EPTOn October 22 2010 04:26 Insanious wrote:
FoN: 2610 Build cost
Start: Regen Pendant (-435g)
From start of game -> lvl 6 ~7mins (-420g) (you get ~1g/s in game)
6mins with Greed = -42g (got in masteries for 9/0/21)
Total amount of minions needed to be farmed = 1713/22= ~78 minion kills.
This is ~6-7 waves earlier than getting 100 minion kills (account for missing minions).
This assumes you stay in lane, and do not grab any jungle creeps when they are up around you.
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2010 02:16 Brees wrote:
lol having an ego isnt a good way to start your argument.
I DUNNO ABOUT U BUT IM FUCKIN PRO AS HELL LOL 6 INIFINITY EDGES AT lvl 6 DAWG
I'd really love to see your level 6 FoN today if your going to be on.
does anyone else think this guy is trolling me or are you all actually getting 2.5k gold by level 6 which is roughly 113 minion kills (2500/22) by level 5-6....
In WCG some of the best lasthitters in the game only reached 100 by lvl 11, and that was with strictly farming top (barely any aggression)
On October 22 2010 01:38 Insanious wrote:
I dunno about u, but i have FoN at lvl 5-6 and usually casters are still in lane sans annie... well if they can find someone else to come into the lane so they can gank. Leaving a mord alone in a lane = bye bye tower in 2 seconds, then you have an angry man in armor running around ganking people, no fun.
On October 22 2010 00:41 Brees wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
well the post you quoted specifically deals with teamfights. My first post is lol'ing at people that get FoN as their first item since its more of a lategame item then early.
"FoN rush is to dominate a lane with mages in it (you take very little damage once you get a FoN."
Any mage sans veigar should hopefully be ganking at this point or it pretty much defeats the purpose of playing a mage. If you want to just chill in lane vs morde until lvl 13 then play a physical carry anyway
and I in no way advocate rushing an omen, as thats also a lategame item(scales with armor/mr)
As i stated my personal preference would be spirit visage/haunting guise over FoN as my first purchases.
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 22 2010 00:34 Insanious wrote:
Where did you specifically bring up teamfights? Not in the post where I quoted where you wondered why people rush FoN on champions.
FoN rush is to dominate a lane with mages in it (you take very little damage once you get a FoN.
Then MR and HP5 are great stats on Mord, its an item you get on him anyway, even vs mostly physical teams later in the game. You change your build order to counter the lane you are in.
I mean if you really want it... you can get a FoN by the time you hit lvl 6-7. (Still during laneing) and you can probably squeeze out a chainmail + boots by the end of laneing.
So when you get into a team fight your 1k eHP on your shield, that constantly replenishes due to your spell spam has you taking 0 dmg during the AoE shit storm at the start of the fight, and very little damage if you lost the team fight and end up 1v2'ing or 1v3'ing which mord can do at the early parts of the game with the right armor and mr...
Mord is my fav char, and trust me, rushing omen vs casters gets you killed... and FoN is something you will want anyway so you can spam your skills without worrying about killing your self (like siphon at lvl 5 with no regen pendant
bad times) (btw for those that don't know, mord + doran's shield will out regen your lvl1 Q + lvl1 W + lvl 2 E, but when you hit lvl 3 E your regen isn't enough and you start killing your self, which is not fun at all)
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2010 00:01 Brees wrote:
woosh...your talking about maybe 10-15 minutes into the game, hardly laning anymore. this post makes no sense to me.
i specifically brought up teamfights so this post is like double wtf for me.
On October 21 2010 22:49 Insanious wrote:
Um... if I open FoN on Mord, its because I'm laneing vs casters (like a veigar + morg lane or something stupid). Where armor isn't going to help me.
Or 1v1 vs annie, w/e.
The casters will cast on me because, um, i dunno I'm the only one in their lane for them to attack?
Then after that, I get Armor and then HP so when we team fight I don't fold like paper.
Getting an Omen usually... its very rarely that laneing phase ends and I don't have FoN + Omen...
The whole point to my post, is that when laneing vs casters, FoN is a viable opener as you will be able to farm enough to get armor + health to deal with those pesky carries.
You don't open FoN first vs say 1v1 trist, or vs garen + tyrn... then you open chainmail -> omen.
Again, Chainmail > Health early for Mord for the same reason FoN > Health early vs casters.
Everything is situational.
On October 21 2010 22:10 Brees wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
You forgot the part where casters dont go after meatshields, and will proceed to rape your carries then with everything spent, their DPS will lol @ your no hp build and kill you insanely quickly in the clean-up.
basically if you want to do your no hp build then at least give casters a reason to burst you. In morde's case, id rather have spirit visage/haunting guise then FoN.
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 21 2010 13:41 Insanious wrote:
Um you good sir do not appreciate the power of Morde's shield + MR
FoN + Base MR + MR/lvl runes + Shield = blocks 800->1,500dmg... that negates A LOT of burst from a burst caster.
Say Morde is lvl 8 when he gets his FoN (rushed hard):
MR:
76(FoN)
40(base at lvl 8)
10.8 (MR/lvl glyphs)
15 (lvl2 creeping death)
= 141MR
Shield strength at lvl 8 = 363
363*2.41=874.88 damage blocked by shield at lvl 8.
This pretty much negates all damage done by a lvl 8 caster... period.
Annie at lvl 8: (RoA + sorc shoes)
Lets say 80AP + 28.5MPen
- Q lvl 4 = 263
- W lvl 2 = 193
- E lvl 1
- R lvl 1 = 256
= 712 Dmg
Shield strength after MPen = 363*2.125=771.375dmg
This means that Mord can soak up 60dmg of AoE from the shield + Tibbers and auto attacks before he takes a single point of health damage.
Add in the fact that once CDs are used on the caster, Morde can easily regen his shield, and if he has 4s to regen he will get:
HP: 1276 (Base hp +lvl8 bonus +Doran's Shield)
HP5: 2.37
40HP5 (FoN)
8HP5(Dorans shield)
22.33HP5 (the FoN healing for 0.35% of health/second)
6% Extra HP5 due to mastery (perseverance thx to 9/0/21)
Total HP5 = 74.54HP5
Healed During 4s of CD = 59.632HP
59.632*2.125 = 126.7 eHP vs annie.
Basically, this means that as long as mord has FoN, and knows how to use his skills to keep his shield at max or close to max, then Mord will take close to 0 dmg from a level 8 annie as long as he has a FoN.
- - - - -
Shield synergies with MR + Armor, not health
The shield is basically like 140 -> 650 quickly regening HP. This is why Resistance items > health items on mord.
Yes HP is good, but not all the time... I like FoN Fast on Mord vs Casters because:
- Shield + MR = Takes no Dmg
- FoN = Runs fast, can catch pretty much anyone and people cannot run from Mord, helping to partial solve one of his problems
- HP5 means I take no dmg from casting my spells during a fight, so that I can stay in a fight longer
(Yes I do get Omen, BV, Sunfires, and Frozen Mallet on Mord when necessary... but i prioratize negatron cloaks and chainmail before any health items such as a giants belt.)
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2010 12:36 Brees wrote:
no having 1.5k hp and a FoN wont protect you from mages
contrary to popular belief after seeing singed/morde/mundo/etc rush this item first lol
no having 1.5k hp and a FoN wont protect you from mages
contrary to popular belief after seeing singed/morde/mundo/etc rush this item first lol
Um you good sir do not appreciate the power of Morde's shield + MR
FoN + Base MR + MR/lvl runes + Shield = blocks 800->1,500dmg... that negates A LOT of burst from a burst caster.
Say Morde is lvl 8 when he gets his FoN (rushed hard):
MR:
76(FoN)
40(base at lvl 8)
10.8 (MR/lvl glyphs)
15 (lvl2 creeping death)
= 141MR
Shield strength at lvl 8 = 363
363*2.41=874.88 damage blocked by shield at lvl 8.
This pretty much negates all damage done by a lvl 8 caster... period.
Annie at lvl 8: (RoA + sorc shoes)
Lets say 80AP + 28.5MPen
- Q lvl 4 = 263
- W lvl 2 = 193
- E lvl 1
- R lvl 1 = 256
= 712 Dmg
Shield strength after MPen = 363*2.125=771.375dmg
This means that Mord can soak up 60dmg of AoE from the shield + Tibbers and auto attacks before he takes a single point of health damage.
Add in the fact that once CDs are used on the caster, Morde can easily regen his shield, and if he has 4s to regen he will get:
HP: 1276 (Base hp +lvl8 bonus +Doran's Shield)
HP5: 2.37
40HP5 (FoN)
8HP5(Dorans shield)
22.33HP5 (the FoN healing for 0.35% of health/second)
6% Extra HP5 due to mastery (perseverance thx to 9/0/21)
Total HP5 = 74.54HP5
Healed During 4s of CD = 59.632HP
59.632*2.125 = 126.7 eHP vs annie.
Basically, this means that as long as mord has FoN, and knows how to use his skills to keep his shield at max or close to max, then Mord will take close to 0 dmg from a level 8 annie as long as he has a FoN.
- - - - -
Shield synergies with MR + Armor, not health
The shield is basically like 140 -> 650 quickly regening HP. This is why Resistance items > health items on mord. Yes HP is good, but not all the time... I like FoN Fast on Mord vs Casters because:
- Shield + MR = Takes no Dmg
- FoN = Runs fast, can catch pretty much anyone and people cannot run from Mord, helping to partial solve one of his problems
- HP5 means I take no dmg from casting my spells during a fight, so that I can stay in a fight longer
(Yes I do get Omen, BV, Sunfires, and Frozen Mallet on Mord when necessary... but i prioratize negatron cloaks and chainmail before any health items such as a giants belt.)
You forgot the part where casters dont go after meatshields, and will proceed to rape your carries then with everything spent, their DPS will lol @ your no hp build and kill you insanely quickly in the clean-up.
basically if you want to do your no hp build then at least give casters a reason to burst you. In morde's case, id rather have spirit visage/haunting guise then FoN.
Um... if I open FoN on Mord, its because I'm laneing vs casters (like a veigar + morg lane or something stupid). Where armor isn't going to help me.
Or 1v1 vs annie, w/e.
The casters will cast on me because, um, i dunno I'm the only one in their lane for them to attack?
Then after that, I get Armor and then HP so when we team fight I don't fold like paper.
Getting an Omen usually... its very rarely that laneing phase ends and I don't have FoN + Omen...
The whole point to my post, is that when laneing vs casters, FoN is a viable opener as you will be able to farm enough to get armor + health to deal with those pesky carries.
You don't open FoN first vs say 1v1 trist, or vs garen + tyrn... then you open chainmail -> omen.
Again, Chainmail > Health early for Mord for the same reason FoN > Health early vs casters.
Everything is situational.
woosh...your talking about maybe 10-15 minutes into the game, hardly laning anymore. this post makes no sense to me.
i specifically brought up teamfights so this post is like double wtf for me.
Where did you specifically bring up teamfights? Not in the post where I quoted where you wondered why people rush FoN on champions.
FoN rush is to dominate a lane with mages in it (you take very little damage once you get a FoN.
Then MR and HP5 are great stats on Mord, its an item you get on him anyway, even vs mostly physical teams later in the game. You change your build order to counter the lane you are in.
I mean if you really want it... you can get a FoN by the time you hit lvl 6-7. (Still during laneing) and you can probably squeeze out a chainmail + boots by the end of laneing.
So when you get into a team fight your 1k eHP on your shield, that constantly replenishes due to your spell spam has you taking 0 dmg during the AoE shit storm at the start of the fight, and very little damage if you lost the team fight and end up 1v2'ing or 1v3'ing which mord can do at the early parts of the game with the right armor and mr...
Mord is my fav char, and trust me, rushing omen vs casters gets you killed... and FoN is something you will want anyway so you can spam your skills without worrying about killing your self (like siphon at lvl 5 with no regen pendant
bad times) (btw for those that don't know, mord + doran's shield will out regen your lvl1 Q + lvl1 W + lvl 2 E, but when you hit lvl 3 E your regen isn't enough and you start killing your self, which is not fun at all)well the post you quoted specifically deals with teamfights. My first post is lol'ing at people that get FoN as their first item since its more of a lategame item then early.
"FoN rush is to dominate a lane with mages in it (you take very little damage once you get a FoN."
Any mage sans veigar should hopefully be ganking at this point or it pretty much defeats the purpose of playing a mage. If you want to just chill in lane vs morde until lvl 13 then play a physical carry anyway
and I in no way advocate rushing an omen, as thats also a lategame item(scales with armor/mr)
As i stated my personal preference would be spirit visage/haunting guise over FoN as my first purchases.
I dunno about u, but i have FoN at lvl 5-6 and usually casters are still in lane sans annie... well if they can find someone else to come into the lane so they can gank. Leaving a mord alone in a lane = bye bye tower in 2 seconds, then you have an angry man in armor running around ganking people, no fun.
lol having an ego isnt a good way to start your argument.
I DUNNO ABOUT U BUT IM FUCKIN PRO AS HELL LOL 6 INIFINITY EDGES AT lvl 6 DAWG
I'd really love to see your level 6 FoN today if your going to be on.
does anyone else think this guy is trolling me or are you all actually getting 2.5k gold by level 6 which is roughly 113 minion kills (2500/22) by level 5-6....
In WCG some of the best lasthitters in the game only reached 100 by lvl 11, and that was with strictly farming top (barely any aggression)
FoN: 2610 Build cost
Start: Regen Pendant (-435g)
From start of game -> lvl 6 ~7mins (-420g) (you get ~1g/s in game)
6mins with Greed = -42g (got in masteries for 9/0/21)
Total amount of minions needed to be farmed = 1713/22= ~78 minion kills.
This is ~6-7 waves earlier than getting 100 minion kills (account for missing minions).
This assumes you stay in lane, and do not grab any jungle creeps when they are up around you.
6 minons per wave, waves spawn every 15 seconds = 24 minions per minute = ~170 minions means you need to average a little under 3 minion kills per wave to do it. Impossible? No. Easy against competent opponents? Not really.
count them in game... or the best way to notice is play deny plank and deny every tank minion. you will notice them every 2nd wave.
