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Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
March 01 2010 20:32 GMT
#1481
Yeah, I don't think I'd go as far as Locust ranking him #1 overall (yet), but he's insane. He can actually count as a primary tank, but I don't think his stun is reliable enough to make him a primary initiator - stick him with like Alistar though and you've got a wtf tanking duo. You HAVE to do something about him because he'll tear through your team in no time, and the less people you have the less likely you are to actually kill him, but the more people you attack him with the more likely he is to shoot you with a big AoE stun... and ofc you've got the rest of his team to deal with.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
March 01 2010 20:52 GMT
#1482
the real problem is the people that played jax before this and were already decent with him (most notable player being big mclarge huge)

ive seen jax either do completely terrible or dominate since he is flavor of the month and a lot of scrubs are trying to play him and failing miserably.

AP jax is still the way to go imo...here's the build

ninja tabi or merc tread if they are heavy heavy CC

guinsoo's

mejai's

abysmal sceptre

lich bane

rylai's

you'll notice that you now have heavy MR, as the thing that counters you is casters. you dont need any armor really because you lol @ dps, this build works...cleanse/flash or ghost/cleanse
Brees on in
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
March 01 2010 20:59 GMT
#1483
Honestly, either works at this point, and I'm sure one's more efficient than the other (ala Katarina, when she was still okay), and I don't know which.

And I agree, I've seen a lot of terrible Jax, just as I saw some decent ones pre-buff. But most of the pre-buff Jaxes I saw were either AP or tank, now you can do anything and everything, heh.

It still doesn't change the fact that once Jax goes in, he cannot go out (for a while), so a Jax playing overaggressive will die fast and cost his team the win, and I see this happen a lot. I was guilty of it too, when I tried replacing Udyr with Jax.
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Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
March 01 2010 21:03 GMT
#1484
really? I was under the impression that you should go attack damage with him... I've tried AP builds before and while they always seem to burst nicely, they don't seem to have the staying power of AD builds. With the considerable amount of extra health, I just assumed the build with more staying power would be the way to go, though I do see the awesomeness of mejai's with the new passive (it basically doubles up as a leviathan).
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
March 01 2010 21:09 GMT
#1485
the metagame is AoE and burst, hopefully that answers your question

to use him to his full potential you have to jump into their entire team and get off AoE stuns, if you dont think they are going to focus your ass asap then your opponents are braindead. get in there, burst, cleanse and jump/flash out, or if they dont focus you, lol as you get a triple kill and 6 stacks.
Brees on in
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
March 01 2010 21:11 GMT
#1486
Well before the problem was you couldn't go attack damage - too expensive, and none of them (save frozen) double as survival. Flip side, if you go survival you get no damage. Thus why he was like a worse version of Udyr - in both cases you get like one damage item, and the rest is tank, if you opt to tank. AP on the other hand works well with both heroes, because all their skills rely on it - Udyr you can't really go AP because he auto-tanks due to his hero design (run up + bash). Jax had leap and massive burst from Empower, so you'd go AP, charge, leap, hit, stun, and every 4 hits your ult does crazy damage. Flip side is, on top of getting damage and some decent survival (MR), you're not as reliant on attack speed, so you can go with AP + survival. If you go damage you need to get damage + attack speed + survival, which is pretty brutish.

Now, you kinda can, so it's up for grabs if there's a "more efficient" way to do things. AP might still be it (esp now you get HP), or damage might be more efficient. I don't feel like doing a cost efficiency study on items on him though. So I'll wait to see if a meta evolves, or he gets nerfed.
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Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
March 01 2010 21:28 GMT
#1487
I think I remember hearing some buzz on leagueoflegends.com that he was going to be nerfed.

his ult triggers every 3 hits, not every 4 and it seemed to be that he needed AS back in the day with AP builds especially to ensure that you were making the most of ults (otherwise the best you could do was proc your ult on creeps and then get one guaranteed ult trigger when you jumped in). Now from what I'm reading, gunisoo's gives you all the AS you need because of your ability to actually last up until the point where your ult stacks take care of it just fine for you. The two big pros to AP Jax as I start really thinking about it are:

1. mejai's is potentially the most cost-effective boost to him with a potential +200 AP and +600 HP for just over 1K.
2. there are legitimately good AP items that double as magic resist items (abyssal scepter and lich's bane), whereas there's only one item that gives both magic resist and attack damage (aegis of the legion) and it's not efficient or good on Jax.

On the flip side, AD seems to offer better sustained damage output, lets you use phage (great midgame item on him IMO) and gives you lifesteal (which coupled with the sustained damage output, seems to be very nice for survivability). However, it seems to me that you desperately need banshee's veil with attack damage to fill the magic resist requirement for actually surviving with him and the fact that you need this detour is leading me to believe that, in theory at least, AP is a more efficient build.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 21:55:26
March 01 2010 21:54 GMT
#1488
His HP-gain is enough that you only need minimal (if at all) MR boost on top of the 85 you get from treads + base, 91 if you (as you should) get the mastery. Is what I've seen anyways.

On an unrelated note, I got a bloodline champions closed beta invite today, like 4 months after I registered, and three days before Fantasy Earth Zero first open beta. Odd timing.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
March 02 2010 05:38 GMT
#1489
LiquidParty practice fun! Baikin had to go and d/c though...
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
March 02 2010 05:41 GMT
#1490
Yeah we won anyways, who needs that useless chump.

Rawr.

DPS/Jungle Rammus ftw hey?
And another sorry for the accidentally-good-hero setup in that 3v3. We felt so bad after we realized we'd randomly picked something good
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Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
March 02 2010 06:17 GMT
#1491
Lol I don't care They're practice for a reason. MUNDO DPS KING LEVELS 1-5!
Gotta love our team comp tho :D
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
March 02 2010 06:20 GMT
#1492
Yeah, contrary to how the results may have turned out, Turkey isn't very good at Shaco (he usually loses in normal games) and was dicking around with an impromptu AP build, whereas Baikin thinks Zilean sucks. It just turned out to be an astonishingly good setup on that map, I guess.
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Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
March 02 2010 06:39 GMT
#1493
AP sion is unstoppable on twisted, nuke stun for 2 seconds every 6 seconds and he only gets stronger as the game goes on..christ...not to mention less people to burst down his shield meaning he actually does something.

blitzcrank/sion/kassadin is pretty neat on that map. tons of burst and CC and all good 1v1ers.
Brees on in
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
March 02 2010 06:46 GMT
#1494
Yeah our "serious" 3v3 setup is something like Blitz/Kass/Eve.
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Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
March 02 2010 11:07 GMT
#1495
anyone else noticed that the word "beastial" is censored for some obscure reason ?
In the woods, there lurks..
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
March 02 2010 15:48 GMT
#1496
They FINALLY granted us the UFO Corki on the European Server. It´s UFO hunting season, Corki vs. Corki solomid all week go!
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
March 02 2010 16:49 GMT
#1497
Anyone here play nidalee? I want a more carryish hero to play mid than Sivir sometimes, and I'm kinda interested in picking Nidalee up and wanted to get some tips on how you're supposed to build and play her.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-02 17:59:47
March 02 2010 17:42 GMT
#1498
I play her AP, especially with the nerf to EC. I open Sheen, then go Lichbane and then GRB, or Lichbane into tanky items if I'm needed to soft-tank. She's a pure burst damage character, but the biggest thing with her is knowing when to switch back and forth. Too many crappy Nids I see fail to break out of panther formation mid-fight. Personally I'm a fan of switching forms every cooldown; Panther to open, w(jump), attack, e, attack, q, attack, switch, heal, attack trap, attack jav (if damage is worth it), attack, switch, repeat. Especially if you build AP, you'll heal like 500+ on top of the 60%? attack speed buff.

I've also seen some people go damage on her, but I don't feel it's worth it. The panther skills all use AP, as does her heal, I believe the trap does as well, and possibly the Jav (I hardly use it so I never cared to notice). Which means if you go mass AP with Lich you're outputting more damage than you would with damage, I think.

If you're confident with survival you can get Mejai ofc, but I prefer rushing Lichbane, at which point it's too late to rock Mejai usually. Maybe you can go Sheen into Mejai into Lich, though.

(Incidentally I usually follow GRB with Rylai, but that's because I like having HP on a melee hero whether I'm tanking or not. Sometimes I'll go Rylai pre-GRB if I need the HP faster. If you're crushing the enemy you can probably rush Zhonya or something, though.)

Edit:
Oh, skills.
Um, I usually open trap, heal, heal, jav, heal, ult, heal, trap, heal. Biggest thing is surviving until level 6, and Sapphire Crystal + her heal = ridiculous staying power. And ofc level 1 trap is always nice for trapping bushes before the match starts, and such. If you think you'll open combat from the start though, heal is better, obviously. I just don't play that aggressive with her o/

Edit2:
If you're really confident with Javelin you can raise that instead of Trap though. I go Leap instead because I think the Q skill is strong even without leveling past 1, and I'm definitely nowhere near as Javelin-happy as some Nidalees I've seen. It's a great harassing skill in siege warfare though (5v5 at mid with your team needed to break/defend a tower) as well as a tower dive finisher (w, e, q, then switch and jav to finish). That's all playstyle.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-02 18:09:06
March 02 2010 18:03 GMT
#1499
hmmm, I typically see builds that go Trinity instead of lich bane, then transition into either soft tanking or stacking damage items. I'm not sure which is more efficient but at least in the midling elo ranges (where I assume I sit as a 30 with just over 50% win rate), I always see trinity force as a core item for her... she has AP growth on just about all of her abilities, but the ratios seem a little low:

jav toss: 0.4
bushwhack (trap): 0.4
pounce: 0.4
primal surge (heal): 0.8
swipe: 0.2

How do her CDs work when she transforms? Assuming they don't do any sort of reset, it seems like staying a cougar as long as you can is best since it gives you much lower CDs for ability spam with whichever upgraded sheen you decided to get.

EDIT: also, as I'm looking at guides and stuff, it looks like her cougar abilities all just scale with your cougar level instead of with the specific skill's level, is that the way it is? (e.x. level 11, one point in q, three points in w, five points in e, 2 points in r, do all of the cougar abilities count as level 2 cougar abilities or do they scale some other way?)

EDIT 2: GBR, really? I only ever see that on Jax, though I guess it makes sense on Nid with her sorta hybridish nature. I dunno, just seems like there are probably more efficient items to spend your cash on.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-02 18:22:18
March 02 2010 18:18 GMT
#1500
Yes, I see lots of Trin Force, too. My point is that I don't agree with that build. I used to TF cuz I saw everyone do it, but now I LB instead.

The damage output with simply TF or LB is probably relatively similar. However with Nidalee you'll often find you don't actually attack very often - it's actually pretty easy to forget to attack when you're in panther mode, because your skills chain together very seamlessly. I believe skills reset upon changing forms. I've not checked, but I don't remember being recharge-blocked, ever.

In other words, the only time you're really pure auto-attacking is when you're out of skills due to RC. That's maybe 1-2 seconds per form, as cooldown on every skill is like 6+, which is longer than the current form. Obviously if you want to output pure damage you stay on panther for like that extra second or two. It's not a rule of thumb to switch back and forth. But a lot of Nids don't switch when they should. I almost always switch every chance I get, because Surge gives heal AND attack speed. Skills recharge between forms, by the way (actually I think; I'm not sure, but I've never been rc-blocked), so if you use WEQ panther and then switch, you'll have all three skills available, for an instant heal, trap, jav. Assuming you start out with one item, TF or LB, the difference is that TF gives you a bit more HP and a snare effect. It also does less + damage than LB, particularly with the TF/Sheen nerf. In turn, LB gives you more damage, boosts every skill you have, and gives you magic resistance.

Follow LB with GRB, which you should have perma-8'd (it's free to maintain on Nidalee, and you have to be god-awful to ever lose perma-8) and you get 30 autoattack damage and 80 AP, which buffs every skill and gives you a stronger LB proc, and IMO you get a stronger two-item burst damage combo than anything else for Nidalee... as well as a very good Heal.

Edit1: I'm actually not sure, I never noticed O_O; I know base damage from skills scales with her ult. If that's the case then maybe you're better off improving Jav > Trap unless you're consistent with debuffing attacks.

GRB, because she's perma-8. So it's like 2500? gold for 30 damage, 80 AP, and 30% attack speed.
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