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On February 17 2010 16:43 Baikinman wrote:
So i looked up on AP runes
If i get only AP on all my rune page i get
34.38AP from the start
or
(gain AP per level) 83.16AP at level 18
level 6 is when the AP becomes 34
Which one is better in your opinion? they are both the same price.
Per level of course... you'll get to level 6 very fast and from then on it's all improvement.
However, most people (including myself) seem to prefer spell penetration runes because AP rarely scales with your abilities at a 1:1 ratio whereas spell penetration doesn't get scaled down.
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On February 17 2010 12:17 Gao Xi wrote:
MasterYi looks really fun, hitting shit with crazy high attack speed an crits.
Karthus is like super sick imo
They're both pretty useless champions.
Master Yi is absolutely awful. He has 0 CC and almost no AOE, which are the two most important elements with the current metagame due to the game falling into 5 man roaming gank/push squads once mid/late game rolls around. He also has no defensive mechanisms, so in a 5v5 team fight when everyone targets him due to his high damage he will just die instantly.
Karthus's ult is nice to finish off enemies that barely get away, but other than that he has no CC and his AoE isn't very useful due to not being able to do it from range. If you actually get enough AP to do damage everyone will target you immediately which doesn't work well for you when you have to get basically in melee range of their team to be doing damage to them with your aoe.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
karthus is pretty damn good in my opinion, im 20-3 with him most played( i play a lot of champs though) and I play at pretty high elo.
if you dont get solo mid though, dont bother playing him. then he really is useless. the whole point of playing him is to deny their mid last hits since hes devastating early game and pretty much the strongest solo laner if you have aim unless your facing cho'gath/sion or soemthing. also by the time you get lvl 2 of your ult you will massively out level everyone to the point where your ult is doing 1/3 of their HP. I usually build him pretty tanky/support-ish.
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On February 18 2010 00:46 Brees wrote:
karthus is pretty damn good in my opinion, im 20-3 with him most played( i play a lot of champs though) and I play at pretty high elo.
if you dont get solo mid though, dont bother playing him. then he really is useless. the whole point of playing him is to deny their mid last hits since hes devastating early game and pretty much the strongest solo laner if you have aim unless your facing cho'gath/sion or soemthing. also by the time you get lvl 2 of your ult you will massively out level everyone to the point where your ult is doing 1/3 of their HP. I usually build him pretty tanky/support-ish.
First off, what makes you think you're playing at high elo... you can't see your own elo.
Secondly, personally I've never lost to a Karthus mid (playing Anivia). He is squishy and has no defensive or CC ability. This allows me to completely shut him down while all he can do is slow me (which doesn't really help you when I can slow+stun you as well). I can't imagine how hard a Fiddlesticks would own a Karthus with all of Fiddle's CC and survivability. Fiddle will silence you and you won't be able to do anything. Even after the silence wears off you can't stop him from draining you except by running away since you have no CC. I can just imagine him killing you and then you use your ult to kill him, except that he's draining a minion so he has enough health to not die by the time the cast finishes anyways. Karthus is VERY far from the strongest solo mid in the game.
Thirdly, his ult becomes almost completely useless once the enemy team wisens up enough to get a banshee's veil. Thus rank 1 is useful but rank 2 ends up being useless because most people will have built a banshee's by that point and you won't do any damage. You could try to time it so that you do it in the middle of a team fight instead of at the end or start, except that you'll most likely just get interrupted.
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play karthus+ryze on a lane. its so sick ...
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I think you're at a decent Elo if you start seeing the same names over and over again.
Karth is pretty good but unfortunately he's trumped by Fiddle simply because Fiddle has a free teleport and two CC skills. But if you don't like the 2 sec cast time from Fiddle Karth is a decent alternative, because he has Fiddle's ult essentially on toggle. His ult is honestly his worst skill.
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Fiddlesticks is basically an infested terran. In team fights, he rolls in with crowstorm, does a crapton of damage, and then usually dies pretty damn quickly.
Once his ult is over, no one really expects him to survive team battles.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
well im 65 wins over 50/50 atm and I see a lot of names from the old top 500 list. So I guess I assumed.
also karthus is far from squishy with good runes. I start with like 700hp at lvl 1 with doran ring so...yea not very squishy
not gonna argue but im just laying down what ive done with him. If you want to type his hard counters out and then say he sucks be my guest.
fiddlesticks against a team that uses wards or has a trap-like character (teemo, shaco, nidalee, etc) is also bad, does that mean he's a bad character?
P.S. silence affects karthus the least out of all casters since his main skill is toggled, and wall is on a high enough CD that you will only be using it once.
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On February 17 2010 19:14 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 16:43 Baikinman wrote:
So i looked up on AP runes
If i get only AP on all my rune page i get
34.38AP from the start
or
(gain AP per level) 83.16AP at level 18
level 6 is when the AP becomes 34
Which one is better in your opinion? they are both the same price.
Per level of course... you'll get to level 6 very fast and from then on it's all improvement. However, most people (including myself) seem to prefer spell penetration runes because AP rarely scales with your abilities at a 1:1 ratio whereas spell penetration doesn't get scaled down.
Actually I've been pretty curious about doing this starting-AP thing myself. A friend of mine does something like this, takes ignite + burning embers, and buys a tomb as his first item. He has 53 ability power when the game starts.
Imagine that on Kayle or someone with a 1:1 harassing spell! You could do soooo much damage at level one. You would dominate the early laning phase, even if it wouldn't be all that good late game. The early advantage might be enough to snag you some early kills.
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Pretty much Karth in a nutshell, too.
You roll in with Karth's Defile, drop a Wall on as many as possible, Lay Waste until you die, and then when you die, turn on Defile/LW again if they're on top of you (they have to move or eat more damage), then cast an uninterruptible ult (or Def/LW until ~4 seconds in and then Ult).
Karth has stronger AoE DPS than Fiddle, and has a nasty AoE exhaust, but Fiddle trumps him because Fiddle auto-teleports with his ult and has two of the best CC spells in the game. That's all. It's the pansy Karthuses that don't roll in with his AoE that you don't "feel" in a game, because it means he wasn't doing his job properly. At the top-tier Elo Karth is non-viable because CC is rampant, but for like 80-90% of players he's perfectly viable because that AoE DPS is sickening.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
well thats the thing, he is a DPS caster like ryze when as a caster you are expected to be a CC bot. Karthus is an initiator/DPS. this is why I think mejai's is bad on him personally and I never get it, so I can get a faster RoA. He is taking the slot that a different DPS would be in, NOT fiddle, annie, etc I like to compare him to amumu. your dying. but you can usually get an ace out of it.
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@Haem
yea, for what it's worth, i think they've done a pretty good job with making flat bonuses and /level bonuses on runes pose you with interesting decisions.
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On February 18 2010 03:24 Haemonculus wrote:
Actually I've been pretty curious about doing this starting-AP thing myself. A friend of mine does something like this, takes ignite + burning embers, and buys a tomb as his first item. He has 53 ability power when the game starts.
Imagine that on Kayle or someone with a 1:1 harassing spell! You could do soooo much damage at level one. You would dominate the early laning phase, even if it wouldn't be all that good late game. The early advantage might be enough to snag you some early kills.
Barring a very few number of heroes (Zil comes to mind) I don't think you're going to net THAT MANY kills without an ult, especially when most heroes that would score early kills pre-ult using AP have subpar AP scaling anyways (53 ap power being like +18 damage usually). Would be very specific-hero based, I think.
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On February 18 2010 03:32 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 03:24 Haemonculus wrote:
Actually I've been pretty curious about doing this starting-AP thing myself. A friend of mine does something like this, takes ignite + burning embers, and buys a tomb as his first item. He has 53 ability power when the game starts.
Imagine that on Kayle or someone with a 1:1 harassing spell! You could do soooo much damage at level one. You would dominate the early laning phase, even if it wouldn't be all that good late game. The early advantage might be enough to snag you some early kills. Barring a very few number of heroes (Zil comes to mind) I don't think you're going to net THAT MANY kills without an ult, especially when most heroes that would score early kills pre-ult using AP have subpar AP scaling anyways (53 ap power being like +18 damage usually). Would be very specific-hero based, I think.
True, but I'm seriously wanting to try this for Kayle. Her reckoning is 1:1 ratio. That means that I'd be hitting for 53 additional damage right off the bat. (Moreso if I actually got a full runebook of additional AP).
If only I had a crapton of IP to spend on runes.... lol
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@Rhav
Zil is 1:1, and double-casts and has a snare, is why I brought him up. Kayle might work too. Sion also has 1:1. I mean as I said, it depends on the hero, I don't think Kayle is capable of killing early-game, but Zil/Sion might rock with the early buff.
@Brees:
Yepyep. It's just hard to play him because he's a hero who's intended to die, so your life always, always has to be worth the damage you do, and it can be pretty hard to set that up. And, ofc, at better competition there's so much CC that his lack of true CC is pretty harsh.
For what it's worth I don't think Karth should be "losing" to an Anivia, but it'd be hard for either of them to "win" because it's tough for Karth to get into range, and Anivia has to make sure it doesn't happen. You can Flash/Ghost but if Anivia Flashes it's just QQ.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
sion rapes without the extra AP help so yea if you wanna try it on anyone try AP sion, he's my 2nd most played
start doran ring for the regen and run 9-0-21 masteries and you can do a shield/stun combo every 15-20 seconds with his low mana pool. throw in an ignite and you can get first blood easily by yourself.
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Personally, I feel that the AP runes that increase with your level are your best bet. I mean, it just gives soo much more AP, I don't even think it's a hard choice.
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Well, I'm looking at quintessences right now.
I can get 4.95 ability power per quint at the start, or I can have one that scales and will give me 7.75 at lvl 18. In my opinion, 15 from the start is way better than 23 at level 18. Usually by late game I have so much more ability power from items or souls that my runes aren't quite as useful.
But then on Marks, Seals, and Glyphs, it seems different. The scaling ones are eventually 3 times as potent. There, the scaling ones seem obviously more useful.
I'm contemplating this for Kayle. I play her in a strange way. My usual build is 0/9/21. I take heal and ghost, and focus less on killing everything in sight, and more on never dying. I get a soulstealer fairly early, and oftentimes I find myself with a good number of stacks by late game. The rest of my gear focuses on defense or utility. For runes, I take a mix of armor penetration, dodge, mana regen, and flat HP quints. I find these very useful.
But do you think that magic penetration marks might be more useful? I'm still not entirely sure how Kayle's 'E' spell works. Since I am still auto-attacking, am I doing pure physical damage? Or is it a mix? Does my base damage get applied as ranged physical, and then the damage bonus from the spell and my AP count as magical? I have no idea how this works.
Basically what I find is that I harass people with Q, get them low, and then surprise them by tower diving recklessly with ghost and my ult. I score a *lot* of early and midgame kills with Kayle this way. People seriously underestimate her. If I do my crit runepage, I can land some seriously punishing hits with E.
Auuughh I'm so torn with what to do with Kayle. She's definitely one of my favorite champs so far, but I feel like when my E is on cooldown, I do pretty negligible damage with my normal attack, and only my reckoning hurts anyone. Lately though I still find myself useful as I've gotten very good with shielding important teammates RIGHT as they are about to go down, ^.^;
My build is usually this: I open with doran's ring and a health pot. I harass and last hit as much as possible, and go for kills when the opportunity arises. My first trip back to town buys me my boots and the tomb for my soulstealer, or if I've had a very successful farming trip, my SS right then and there. Then I usually go ganking, jumping into another land with ghost on, hit E, spam Q, and kill things. As the charges start to build up, I finish my merc treads, build a banshees, and then sorta wing it from there.
I have a lot of success with Kayle, but I still feel like I could be playing her so much better. Does anyone here use her often or as a main? What runes/item builds would you recommend?
All comments are much appreciated. I'm going nuts over here theory crafting!
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Karth vs Fiddle is actually fairly even. Karthus just loves channeling abilities, because you're doing 150 damage a second (+ defile + AP - MR), outdamaging even Drain. The problem with Karthus is that people don't take advantage of his passive and go for a huge K/D ratio. I'm tempted to take Revive on him, actually.
Karthus' main weakness is against small mobile champs like Tristana. She absolutely destroys Karth in the lane.
Also I'm going remind people about LiquidParty in every single post. Join LiquidParty!
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Definitely not even. Fiddle is elite-tier because of his dual shutdown (including a point-and-click Fear that lasts like 2 seconds even with Treads); I was just arguing that Karth isn't terribad as had been implied. Yi is not viable at all at medium-high games, Karth is very much viable. He's just not super viable at the top when every team is bringing like 6-7 CC skills and tons of AoE.
Rhav:
I think AP/level vs AP/flat vs MPen is very hero-based. I've not played Kayle much, am uncomfortable with Reckoning, and certainly don't play her like you when I do play Kayle, so I can't give you a definitive answer, but...
AP is better with heroes with strong AP:spell ratios. As you mentioned, Kayle has 1:1 so this is quite wonderful.
If you have base 50 magic damage against 50 magic resistance (essentially 25% reduction), you'd be doing 37.5.
If you get 20 reduction via runes, it turns to 15% reduction, so you'd do 42.5 damage.
Meanwhile if you get +50 damage you'll do 75 damage.
If you have 150 damage against 50 resist, you'd do 112.5 damage.
With 20 rune you'd do 127.5.
With +50 (200) you'd do 150.
150 damage vs 100 resist = 75 damage.
With 20 rune you'd do 90 damage.
With +50 you'd do 100 damage.
Obviously if you had mastery/sorc your pen damage would be better (see Last Whisper/Reduc discussion from before), but I'm not sure if it'd trump the AP still.
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EPT
