EPTLeague of Legends [New forum, check OP!] - Page 1273
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lIlIlIlIlIlI
Korea (South)3851 Posts
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On October 20 2010 04:24 Jazriel wrote: + Show Spoiler + http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=299227 http://i56.tinypic.com/2qwk60g.jpg So people keep asking "what is better now" but it's not that easy of an answer. Armor pen is better on low armor champs than high armor champs, and is also better when combined with already high AD. Because there are 2 variables, armor and damage, that determine which is better a graph is necessary to see at which armor vs damage combos which runes are better for. This can help you make an educated decision as to which is better for you! In the following equation, x = armor and y = your champions current AD The left side of this equation is the damage increase (with respect to armor) given by the AD runes. The right side represents the damage increase given by armor penetration, which is based on your current AD and the enemies armor. 8.64(1-(x/100+x)) = y(1-(x-14.94)/(100+x-14.94)) - y(1-(x/100+x)) This simplifies to y = 8.64(1-(x/100+x))/[(x/100+x)-((x-14.94)/(100+x-14.94))] Below is the graph http://i56.tinypic.com/2qwk60g.jpg Basically, the Y-axis is damage and the X-axis is armor. The line represents when the armor pen and damage give exactly the same bonus damage. Any point above the line, armor penetration is better. Any point below the line and damage is better. These results show that if you have high damage, against low armor champions, armor penetration runes are better. Against high armor champions, AD runes are better. It's up to you what is more important! If you notice any errors, let me know. The graph seems to represent values that Riot would want for these 2 runes to make them both viable. Happy Hunting! Good to know. It's interesting to see in a graph. If they have 200 armor and you have less than 160 AD, AD is better than APen. If they have 30 armour and you have >~68 AD, APen > AD. I'm just going to say ArPen > AD for the simple reason that: - Average champ armor is around 75 at 18 (69 on trist for example) - Average AD on an AD champ at 18 is around 110 (105 on trist) This means base damage vs base armor, ArPen > AD. Getting more AD while your opponent gets armor means very little. Get an IE on trist (4000gold) vs Omen(3500g) on a tank Thats +80 Damage vs +90 armor. So now its 185 damage vs 185armor well, guess what? According to graph ArPen > AD now too Now lets get a BF sword (1850) vs a Sunfire (2300) 235 damage vs 228 armor, again ArPen > AD... A carry will always have 50more damage than the tank has Armor (You get Omen + 4Sunfires, and the enemy carry will have IE + 3BTs, and will be like 100 damage higher than your armor is) ArPen > AD on Base stats... this means ArPen > AD runes simply through leveling up. Adding items skews the calcs even more | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On October 20 2010 03:55 Jazriel wrote: Is this the only real fix? Gogo Riot for making a game that requires a complete re-install just to patch. Yup this fix worked for me too. I even had the install files from a previous redownload of the client, and those didn't work. I had to completely redownload everything from the website for it to work. So even having an old "basic install" package will not work. You must get the new one from the website. Having to uninstall Adobe Air is completely ridiculous... Just be sure to uninstall Pando Media Booster as soon as the client works (like you can log in). It doesn't do anything except use your bandwidth to torrent files to other people. On October 20 2010 04:05 TheYango wrote: So, is there a reason that Riot decided to buff Rod of Ages when it's already the best start on a lot of casters? Not like I have a problem with getting it, it just feels weird that they'd buff an item that didn't seem like it needed the help. Though I guess the higher base stats and shorter time to cap means that it's easier to justify getting a 2nd one. + Show Spoiler + Ninja + Show Spoiler + Singed + Show Spoiler + buff + Show Spoiler + fuck yeah /edit - Wanted to get in on the AD vs. ARPen discussion. I don't think it would make sense for Riot to "replace" ARP with AD. Making one strictly superior over the other would just be stupid. They might as well have left it the way it was. The changes mean two things when you get down to it: 1. Characters that benefit from AD in other ways than just higher AD have another rune option. Champs like Akali and maybe Kayle and Jax can benefit from these. Other champs might have some kind of early kill strategy like Pantheon, though I think Panth is still gonna be better with ARP. ARP is still going to be the goto stat for runes in most cases, as was delightfully concisely explained above. 2. ARP got nerfed because of the strategic change to Last Whisper, most likely. However, when you get down to it, the nerf was fairly insignificant in terms of the math involved. I think they must have done some kind of analysis with certain champs (like Akali etc.) and tried to make the choice between ARP and AD pretty much 50/50. | ||
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Rice
United States1332 Posts
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Jazriel
Canada404 Posts
On October 20 2010 04:37 Insanious wrote: - Average champ armor is around 75 at 18 (69 on trist for example) - Average AD on an AD champ at 18 is around 110 (105 on trist) Source? | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
look at lol wiki and do the math. Average starting armor is between 8 and 20, and average armor gained per level is between 3 and 4.5. Average starting damage is 47-52, average damage per level is 2.5-3.5 | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 20 2010 04:53 Phrost wrote: look at lol wiki and do the math. Average starting armor is between 8 and 20, and average armor gained per level is between 3 and 4.5. Average starting damage is 47-52, average damage per level is 2.5-3.5 How does the math change if we assume that people will grab a Chainmail against characters with relevant physical damage? | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On October 20 2010 04:54 TheYango wrote: How does the math change if we assume that people will grab a Chainmail against characters with relevant physical damage? how does amummu move so fast while he's carrying all that armor around? It doesn't make sense too me, he is so small, yet so strong! Also, chainmail sucks, can you imagine being bashed in the arm with that stuff on and then having to yank that stuff out of your skin, ugh, i actually don't know how armor works in real combat situations, but that stuff just doesn't look easy to wear in to battle.. | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On October 20 2010 04:30 spinesheath wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 20 2010 03:51 Insanious wrote: So basically I've done the math on the new AD runes: Flat AD: From lvl 1 -> lvl 5 you get +1(well from +1 at lvl 1 to +0.3 at lvl 5) damage after armor compared to ArPen runes Scaling AD: From lvl 1 -> 9 you get from +7 -> +0.1 damage (+7 at lvl 1 -> +0.1 at lvl 9) for ArPen and then AD/lvl net you +7 damage at lvl 18 WITH NO ITEMS. With Items, you get +2AD at lvl 18. Basically ArPen > Flat AD ALWAYS, ARpen > Scaling AD as you would trade dmg dominance from lvl 1 -> 9 for +2 damage at lvl 18. (AD/lvl runes break even at lvl 17 if you have a BF sword) - - - - Additionally, Getting a BF sword with ArPen runes makes them > AD runes period until lvl 18 with AD/lvl runes. Getting BF sword + another dmg item (thats above 10 damage) makes you better with ArPen then any AD runes - - - - - On a side note, AD/lvl Marks + Quints = +40AD@18 (2.3dmg @ lvl 1, 11@5, 23@10) so running them on Akali could be very interesting, just saying. I wonder what stats you are assuming. AD and Armor values are different from champ to champ. You probably didn't consider Last Whisper. Did you think about Armor Pen/Reduction from items/ablities? You can't just say "X > Y" based on some calculation with values that you might as well have gotten from a random number generator as far as I can tell. I based my calcs on: Trist from 1 - 5 vs Trist from 1 - 5 with Dorans blade. Trist from 6+ with BF sword + Dorans Blade Trist at 18 +BF sword + Dorans blade Trist at 18 + IE + Dorans blade. Then I started doing Yi and found that ArPen > AD on yi at lvl 2 and never changes. (just Yi + Cloth armor + pots for jungling). If you get a dorans blade or a red or green pot then ArPen > AD runes on Yi at lvl 1. The I looked at the AD of champions and went: Anyone with more AD than Trist, Break even for AD runes vs ArPen runes is lvl 6, -1 lvl for every 3 AD difference. Anyone with less AD than Trist, break even for AD runes vs Arpen runes is lvl 6 +1 lvl for every 3AD difference. Then I looked at base armor on Champions. And Arpen > AD as long as armor is about 20 higher than damage. Then I looked at the Base as on Carries, and the Max Armor on enemy champs for 18 and found that for all carries AD > any ending armor value on champs who are not using skills (so no defense curl ball, or bulwark, etc...). THEN I applied my findings to a real game and came up with: - As long as you can farm with a carry, and get an IE + Dorans blade you will have more AD than enemy has armor for anyone that isn't stacking armor (as trist ends at around 180AD at this set up...) So for 4000g, your enemy would need to get 105Armor to counter (as average base is 75). Then I said to my self "What would someone likely have in game" and went with Omen + Cloth armor (or 108 armor). so you are short 17 armor, and difference is 200g between a tank and carry. - - - - - - - - - - - - - THEN I just went "wait a second"... Any Carry (trist damage or above so 48 base AD at lvl 1 with no items or masteries) (making her one of the lowest base damage carries in game...) With 21 in offence (+3 dmg and +5% offense). Will make her damage 53.5AD at lvl 1, vs 61.5AD at lvl 1. This means that even after lvl 1 armor Pen is better (brings enemy armor to 0, where AD runes trist has to deal with armor). Means from lvl1 on trist -> until she suddenly has 20 less AD than enemy has armor, ArPen runes > AD runes. - - - - - - As such, At any point in game: All Melee AD carries, and All Range carries with higher than 48 Base AD, ArPen > AD runes 100% of the time as long as you have points in offensive mastery. Without them... then break even moves from lvl 6 - 1 lvl for ever 3AD higher than 48, and +1 level for every 3 damage below 48. - - - - - - - - This means that for ALL champions, ArPen > AD at some point (break even usually does not pass lvl 8.) And that at any point in the game where you get an AD item (even doran's blade), then AD runes < ArPen runes. - - - - - - This means for all champs that do not stack armor, armor stackers you need to take farm vs farm, AD items vs AD items and specific champs... but even then, if you are vs 5 armor stacking enemies, you should have no problem having your team kill them with any casters, and you taking 0 damage. - - - - - - At this point, I would like to point out that I have yet to do the calculations with Last Whisper. Past that if the enemy has 200 Armor, you need LW + ArPen runes + 180 AD to do more damage than LW + AD Runes. Do not know the difference for lower than, or above 200 armor, nor the exact AD break even point. In my games, Most champions do not get past 150 armor (base + usually 1 Armor Item) Which means ArPen > AD vs any champ with 150 Armor as long as you have above 130 AD at this point (so for trist, thats lvl 18+masteries+dorans blade +8 damage from another source). | ||
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AtTheFuneral
United States137 Posts
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On October 20 2010 04:54 TheYango wrote: How does the math change if we assume that people will grab a Chainmail against characters with relevant physical damage? It doesnt? Base armor only changes with level. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 20 2010 05:01 Phrost wrote: It doesnt? Base armor only changes with level. Well armor pen is worth less against high-armor champs, so I figured that non-tanks getting a chain vest might change the balance between AD/ArP runes a bit, but Insanious seems to have addressed that case rather thoroughly above (e.g. by the time someone actually gets around to getting a chain vest, a carry will probably have enough AD items to make ArP better anyway). Any Carry (trist damage or above so 48 base AD at lvl 1 with no items or masteries) (making her one of the lowest base damage carries in game...) With 21 in offence (+3 dmg and +5% offense). Since when do people get 21 in offense?  | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On October 20 2010 04:54 TheYango wrote: How does the math change if we assume that people will grab a Chainmail against characters with relevant physical damage? Sorry if this is a double post But basically: Chain mail = 45 armor Base armor, lets assume is 75 = 120 armor. This means for any champion with less than 100 AD, they would need to get the AD runes, for any champion above 100AD they would need ArPen Runes for max Damage. At lvl 18, Trist has 108 AD Base. Asume Dorans blade +21 offense (+3AD, and +5% Base dmg, 6ArPen) ArPen > AD runes. AD runes 131.4*(1-(114/214))= 61.4 damage ArPen Runes 122.4*(1-(99/199)) = 61.5damage Meaning that Trist with dorans blade > Champ X with Chainmail. Getting more AD makes ArPen > AD (as ArPen scales with AD, where AD is just a flat amount). Now ArPen runes also synergize with ArPen items, as More ArPen > Less (going from 100 armor -> 75 (ghostblade) or 100armor -> 50 (arpen runes + ghostblade) makes a huge difference. from 50% reduction -> 43% reduction vs 50% reduction -> 33% reduction. Aka. 7% reduction vs 17% reduction. ArPen runes also Synergize with LW at HIGH armounts of enemy armor (200+). With LW + AD items + ArPen runes > LW + AD items + AD Runes. | ||
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AtTheFuneral
United States137 Posts
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
I wanted to make it easier to see just how strong ArPen is vs AD runes simply by getting Masteries and a Droan's blade since this means these are things you get from lvl1, and you do not have to back to get more items to start making ArPen runes > AD Runes. From lvl1, with Doran's blade and 21 in offense, ArPen runes > AD Runes. | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On October 20 2010 05:19 AtTheFuneral wrote: so does anyone actually know what caused the client error when updating for some people and not for some? I was thinking maybe it had to do with me using vista but that sounds dumb and were there only like 4 of us out of everyone on here with that problem? i have had 0 problems ever patching. I don't modify any files with skins or artwork so mine is just the base client. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Edit: On October 20 2010 05:22 Phrost wrote: 5% damage from offense only affects base damage and it sucks. Nobody goes more than 9 in offense ever. MAZINGA runs 21 offense ;p | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On October 20 2010 05:24 Southlight wrote: Skins/artwork don't break the client AFAIK, modifying stuff like recommended items, GUI, etc. break patching though. Edit: MAZINGA runs 21 offense ;p who dat? I ran 21 offense with trist for a while. Then I realized it wasnt as good as 21 utility because summoner skills are op. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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