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On February 18 2010 14:36 mptj wrote:
I agree, Karthus is just sooo fun to play, but the fiddlesticks is hard because to get a lot of AP ypu almost certainly need soulsteal, but to get kills in teamfights, you willl almost assuredly die.
No way, in a teamfight your game is to channel your ult so that you flash in when the fight starts and immediately dark wind to silence everyone. Your whole team should be right behind you focusing someone and their carry will probably run if he's not focusing you--either way you fear him--then you drain anyone still attacking while they stun/focus him. A good fiddlesticks is probably the hardest thing to deal with in LOL, his team silence for two seconds plus AoE chase ult and a built-in fear makes him by far the best caster in the game.
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On February 18 2010 09:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 09:30 mptj wrote:
hey, im jw, are there any melee DPS charcters that are viable besides nasus? cuz I got some love for the melee DPS ers of this game but they all seem to be terrible at a higher level I feel like sion is, but I'm probably not at a super high ELO. And you should be playing him AP anyway :D.
I played Sion today at a high level ELO. Sheen/Merc boots/Malady/Banshee veil/Inf Edge. Got raped with 3700 hp by a Ryze/Tristana combo instantly several times. He just doesn't cut it  . Third tier tank at best. It's too easy to get away from Sion, and he's nowhere near tanky enough to actually stay in a fight to use his ult.
AP Sion is better at single target damage, but still, there are a lot better nukers out there like AP shaco/Karthus/etc. Just no reason to go him when there are heroes that can do same thing but better. Ryze does what AP Sion does without hardly any gear :-\.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 18 2010 15:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
No way, in a teamfight your game is to channel your ult so that you flash in when the fight starts and immediately dark wind to silence everyone. Your whole team should be right behind you focusing someone and their carry will probably run if he's not focusing you--either way you fear him--then you drain anyone still attacking while they stun/focus him. A good fiddlesticks is probably the hardest thing to deal with in LOL, his team silence for two seconds plus AoE chase ult and a built-in fear makes him by far the best caster in the game.
Well, there's CM, but I guess he's not a caster in the same sense as Fiddle/Annie/Karthus.
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RawR :D I am iFightBears on LoL  hope to play with you guys soon
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On February 18 2010 15:32 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 09:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On February 18 2010 09:30 mptj wrote:
hey, im jw, are there any melee DPS charcters that are viable besides nasus? cuz I got some love for the melee DPS ers of this game but they all seem to be terrible at a higher level I feel like sion is, but I'm probably not at a super high ELO. And you should be playing him AP anyway :D. I played Sion today at a high level ELO. Sheen/Merc boots/Malady/Banshee veil/Inf Edge. Got raped with 3700 hp by a Ryze/Tristana combo instantly several times. He just doesn't cut it . Third tier tank at best. It's too easy to get away from Sion, and he's nowhere near tanky enough to actually stay in a fight to use his ult. AP Sion is better at single target damage, but still, there are a lot better nukers out there like AP shaco/Karthus/etc. Just no reason to go him when there are heroes that can do same thing but better. Ryze does what AP Sion does without hardly any gear :-\.
You get Sheen, Malady and Inf. Edge and complain that he is a bad Tank?
His ult is for the Teamheal, like Tarics, don´t confuse Lifesteal with Tankyness.
Melee DPS ALWAYS has problems staying close to their Targets thats why AP Sion is more popular. As such Sion is the most DURABLE Nuker in the Game, A Ryze simply isn´t able to offtank like AP Sion can.
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On Sion as a tank: his survivability is fine compared to other tanks. All tanks can fall victim to CC+DPS; it's not like they're built to be immortal. They don't come with Spell Shield or Black Shield. In fact, two superior tanks, Malphite and Amumu, don't even have shields like Sion does.
Their edge over him is initiation, read AoE CC. A tank's role is not to magically grab aggro, it is to disable a large portion of the enemy team, opening the way for Tibbers, Crowstorm, Ricochet or what have you to ruin their day. Tanks low on the tier list aren't low because they're easier to kill if focused, they're low because they bring less utility to the overall fight, thus giving the enemy team more room to throw spells at them. Let's look at them:
Tier 1: Alistar: AoE Stun, Knockback, Heal
Tier 2: Malphite: AoE Stun, Move Slow, Atk Slow ; Nasus: Move/Atk Slow, AoE Armor Redux ; Taric: AoE Buff, AoE Armor Redux, Stun, Heal
Tier 3: Amumu: AoE Root, Stun ; Kayle: Move Slow, Invuln ; Blitzcrank: Grab, Stun
Tier 4: Rammus: AoE Slow, Taunt ; Cho'Gath: AoE Silence, Delayed Pop-up
Tier 5: Nunu: Slow ; Sion: Stun ; Singed: Pop-up
Fairly Worthless: Mundo: Slow ; Udyr: Stun ; Gragas: AoE Knockaway
Which champions are mainly tanks is debatable since some can be built more for damage or support, but the key trend is that higher tier tanks give more team utility.
I don't mean to eschew the importance of survivability of course. Survivability and CD redux result in even more utility, which is always good. Survivability by itself, though, is worthless. A Dr. Mundo with 10k gold in pure survivability items may be hard to kill, but he does nothing to keep his team from getting wiped.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
there's nothing more fun then completely shutting down a fiddlesticks. I was playing jax(lol) and just made it my job to plant wards at every possible location he could crowstorm and be constantly looking for him. he only got to crowstorm twice all game and one was to clear minions raping their nexus towers rofl
btw jax is getting buffed next patch so thats cool. rod of ages/ninja tabi/rageblade is the current build im running on him, after that it depends
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
mundoisnotatankmundoisnotatank
mundo is not a tank ive seen some insanely good mundos carry teams.
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Mundo is a horrible tank, especially because of Exec turning his ult into -25 +25 (=0).
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It's also because Nasus' ult gets countered by Exec's calling, so over-reliance on it for survival leads to a very quick death 
And his damage output from his ult + sheen is good enough.
Also Udyr isn't really a tank, he's more on the line of Nasus being a split DPS/soft tank. Like Nasus you need minimal items to do damage, which means once you complete your one or two items (primarily malady + phage) you just spam tank items (GA etc.), but he'll never compete with a pure tank. He tends to take the slot of TF, in that he gives you tremendous map control, the ability to gank down from pretty early levels, gives you a jungler (and thus decent aura control), and then transitions into a soft tank. Both heroes are usually better off in tandem with a true initiating tank, as they serve as a backup tank/backup DPSer. (TF so godly atm that you need a lot of conditions to be met to bring Udyr over him though - when TF gets reworked we'll see what happens)
Or in my case I tend to get forced to be primary tank 'cause I play with a Blitzcrank, but that's a different story.
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On February 18 2010 20:16 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 15:32 StorkHwaiting wrote:On February 18 2010 09:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On February 18 2010 09:30 mptj wrote:
hey, im jw, are there any melee DPS charcters that are viable besides nasus? cuz I got some love for the melee DPS ers of this game but they all seem to be terrible at a higher level I feel like sion is, but I'm probably not at a super high ELO. And you should be playing him AP anyway :D. I played Sion today at a high level ELO. Sheen/Merc boots/Malady/Banshee veil/Inf Edge. Got raped with 3700 hp by a Ryze/Tristana combo instantly several times. He just doesn't cut it . Third tier tank at best. It's too easy to get away from Sion, and he's nowhere near tanky enough to actually stay in a fight to use his ult. AP Sion is better at single target damage, but still, there are a lot better nukers out there like AP shaco/Karthus/etc. Just no reason to go him when there are heroes that can do same thing but better. Ryze does what AP Sion does without hardly any gear :-\. You get Sheen, Malady and Inf. Edge and complain that he is a bad Tank? His ult is for the Teamheal, like Tarics, don´t confuse Lifesteal with Tankyness. Melee DPS ALWAYS has problems staying close to their Targets thats why AP Sion is more popular. As such Sion is the most DURABLE Nuker in the Game, A Ryze simply isn´t able to offtank like AP Sion can.
I'm sorry but why do you post when you're not even going to use basic reading comprehension to form a response? mptj asked what melee DPSers are viable. I answered by saying I went a melee DPS Sion with banshee veil and a serious amount of tanky hp and still got raped.
You respond by listing half the items I had (conveniently excluding the banshee veil and merc treads) and then conclude with an idiotic analysis like "complain that he is a bad tank????" Please don't bother talking to people if you're not going to take the time to read what they wrote.
Nobody asked about a nuker. Nobody asked how good of a Tank sion is. mptj asked how viable a melee DPS sion is. I told him that even with a good amount of hp and tanking gear and lifesteal, it still wasn't viable. Get over your need to correct people as soon as you think they've said something wrong. Chances are, it's your reading comprehension that's wrong, not the other person.
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On February 19 2010 02:26 Southlight wrote:It's also because Nasus' ult gets countered by Exec's calling, so over-reliance on it for survival leads to a very quick death And his damage output from his ult + sheen is good enough. Also Udyr isn't really a tank, he's more on the line of Nasus being a split DPS/soft tank. Like Nasus you need minimal items to do damage, which means once you complete your one or two items (primarily malady + phage) you just spam tank items (GA etc.), but he'll never compete with a pure tank. He tends to take the slot of TF, in that he gives you tremendous map control, the ability to gank down from pretty early levels, gives you a jungler (and thus decent aura control), and then transitions into a soft tank. Both heroes are usually better off in tandem with a true initiating tank, as they serve as a backup tank/backup DPSer. (TF so godly atm that you need a lot of conditions to be met to bring Udyr over him though - when TF gets reworked we'll see what happens) Or in my case I tend to get forced to be primary tank 'cause I play with a Blitzcrank, but that's a different story.
Think you mean Nasus' passive 20% lifesteal. Nasus ult gives +hp, +attack damage, and an aoe lifedrain aura. It doesn't heal Nasus at all. Exec has zero effect on it. It doesn't reduce Nasus' lifedrain aura, only the heal he gets on melee attack. The ult AOE will do as much damage as it always does.
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Mundo tanks like Ryze bursts: Mehishly and far worse than a true tank.
He makes a good off-tank, though. Of course, you're better off playing Sion, Nasus, or (especially) Udyr if you want a melee DPS/tank.
(join LiquidParty!)
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Rammus is good funsies, but Alistar > all when it comes to tanks (even though I find him boring as hell).
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Banshee and Merc gives 0 armor, which means you're taking almost full damage from DPS heroes, especially if they have armor reduc/pen.
Alistar > all because of his aoe stun, his punt, and the fact that his ult makes him the best tank even without items
So annoying to play against, le sigh.
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yea, Alistar is really high on the list on annoying enemies.
speaking of which... Twisted Fate is so stupid... I dunno what they were thinking when they made that character... when is he getting nerfed/reworked?
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He's getting a slight nerf in the next patch. I thought they were gonna rework him? ;\
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
the only thing broke about tf is his ability to farm a lane and then join a teamfight whenever he feels like it. besides that I think he is just a counter to aggressive dumbasses.
typical scenario: TF reaches lvl 6 and has upgraded his saph crystal to sheen. one of the side lanes is pushed out way far or engages a fight. TF gates in, double kill.
if people werent dumb this would never happen. personally I cant remember the last time ive died to tf gating in because I am always aware of when his ult is up, so you just have to play more cautious with him around really. if he doesnt get mejai stacks he is squishy and goes down before he can do much.
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EPT
