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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On June 18 2010 13:57 Sadist wrote: hand checking was allowed back then. The game was much more physical. Jordan is much more mentally tough than Kobe. disagree, kobe is a once-in-a-decade tough competitor. physically and mentally. your claim that jordan is much more mentally tough than kobe has no basis | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:00 Kiarip wrote: Yeah, that's what I meant. Kobe, and MJ are a lot closer in terms of level of play than people who make the "tough physical hand-checking defense" argument believe. Kobe is done. He's been done for some time now, it's true that Jordan was playing way better at this age than Kobe, but it's not the age, but the mileage that counts a lot more. Jordan's career will obviously be remembered to be a lot greater, but let's not forget the circumstances during which it happened... In the beginning of his career he was getting trashed by the Pistons, no one really holds it against him, because the Pistons were great, and he was young. As the Pistons declined he was able to make the finals, and apart from his win against the Lakers against which his team had good match ups he beat up on the back-then weakish Western Conference in the finals, (not unlike how Kobe and Shaq beat up on the back-then weakish Eastern Conference in the finals,) the problem is when Kobe was approaching his prime (during the last two championships of his three-peat,) he was not running the team, and there was tension between him and Shaq, and Shaq was a very dominant force, and so the championships are mostly attributed to him. When Shaq was gone Kobe was finally allowed to take the reigns, and it took him a while to settle in. Then as he entered his overall-performance prime his team was terrible, and even though he was putting up record-breaking numbers, they were largely dismissed because at that time the Lakers weren't a contender. When he finally got Pau Gasol, the Celtics made a series of historic moves, and picked up as it turns out a lucky pick (in Rondo,) and they were able to suffocate the Lakers out of the finals, partially because of Bynum's injury. Now, that he's starting to win Championships again, he's already been running on all cylinders for 13 years, and people are again rightfully starting to doubt his impact (and righfully so,) especially when he plays against good physical defenses. He will still put up great numbers against weaker defensive teams like the Suns because of his skill, but he is no longer consistent against good defense, because he's way out of his prime. Overall my point is, his peak wasn't that much worse than Jordan's he just had it during a time when the Lakers couldn't make things happen, also Jordan came into the NBA as great powers were leaving, and he never really faced the other hyper-dominant player of his time - Hakeem Olajuawon in the finals. At the end of his career (not talking about the wizards,) his finals performances were against the Jazz against which had a defender on him that he had a significant size advantage on and yes Jordan made him look silly at the buzzer, and everyone will always remember this, and rightfully so because he was a great player, but he was also fortunate that he was facing his tougher opposition (while being both the first option, and having a good team,) while in his prime, and when he was slowly leaving his prime (second threepeat,) he was playing against considerably weaker teams defensively, this isn't quite the situation that Kobe is/was in, which is why I think that people should really compare the players' peaks, and career accomplishments separately. You act as if the west teams were scrubs rofl. Sonics, Suns, Jazz x2, Lakers, Blazers. None of those teams were even close to as weak as the Magic. If I remember correctly I think the Suns were favored to beat the bulls anyway and Im fairly certain there were plenty of people who thought the Sonics would win. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On June 18 2010 13:59 condoriano wrote: Kobe and Jordan comparison should go away for a few more years. This guy is nowhere close to Jordan, very doubtful he is even top 3 all time. jordan, magic, kobe. three greatest players of all time and kobe isn't done yet. but we can all believe what we want to make ourselves feel better | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:03 OneOther wrote: disagree, kobe is a once-in-a-decade tough competitor. physically and mentally. your claim that jordan is much more mentally tough than kobe has no basis Michael Jordan didnt quit on his team in a game 7. Hed never do that no matter how disgusted he was. Kobe Bryant quit vs the suns Period. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
awesome take that lakers | ||
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Miss_Cleo
United States406 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:05 Sadist wrote: Michael Jordan didnt quit on his team in a game 7. Hed never do that no matter how disgusted he was. Kobe Bryant quit vs the suns Period. Just wondering who your favorite team is and your favorite player. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:05 Sadist wrote: Michael Jordan didnt quit on his team in a game 7. Hed never do that no matter how disgusted he was. Kobe Bryant quit vs the suns Period. haha well i knew you were going to bring this up, but whether or not he quit in that game 7 is questionable. espn was talking about it the other day and those analysts didn't think he did. he was averaging a ridiculous number of points that series, and the lakers still were not winning. he took plenty of shots in the first half to lead his team. but they were down by quite a bit at halftime. i think it was chris weber who said kobe knew they wouldn't win if they were doing the same old kobe-shoots strategy, and he wanted to find different answers. i am not claiming that kobe quit or he didn't, but that one game (people have different opinions on it) doesn't taint the toughness kobe has displayed throughout his career, especially in the later stages. kobe's toughness is similar to jordan's. no doubt. that questinoable game doesn't mean shit in context of kobe's career. guy puts on a mummy cast on his shooting finger and averages 30 points throughout playoffs for god's sake. how many games has he played? how many playoff games? how many minutes has he spent on the basketball court? the way i see it, physical and mental toughness are closely related. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:04 Sadist wrote: You act as if the west teams were scrubs rofl. Sonics, Suns, Jazz x2, Lakers, Blazers. None of those teams were even close to as weak as the Magic. If I remember correctly I think the Suns were favored to beat the bulls anyway and Im fairly certain there were plenty of people who thought the Sonics would win. Jazz were roughly as good as the Magic I would say. Blazers weren't amazing. Suns were really good, but once again this was Jordan in his prime, and the Suns weren't super-dominant defensively. Lakers, like I said earlier were on the way out, had match up problems against the Bulls, and like with the other 2 teams this was Jordan's first three-peat, and his prime. Obviously Jordan wasn't going to be stopped in his prime... Second three-peat, Sonics weren't very good, but Jordan started to slow down a bit at this time, and he was guarded by Gary Payton, resulting in terrible shooting percentages. Jazz was a terrible match up for the Bulls. My argument is that during the time when Jordan was the complete unstoppable monster, he had a good team with him, he got to the finals, and he beat tough teams (Suns in particular, also the Lakers, and Blazers too.) Imo, if you put prime Kobe on the bulls instead of Jordan, they still win at least 2 out of those 3 series, because Kobe's peak was also really really good. If you put today's Kobe on the Bulls that played against the Jazz, then you will also get a similar result. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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city42
1656 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:00 Kiarip wrote: Yeah, that's what I meant. Kobe, and MJ are a lot closer in terms of level of play than people who make the "tough physical hand-checking defense" argument believe. Kobe is done. He's been done for some time now, it's true that Jordan was playing way better at this age than Kobe, but it's not the age, but the mileage that counts a lot more. Jordan's career will obviously be remembered to be a lot greater, but let's not forget the circumstances during which it happened... In the beginning of his career he was getting trashed by the Pistons, no one really holds it against him, because the Pistons were great, and he was young. As the Pistons declined he was able to make the finals, and apart from his win against the Lakers against which his team had good match ups he beat up on the back-then weakish Western Conference in the finals, (not unlike how Kobe and Shaq beat up on the back-then weakish Eastern Conference in the finals,) the problem is when Kobe was approaching his prime (during the last two championships of his three-peat,) he was not running the team, and there was tension between him and Shaq, and Shaq was a very dominant force, and so the championships are mostly attributed to him. When Shaq was gone Kobe was finally allowed to take the reigns, and it took him a while to settle in. Then as he entered his overall-performance prime his team was terrible, and even though he was putting up record-breaking numbers, they were largely dismissed because at that time the Lakers weren't a contender. When he finally got Pau Gasol, the Celtics made a series of historic moves, and picked up as it turns out a lucky pick (in Rondo,) and they were able to suffocate the Lakers out of the finals, partially because of Bynum's injury. Now, that he's starting to win Championships again, he's already been running on all cylinders for 13 years, and people are again rightfully starting to doubt his impact (and righfully so,) especially when he plays against good physical defenses. He will still put up great numbers against weaker defensive teams like the Suns because of his skill, but he is no longer consistent against good defense, because he's way out of his prime. Overall my point is, his peak wasn't that much worse than Jordan's he just had it during a time when the Lakers couldn't make things happen, also Jordan came into the NBA as great powers were leaving, and he never really faced the other hyper-dominant player of his time - Hakeem Olajuawon in the finals. At the end of his career (not talking about the wizards,) his finals performances were against the Jazz against which had a defender on him that he had a significant size advantage on and yes Jordan made him look silly at the buzzer, and everyone will always remember this, and rightfully so because he was a great player, but he was also fortunate that he was facing his tougher opposition (while being both the first option, and having a good team,) while in his prime, and when he was slowly leaving his prime (second threepeat,) he was playing against considerably weaker teams defensively, this isn't quite the situation that Kobe is/was in, which is why I think that people should really compare the players' peaks, and career accomplishments separately. edit: Just to continue a bit, and when you compare Kobe and Jordan in this manner, it becomes evident that although Jordan was better, Kobe is by far the second greatest shooting guard of all time (and probably first or tied with Jordan for the most skilled shooting guard,) and he's closer to Jordan overall than whoever you rate third is to him (once again, talking about shooting guards.) Trashed by the Pistons? Have you ever seen the 4 CHI-DET series? 1989 and 1990 were some of the closest and fiercely competitive series ever. Magic Johnson wasn't a hyper-dominant player in 1991 (first team all-NBA, best playoff effort since 1987)? '96 Sonics were a "weaker" defensive team?! They were by FAR the best defensive team he faced in the finals. My head nearly exploded reading all the garbage in here. The Kobe-Jordan comparisons are nonsense to begin with, so you need to bring some actual facts into the mix to form an argument on the issue. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
Ron's interview was the funniest thing I've ever heard live. | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:15 OneOther wrote: anyways i feel like im derailing the thread, but i just dno't see how ANYONE can question kobe's tougness and competitivenes. the guy is a warrior lol and certainly comparable to jordan in that aspect I didnt say he wasnt tough. Id say hes easily the toughest mentally of the current generation of players. I said his mental toughness wasnt in Jordan's league and it isnt. The only one comprable to MJ is Tiger. Tiger might even exceed him since golf is much more demanding and tolling mentally than basketball. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:31 Sadist wrote: I didnt say he wasnt tough. Id say hes easily the toughest mentally of the current generation of players. I said his mental toughness wasnt in Jordan's league and it isnt. The only one comprable to MJ is Tiger. Tiger might even exceed him since golf is much more demanding and tolling mentally than basketball. right, but in my opinion kobe is similar to jordan in terms of toughness and certainly in the same league. probably the two toughest to ever play. this is a subjective matter though and up to the individual's opinion. in my eyes, kobe and mj are similar, and kobe's toughness is much, much closer to mj's than how you are putting it. golf being a mentally tougher than basketball is another subjective matter and assumption that you can't prove, so i won't say anything about it. i am not quite sure how to respond to a claim that tiger may be tougher than jordan because golf is a more mentally than basketball. they aer both awesome :D | ||
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holy_war
United States3590 Posts
With #5, I think Kobe is now the greatest Laker of all time and can possibly be mentioned in the same sentence with Jordan, but no one will ever be as good as Jordan. | ||
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lenin
United States7 Posts
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Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:05 Sadist wrote: Michael Jordan didnt quit on his team in a game 7. Hed never do that no matter how disgusted he was. Kobe Bryant quit vs the suns Period.  | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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hasuprotoss
United States4681 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:04 OneOther wrote: jordan, magic, kobe. three greatest players of all time and kobe isn't done yet. but we can all believe what we want to make ourselves feel better You can't be serious. Where are the big men? | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
since when was there a requirement to have non-guards on my top list? i didn't pick them by position, the three greatest players just happen to be guards. following the three greatest: russell, bird, kareem, shaq, west, duncan, chamberlain, baylor etc... | ||
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hasuprotoss
United States4681 Posts
On June 18 2010 15:32 OneOther wrote: uh actually im dead serious since when was there a requirement to have non-guards on my top list? i didn't pick them by position, the three greatest players just happen to be guards. following the three greatest: russell, kareem, shaq, west, duncan, chamberlain, etc... Russell won ELEVEN championships. Kareem was a 19-time NBA all-star, leads the leauge in points all-time, he also had 6 MVPs. Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double over a SEASON. Kobe's first 3 championships came on the back of Shaq (sure he was a great player, but Shaq was easily the best player on those teams). | ||
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