NBA Playoffs 2010 - Page 184

On June 18 2010 13:57 Sadist wrote:



hand checking was allowed back then. The game was much more physical. Jordan is much more mentally tough than Kobe.

On June 18 2010 14:00 Kiarip wrote:



Yeah, that's what I meant. Kobe, and MJ are a lot closer in terms of level of play than people who make the "tough physical hand-checking defense" argument believe.


Kobe is done. He's been done for some time now, it's true that Jordan was playing way better at this age than Kobe, but it's not the age, but the mileage that counts a lot more.

Jordan's career will obviously be remembered to be a lot greater, but let's not forget the circumstances during which it happened... In the beginning of his career he was getting trashed by the Pistons, no one really holds it against him, because the Pistons were great, and he was young. As the Pistons declined he was able to make the finals, and apart from his win against the Lakers against which his team had good match ups he beat up on the back-then weakish Western Conference in the finals, (not unlike how Kobe and Shaq beat up on the back-then weakish Eastern Conference in the finals,) the problem is when Kobe was approaching his prime (during the last two championships of his three-peat,) he was not running the team, and there was tension between him and Shaq, and Shaq was a very dominant force, and so the championships are mostly attributed to him. When Shaq was gone Kobe was finally allowed to take the reigns, and it took him a while to settle in. Then as he entered his overall-performance prime his team was terrible, and even though he was putting up record-breaking numbers, they were largely dismissed because at that time the Lakers weren't a contender.

When he finally got Pau Gasol, the Celtics made a series of historic moves, and picked up as it turns out a lucky pick (in Rondo,) and they were able to suffocate the Lakers out of the finals, partially because of Bynum's injury. Now, that he's starting to win Championships again, he's already been running on all cylinders for 13 years, and people are again rightfully starting to doubt his impact (and righfully so,) especially when he plays against good physical defenses. He will still put up great numbers against weaker defensive teams like the Suns because of his skill, but he is no longer consistent against good defense, because he's way out of his prime.

Overall my point is, his peak wasn't that much worse than Jordan's he just had it during a time when the Lakers couldn't make things happen, also Jordan came into the NBA as great powers were leaving, and he never really faced the other hyper-dominant player of his time - Hakeem Olajuawon in the finals. At the end of his career (not talking about the wizards,) his finals performances were against the Jazz against which had a defender on him that he had a significant size advantage on and yes Jordan made him look silly at the buzzer, and everyone will always remember this, and rightfully so because he was a great player, but he was also fortunate that he was facing his tougher opposition (while being both the first option, and having a good team,) while in his prime, and when he was slowly leaving his prime (second threepeat,) he was playing against considerably weaker teams defensively, this isn't quite the situation that Kobe is/was in, which is why I think that people should really compare the players' peaks, and career accomplishments separately.

On June 18 2010 13:59 condoriano wrote:
Kobe and Jordan comparison should go away for a few more years. This guy is nowhere close to Jordan, very doubtful he is even top 3 all time.

On June 18 2010 14:03 OneOther wrote:

disagree, kobe is a once-in-a-decade tough competitor. physically and mentally. your claim that jordan is much more mentally tough than kobe has no basis

On June 18 2010 14:05 Sadist wrote:



Michael Jordan didnt quit on his team in a game 7. Hed never do that no matter how disgusted he was.

Kobe Bryant quit vs the suns Period.

On June 18 2010 14:05 Sadist wrote:



Michael Jordan didnt quit on his team in a game 7. Hed never do that no matter how disgusted he was.

Kobe Bryant quit vs the suns Period.

On June 18 2010 14:04 Sadist wrote:


You act as if the west teams were scrubs rofl. Sonics, Suns, Jazz x2, Lakers, Blazers. None of those teams were even close to as weak as the Magic. If I remember correctly I think the Suns were favored to beat the bulls anyway and Im fairly certain there were plenty of people who thought the Sonics would win.

On June 18 2010 14:00 Kiarip wrote:



Yeah, that's what I meant. Kobe, and MJ are a lot closer in terms of level of play than people who make the "tough physical hand-checking defense" argument believe.


Kobe is done. He's been done for some time now, it's true that Jordan was playing way better at this age than Kobe, but it's not the age, but the mileage that counts a lot more.

Jordan's career will obviously be remembered to be a lot greater, but let's not forget the circumstances during which it happened... In the beginning of his career he was getting trashed by the Pistons, no one really holds it against him, because the Pistons were great, and he was young. As the Pistons declined he was able to make the finals, and apart from his win against the Lakers against which his team had good match ups he beat up on the back-then weakish Western Conference in the finals, (not unlike how Kobe and Shaq beat up on the back-then weakish Eastern Conference in the finals,) the problem is when Kobe was approaching his prime (during the last two championships of his three-peat,) he was not running the team, and there was tension between him and Shaq, and Shaq was a very dominant force, and so the championships are mostly attributed to him. When Shaq was gone Kobe was finally allowed to take the reigns, and it took him a while to settle in. Then as he entered his overall-performance prime his team was terrible, and even though he was putting up record-breaking numbers, they were largely dismissed because at that time the Lakers weren't a contender.

When he finally got Pau Gasol, the Celtics made a series of historic moves, and picked up as it turns out a lucky pick (in Rondo,) and they were able to suffocate the Lakers out of the finals, partially because of Bynum's injury. Now, that he's starting to win Championships again, he's already been running on all cylinders for 13 years, and people are again rightfully starting to doubt his impact (and righfully so,) especially when he plays against good physical defenses. He will still put up great numbers against weaker defensive teams like the Suns because of his skill, but he is no longer consistent against good defense, because he's way out of his prime.

Overall my point is, his peak wasn't that much worse than Jordan's he just had it during a time when the Lakers couldn't make things happen, also Jordan came into the NBA as great powers were leaving, and he never really faced the other hyper-dominant player of his time - Hakeem Olajuawon in the finals. At the end of his career (not talking about the wizards,) his finals performances were against the Jazz against which had a defender on him that he had a significant size advantage on and yes Jordan made him look silly at the buzzer, and everyone will always remember this, and rightfully so because he was a great player, but he was also fortunate that he was facing his tougher opposition (while being both the first option, and having a good team,) while in his prime, and when he was slowly leaving his prime (second threepeat,) he was playing against considerably weaker teams defensively, this isn't quite the situation that Kobe is/was in, which is why I think that people should really compare the players' peaks, and career accomplishments separately.


edit: Just to continue a bit, and when you compare Kobe and Jordan in this manner, it becomes evident that although Jordan was better, Kobe is by far the second greatest shooting guard of all time (and probably first or tied with Jordan for the most skilled shooting guard,) and he's closer to Jordan overall than whoever you rate third is to him (once again, talking about shooting guards.)

On June 18 2010 14:15 OneOther wrote:
anyways i feel like im derailing the thread, but i just dno't see how ANYONE can question kobe's tougness and competitivenes. the guy is a warrior lol and certainly comparable to jordan in that aspect

On June 18 2010 14:31 Sadist wrote:



I didnt say he wasnt tough. Id say hes easily the toughest mentally of the current generation of players. I said his mental toughness wasnt in Jordan's league and it isnt.

The only one comprable to MJ is Tiger. Tiger might even exceed him since golf is much more demanding and tolling mentally than basketball.

On June 18 2010 14:05 Sadist wrote:



Michael Jordan didnt quit on his team in a game 7. Hed never do that no matter how disgusted he was.

Kobe Bryant quit vs the suns Period.

On June 18 2010 14:04 OneOther wrote:

jordan, magic, kobe. three greatest players of all time and kobe isn't done yet. but we can all believe what we want to make ourselves feel better

On June 18 2010 15:32 OneOther wrote:
uh actually im dead serious

since when was there a requirement to have non-guards on my top list? i didn't pick them by position, the three greatest players just happen to be guards.

following the three greatest: russell, kareem, shaq, west, duncan, chamberlain, etc...