down the enemy tower and will screw over their build to do it (taking teleport/clarity and maxing grenades first). This won't work against competent mids who will bring enough regen/potions and keep dislodging your turret nest. I like Dan Dinh's build of maxing micro-rockets before grenades much better, since rockets can't be dodged and there's no casting animation, meaning you can use it while escaping a gank. Anyways, gankplank is pretty cool. Once you solve his mana issues with runes and masteries there's really not a lot anyone can do to stop him from farming like a madman while denying you the exp/gold. The build is E W W Q W R and then W > Q > E. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 04 2010 22 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 22 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 22 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: While I agree with 99% of your post, I contend that Master Yi has bigger problems with CC than Trynd does because Trynd can initiate with spin and crit for nearly all of a squishie's HP, and the only way to stop him from critting you to death is to CC him, from which he can blow ult, get a kill, and still get out with spin. It also has to do with the metagame, not many teams run enough chain-cc to hold Trynd down while he's ulting and if they do... well, they blow all of their cc on Trynd and then they've got no stuns. Well, Master Yi is completely immune to slows, which is the most common cc enemy champions have and one that absolutely thrashes Tryndamere. In addition to that, his Alpha Strike after the remi-recent buffs is a better approaching tool than the spin is in my opinion(makes you invulnerable and gets you right in their face whereas Trynd can for example be snared in the middle of his spin, in which case he's screwed), and if you save your double strike proc like you should, he can down a squishie even faster than Trynd(after which you get all your cooldowns back and can do the exact same thing to the next enemy champion). Both Ashe and Heimer are really popular, and Heimer ulti / blind and Ashe's anything make Tryndamere completely useless. Yeah, Tryndamere might be able to get one kill while in his ulti, but if he miscalculates that he's dead, and that's not such a bad trade for the enemy team. Tryndamere also has just about no way to run away when he realizes he just got screwed, the spin is really gimmicky and short range, and the only way you'll be running away with it is if you're next to a wall. Yi can Highlander, Alpha an enemy, then Highlander again to run away if need be or just continue using Alpha to get right next to another enemy(and then they really won't run from his Highlander-chasing, whereas Tryndamere can use his Shout one time and after that he has no way to catch up). Not to mention that Yi with his passive, E, and ulti actually does more dps than Tryndamere does, possibly barring Tryndamere from being at about 1% hp. This is all assuming equal farm and not even counting in the fact that Yi's early game is a billion times better and that he should be way ahead in farm if the enemy team is competent. Tryndamere absolutely needs both Youmu's Ghostblade and Ghost, and when those are down, he's just about entirely useless. He also relies on his Cleanse being up, since he WILL be CC'd when he spins in and even a simple Ashe Volley makes him absolutely useless. Tryndamere can 1v1 almost anyone just like any other DPS carry can(although I think both Yi and Jax do this better), but in teamfights he's borderline useless unless you have perfect timing and they lose their focus for a while. Tryndamere also completely relies on having a Lizard buff to be effective at all(unless you buy Frozen Mallet or something). What Tryndamere does well assuming his Youmu and Ghost are both up, is some sort of "clean-up", which when it works is absolutely amazing(spin in, crit crit crit, spin to another enemy, crit crit crit, spin again, crit crit crit, shout a person who runs away, crit crit crit), but everything needs to be really perfect for it to work properly, and you always have to rely on the RNG to give you the crits to reset your spin cooldown unless you're really low hp, after which you'll have to use your experience to determine if you should get your ass out of there or try to grab one more kill. The ulti really doesn't give him as much survivability as some people think(very often the only thing you do with it is delay your death by 6 seconds. Most of the time after using ulti you can keep attacking for about 2-3 more seconds, after which you have to start running away. Unless, of course, it's some really hilarious situation where they don't have much cc and you can 1v3 a group of people(normally they'll call Tryndamere OP here), however you have to be sure to finish the battle during your ulti(the ONLY time your ulti effectively lasts the whole 6 seconds) since if it happens to run out at any time during the battle, you're dead. However, after your Youmu and Ghost run out, you really can't do anything anymore until you have them back up. Having only Youmu really isn't enough for any more than 2 people if lucky. I believe that Yi does what he does a lot better and more reliably. That's just a comparison between the two though, this isn't even taking into account the fact that Tryndamere doesn't fit into the current metagame in the slightest and is the very worst laner in the entire game. On July 04 2010 22 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 22 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:21 Juicyfruit wrote: I think the easiest and best way to do farm with heimer is to place 3 turrets at the center of the lane, and then hard push your creeps into their turrets to reset the lane over and over. I see a lot of heimers "terran pushing" by replacing their turrets over and over to bring them close to the enemy tower, and I think that's the wrong way to do it. Many heimers are a little too hasty in trying to take down the enemy tower and will screw over their build to do it (taking teleport/clarity and maxing grenades first). This won't work against competent mids who will bring enough regen/potions and keep dislodging your turret nest. I like Dan Dinh's build of maxing micro-rockets before grenades much better, since rockets can't be dodged and there's no casting animation, meaning you can use it while escaping a gank. Anyways, gankplank is pretty cool. Once you solve his mana issues with runes and masteries there's really not a lot anyone can do to stop him from farming like a madman while denying you the exp/gold. The build is E W W Q W R and then W > Q > E. Yep, on Heimer I'd maybe get one rank of the grenade to poke at the tower or for the stun(most often not, though). I also don't get ulti until lvl 11, after which I get it again at lvl 12. Rather have max turrets and rockets. I also pushed towers by having 2 turrets around the mid and then always putting one in tower range when you get that far, but that's been nerfed so I'm not sure how effective that is anymore. | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On July 04 2010 22:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: While I agree with 99% of your post, I contend that Master Yi has bigger problems with CC than Trynd does because Trynd can initiate with spin and crit for nearly all of a squishie's HP, and the only way to stop him from critting you to death is to CC him, from which he can blow ult, get a kill, and still get out with spin. It also has to do with the metagame, not many teams run enough chain-cc to hold Trynd down while he's ulting and if they do... well, they blow all of their cc on Trynd and then they've got no stuns. this explains why yi is better than tryndamere. But on a more serious note; Yi is immune to one of the forms of CC that plague all melee dps and he can instantly close the distance between him and an enemy without taking damage. Tryndamere is probably more fun to play but he's just going to end up tanking a lot of damage in a teamfight then running away because he doesnt have a ton of staying power. TBH i'd rather have a Yi tank with meditate than Tryndamere with his ult blazing. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Pandonetho
Canada321 Posts
You realize that the ONLY reason Shen was good before was that Feint could tank anything because it was OP, right? Since that nerf shen is like the 6th best tank, which makes him like 4th worst. You realize that I didn't make any opinion about Shen right? So no, I did not realize that Shen was only good because of his original feint. | ||
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Nafaltar
Germany302 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 04 2010 23 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 23 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 23 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:37 Nafaltar wrote: Come on Shikyo I thought you where maining Tryndamere, how can you claim he is the "very worst laner" in the entire game. By maining him. Maybe Udyr is worse but he's an amazing jungler. Tryndamere has no ability to put any pressure on his opponents whatsoever, anything he does gets all the minions attacking him, He has no skill with which to farm from further away etc. He has to be right next to his opponents and if it even is something like Shaco + Singed, he won't be getting any farm. He's also the easiest champion in the game to deny exp from and he entirely relies on his lane partner for lane control. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
And do not say innervating locket. I'm not sure I want to invest in chalice. I use it for GP now and it works fine. Not sure about Ashe. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
It was me(sion)/kata/twitch/ashe(mid)/nida vs gang/ww/morgana/nunu/ashe, it was a massacre. The splash damage they would deal was insane, gang pretty much tricked me into going veil (I usually open shield->situational boots->aegis into either warmogs, veil, thornmail or glacial shroud), they ended up going all physical except morgana which set me quite behind but I was on top of the lvl race and we held pretty much every turret while taking out 2 outer turrets and their mid. That was until they started pushing. All at once except maybe for gang who was holding minions, the nuking was just insane. In every teamfight I had to fast stun ww or else he'd gib someone, following that I would get CCed. But the worst was whenever they used 3+ ultras, it was just insane. Splash dmg everywhere, since they would stick together I opted to go for sunfire which took quite a long time to get, our kata somehow was 1 lvl behind in the lvling race (didn't want to take mid, died twice while laning with nida, didnt solo kill until we were 15) and thus we didn't really have exceptional ganking power (idk what our twitch went for but it felt like he wasn't doing enough dmg, I recall him shooting way slower than he should have been around lv 11-15. I think he may have gone for starks). Basically when we were approaching the lategame, lv 17 I had almost built my sheen they lured us to defend our turret and raped us in a teamfight between mid and btm (they had terrain advantage) and proceeded to clean our base. It was in no way a premade at least for our team, not sure about our opponents, but I have no idea what we could have done to stop them. I should have avoided rushing for veil as my 3rd item and delayed it to the 4th slot, our nidalee seemed to have been pumping her heal while gearing for atk instead of ap and our twitch had slow atk speed but there was no way to kill them in a teamfight and they were very good at defending the sides after losing the outer turrets (keeping the minions next to the bushes and woods where they could sit and gank. Still idk how we could have turned things around. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 04 2010 23 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 23 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:56 Juicyfruit wrote: Running out of mana on Ashe while spamming volley, even with MP5 runes. How2fix? And do not say innervating locket. I'm not sure I want to invest in chalice. I use it for GP now and it works fine. Not sure about Ashe. Chalice is really good on Ashe, I suggest it on her. If you don't like it, well um just spam less. Another choice is to start with meki and just sell it later. | ||
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rredtooth
5461 Posts
On July 04 2010 18:49 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: wait... wat? "no way" on half the stuff you said. trynd the best carry? not even close... he's still far from being a viable character. heim is even better? sure he's become more popular and viable recently but there's no way he's going to beat an evenly stacked true-carry. shen/alistar not useful? you need to see good shens/alistars but i've yet to see an amazing rammus (except yiruru during one game). don't see how pirate shuts down siege teams though.Here's my analysis of the metagame right now: The dominant team is the siege team, based mainly on the strength of Heimerdinger and Kogmaw in conjunction. No-tank teams with dedicated siege roles (i.e. Soraka, Heimer, Kogmaw, Cho, Morgana) are extremely powerful. There are only a handful of useful tanks, because usually they fill the initiator role. The good ones are Amumu, Rammus and Malphite. Blitzcrank counts more as an initiator, but if you count him he's super strong. Alistar and Shen are not very useful, but they're not particularly bad choices for a comp. The most dangerous carry in the game right now is Tryndamere. The best laning champ right now is Pantheon. The best support is still Soraka, even post-nerfs to everything she did. The best tank is Amumu, and the flavor of the month is Heimerdinger. The next flavor of the month I anticipate to be Gangplank, based on his ability to shut down siege teams and all the buffs he got recently. The next metagame shift will be AoE ult teams to counter the siege teams based around Amumu/Gangplank/Fiddle/Morgana/etc. I'd be interested in seeing posts from other players similar to the one I just made. It will help us keep ahead of the metagame. [edit] Also, one of my friends has been premading with Shurelia and she called Heimerdinger "freaking OP", so I think there may be a Heimer nerf coming in the next few patches. [/edit] agree that mummy is the best tank atm. disagree with your assessment of the "metagame". i think that right now disengage/anti-initiation teams are as dominant as ever. map-control (not to be confused with lane/tower-control siege teams) are getting stronger too with shaco/pantheon's increasing popularities. to be honest, i haven't seen that many kogmaw/heimers/pirate in my games. pantheon/ezreal are a dime a dozen though. after the stupid heal-team phase, it's become a really balanced mix of characters that show up in games. there isn't really a global "metagame" everyone is following, even with tryhard premade teams. AoE teams still work, heal teams still work, push teams still work, sivir click R for AHHH teams, twitch/kayle/aoe teams, janna gay teams, global ult teams: they all work in capable hands. it's just a matter of finding people who are good with characters that fit your comp. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 05 2010 00 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 00 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:00 r33k wrote: Holy crap I just played vs probably the scariest comp I've met so far... It was me(sion)/kata/twitch/ashe(mid)/nida vs gang/ww/morgana/nunu/ashe, it was a massacre. The splash damage they would deal was insane, gang pretty much tricked me into going veil (I usually open shield->situational boots->aegis into either warmogs, veil, thornmail or glacial shroud), they ended up going all physical except morgana which set me quite behind but I was on top of the lvl race and we held pretty much every turret while taking out 2 outer turrets and their mid. That was until they started pushing. All at once except maybe for gang who was holding minions, the nuking was just insane. In every teamfight I had to fast stun ww or else he'd gib someone, following that I would get CCed. But the worst was whenever they used 3+ ultras, it was just insane. Splash dmg everywhere, since they would stick together I opted to go for sunfire which took quite a long time to get, our kata somehow was 1 lvl behind in the lvling race (didn't want to take mid, died twice while laning with nida, didnt solo kill until we were 15) and thus we didn't really have exceptional ganking power (idk what our twitch went for but it felt like he wasn't doing enough dmg, I recall him shooting way slower than he should have been around lv 11-15. I think he may have gone for starks). Basically when we were approaching the lategame, lv 17 I had almost built my sheen they lured us to defend our turret and raped us in a teamfight between mid and btm (they had terrain advantage) and proceeded to clean our base. It was in no way a premade at least for our team, not sure about our opponents, but I have no idea what we could have done to stop them. I should have avoided rushing for veil as my 3rd item and delayed it to the 4th slot, our nidalee seemed to have been pumping her heal while gearing for atk instead of ap and our twitch had slow atk speed but there was no way to kill them in a teamfight and they were very good at defending the sides after losing the outer turrets (keeping the minions next to the bushes and woods where they could sit and gank. Still idk how we could have turned things around. Don't stun WW, save it for Nunu. Don't engage in teamfights, have Nidalee push a lane while 4 def a tower if 5 of them are pushing, she can run away from anything. And they had 3 dps so I dunno why you ever thought of banshee | ||
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