|
On June 03 2010 12:54 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 12:46 Southlight wrote:
I haven't seen Fiddle wreck a game in a long time. Whether it's become more people have become used to dealing with him or what I don't know. It's still chic to say he's a top-tier hero because he has two disables but with the silence duration nerf I don't think he's hands-down top tier anymore. Fiddle is top tier because he can jungle and he can single handedly kill an entire team.
My point was just that I've seen more teams lose with Fiddle than without, these days. I don't know if it's because people know how to deal with him better, or if it's because the Silence (and AP ratio) nerf really screwed with him. For a long time he was a no-brainer top-tier hero but I'm not so sure he's a no-brainer anymore. He might still be in there, but I feel like niche heroes (as in, heroes that you have to build your team for) don't deserve high tier rankings.
... not that tier lists are particularly any useful these days. As I mentioned, I love the job Riot's done with balancing, and I think most heroes are actually relatively viable these days.
|
United States37500 Posts
Fiddle is definitely a niche hero. Potentially top tier but not as "viable" all around as say a Janna or Ez. Crowstorm will fuck shit up hardcore in team fights but moves like Monsoon or Headbutt really reduces Fiddle's potential.
On a side note, a jungler is pretty much essential in any competent lineup. With that said, Warwick is kinda subpar compared to Udyr or Shaco. Cleanse is just too prevalent in the current meta and ganking is in a jungler's job description.
|
On June 03 2010 13:05 NeoIllusions wrote:I think tier lists are fine (in fact, somewhat fun) but you need to be able to justify your reasoning. Makes theorycrafting a lot more interesting. While I agree with you that L0cust isn't all that, his list isn't as bad as you make it out to be, haha. Maybe you were just over exaggerating a tad. One thing I do find annoying is that you guys tend to blanket statement a lot of champions in this thread (a lot of you guys all premade together, so it's not surprising there's a shared mentality/collective opinion). I know there are a lot of baddies out there (I would know, I solo q most of the time) but it makes more sense when you judge a champion based on its greatest potential. For example, a lot of you guys seem to have a thing for Pantheon and I've seen LoCicero tear it up as Pan (typically in a side lane) but he honestly isn't that great at solo mid. I'd take bigfatjiji's TF or MasteR of LoL's Sivir over any of you guys as Pan in mid. And you guys downplay TF and Sivir a ton. I don't really play with TL guys. I started LoL back in Aug. '09 (Zileas invite, sup?) so I've built my buddy list with some of the older veterans. I've seen Utahime and wrawrawrawra a few times in solo q before. Feel free to add me in game, I'd love to play with other TL guys. I just expect you fools to try hard.  haven't played jiiji's TF but i've played Master of LoL's sivir. LoCi and Maknoon's pantheons are pretty nasty and i'd be more scared of them even though they usually don't solo mid. tekkengod's TF mid isn't good either.
i actually don't remember you ingame though zzz.
|
United States37500 Posts
On June 03 2010 13:14 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:05 NeoIllusions wrote:I think tier lists are fine (in fact, somewhat fun) but you need to be able to justify your reasoning. Makes theorycrafting a lot more interesting. While I agree with you that L0cust isn't all that, his list isn't as bad as you make it out to be, haha. Maybe you were just over exaggerating a tad. One thing I do find annoying is that you guys tend to blanket statement a lot of champions in this thread (a lot of you guys all premade together, so it's not surprising there's a shared mentality/collective opinion). I know there are a lot of baddies out there (I would know, I solo q most of the time) but it makes more sense when you judge a champion based on its greatest potential. For example, a lot of you guys seem to have a thing for Pantheon and I've seen LoCicero tear it up as Pan (typically in a side lane) but he honestly isn't that great at solo mid. I'd take bigfatjiji's TF or MasteR of LoL's Sivir over any of you guys as Pan in mid. And you guys downplay TF and Sivir a ton. I don't really play with TL guys. I started LoL back in Aug. '09 (Zileas invite, sup?) so I've built my buddy list with some of the older veterans. I've seen Utahime and wrawrawrawra a few times in solo q before. Feel free to add me in game, I'd love to play with other TL guys. I just expect you fools to try hard. haven't played jiiji's TF but i've played Master of LoL's sivir. LoCi and Maknoon's pantheons are pretty nasty and i'd be more scared of them even though they usually don't solo mid. tekkengod's TF mid isn't good either. i actually don't remember you ingame though zzz.
LoCi is solid but MakNooN is probably the best Pan on the server atm. LoCi and I talked last week about how it's difficult for Pan to keep his spread in both dmg and hp. Neglect either side and you don't kill fast enough or you get insta-gibbed. Alas, the life of a melee dps'er. MakNooN makes it look so easy though. He ganks with Pan like nobody's business.
TekkenGod isn't that great. There's a dearth of good TF's since cFang settled down. jiji has the mantle now imo.
On June 03 2010 13:02 pokeyAA wrote:
Who here has a good Tank/AD gragas?
Its fun to play, doing nothing but belly smashing people, but I need a build.
I've tried soul shroud, merc treads, frozen heart, though not sure what his first item should be. (cooldowns for W, E, HP and armor for tankage, though MR seems lacking, still feel squishier than I should be)
I've tried rushing mogs, then spirit visage, ( I feel it takes too long to get mogs as Gragas to make it worth it)
I've tried getting brutalizer first, but then I'm not tank enough.
I've thought of rod of ages into rylais , but I kinda wanna just belly smash people and dont really need the AP (his new ratio of 0.5 prob wont do much anyway)
How does aegis, merc treads, sunfire cape, spirit visage sound?
Give me your thoughts!
Again, this wont really be a try hard character, I really just like spamming E.
Soul Shroud or Banshee's first imo. You'll definitely want some heavy HP item first. The added mana bonus is just extra. I'd probably go Catalyst first for level boost, then finish it into a Rod as 2nd item or Banshee's as 3rd item. Warmog's a no-go for Gragas. After you finish your first HP item, build a second HP item if they have a lot of burst or something like a Youmuu's.
|
Re: Neo
It's why when I posted a rough tier list before (some 30-40 pages back or so) someone mentioned, "aren't tier lists inherently biased?" and I agreed completely. As much as I'd love to gauge every hero by their "maximum potential" that's not only subjective but also often not very useful. Beating a dead horse with this anecdote, but a good example is Warwick circa at least November 2009 to like March 2010. That hero sucked ass. Everyone considered him garbage tier. But there was Wazzabi partying it up at top 100 Elo maining Warwick. Does that mean via "maximum potential" Warwick is actually top 100 Elo player tier? The simple answer, to me, was, no, because he was outclassed in pretty much every single way by Udyr. You would have been very hard-pressed to say otherwise.
Different people will simply find themselves more attuned to certain heroes. And if you're not playing in a crowd of Elo people that consistently play those heroes, and play them "well" then whatever tier list calling Corki the #1 ranged carry hero in the game (a stance actually still considered fairly true) becomes rather useless. As it is, even when Corki was considered the #1 ranged DPS hero almost no one actually played him, much less played him even remotely well. His tiering was always reflected as such - even L0cust tiered him under Ashe/Trist despite his maximum potential supposedly being greater.
It's the deal with TF, at the moment. I'm sure the top TF players can kick ass and take names, but there's a fine line around tiering TF too high because he's played by a handful of great players. Is it more the player, or is it more the hero?
The way I tend to look at tier lists is, if two players of equal skill choose different heroes and combat each other, who would have the upper hand? To that degree, TF tends to take a pummeling IMO, and I very much dislike playing alongside one (although he's a popular hero and one of my friends mains him) because I feel him dragging the team down with him for a significant amount of time.
On the other hand, I don't feel tier lists are particularly useful nowadays because there's no real standard criteria anymore. It was a lot easier and more relevant back in the day when 5v5 teamfights ruled the game. It's also why I mentioned if I were to setup a real, in-depth tier list I'd have to have a whole tree of continuum charts describing stuff like
JUNGLING
Bad <-Shen (what a waste of strong laning and a summoner skill) -------------------Udyr Warwick-> Good
PURE TANKING
Bad <-Mord----------Cho--------------------------Alist---Shen-> Good
INITIATING
Bad <-Mord-------------Alist-Shen-----------Rammus-Malphite-> Good
etc. etc. you get the idea. It's so chaotic now I don't think they're any useful. Which is great, honestly. The less effective and relevant tier lists are, the better Riot's doing at balancing.
Pantheon's considered fairly underwhelming (even by this thread, tbh - as much as love is showered upon Panth, I don't think anyone considers him a particularly "great" hero) because despite the obvious need for player skill, he's got a very obvious ceiling. It just so happens that right now, abuse of his one good skill and the abuse of most peoples' complete and utter lack of knowledge regarding Pantheon (as most of them see stuff like L0cust tier 6 Pantheon and think he's horrible) makes him look a bit like Katarina (who is, personally, clearly a step higher than Panth).
Edit:
I've only played against MakNoon a few times (and haven't lost to him I think), so I dunno about consistency but I'd honestly say Smash deserves to be in the conversation of top Panth players.
|
United States2822 Posts
Has anyone figured out why hitting up, down, left, right, up, up, down, down while having the Play button selected on the opening screen allows you to reach the login screen even if the server is busy or unavailable? :|
|
United States37500 Posts
Uh, Konami code homage perhaps...
It was supposed to be the staff's external way onto the server when it was down but it was leaked by an adjudicator months ago. Riot never cared to patch it it seems.
|
the best pantheons i've seen are maknoon, musicc, and loci. maknoon is probably the best of those by far. they've been absolutely dominant. haven't played with smash enough to see if he's on that level but those three are really good.
|
|
|
*shrugs* I dunno if I'm worth considering for best pantheon, but I haven't run into a better on yet. I still feel like I have a lot to learn on certain matchups, so I think there's probably someone out there better than me.
But I will say I'm 100% convinced that mid's where Pantheon belongs to abuse the other team's solo and start snowballing. Putting yourself on a side lane never lets you get to the abusive point where you're actually useful (2-3 levels above side laners with a HS that hits like a truck). I don't know if the only reason I see him as at least tier 3 is because no one knows how to play against me, but it's gotten to the point where it's universal across my opponents. So whether it's unfamiliarity or that he's actually that good is starting to feel irrelevant, because the reality is that I'm routinely kicking a lot of ass and my character is good enough to let me do that.
re: tiptoeing the HP vs. AD line, I typically find myself putting all my eggs in one basket and just getting AD. I've tried toeing the line and building balanced and it usually just drags the game out to the point where you're bad scaling kicks in. Classic best-defense-is-a-good-offense mentality... how are they gonna hurt you if they're all dead?
|
On June 03 2010 15:11 Mogwai wrote:
*shrugs* I dunno if I'm worth considering for best pantheon, but I haven't run into a better on yet. I still feel like I have a lot to learn on certain matchups, so I think there's probably someone out there better than me.
But I will say I'm 100% convinced that mid's where Pantheon belongs to abuse the other team's solo and start snowballing. Putting yourself on a side lane never lets you get to the abusive point where you're actually useful (2-3 levels above side laners with a HS that hits like a truck). I don't know if the only reason I see him as at least tier 3 is because no one knows how to play against me, but it's gotten to the point where it's universal across my opponents. So whether it's unfamiliarity or that he's actually that good is starting to feel irrelevant, because the reality is that I'm routinely kicking a lot of ass and my character is good enough to let me do that.
re: tiptoeing the HP vs. AD line, I typically find myself putting all my eggs in one basket and just getting AD. I've tried toeing the line and building balanced and it usually just drags the game out to the point where you're bad scaling kicks in. Classic best-defense-is-a-good-offense mentality... how are they gonna hurt you if they're all dead?
Straight up, my TF will rape you if I destiny and find you out of position. Cleanse out of your stun and just gold card you + stupidly high dps = lulz dead panth.
Kiting around panth is pretty funny as well. Did it to one today with Gozey and ended up killing him 
|
Straight up, I'll be level 9 with 1K more gold than you by the time you get destiny. Would be cool if you got late game TF by the time I got early-mid game Panth though.
|
United States37500 Posts
On June 03 2010 15:16 Mogwai wrote:
Straight up, I'll be level 9 with 1K more gold than you by the time you get destiny. Would be cool if you got late game TF by the time I got early-mid game Panth though.
Level 9 Pan with 80+ more cs by the time a TF reaches level 6? wat?
|
Please add me to the player list, I just started playing My summoner name is pash1k
|
On June 03 2010 08:46 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 08:25 sleeepy wrote:On June 03 2010 05:28 redtooth wrote:
pretty sure everybody has a base MR of 30. its defensive masteries and runes that boost it. Except Jax has base 40 MR so even though casters "counter" him ( I say that very sarcastically because he counters casters as much as they counter him), early on you're going to deal piss damage with any magic harass in lane. And even later on 10 free MR is pretty nice considering how much more expensive it is. Jax shows a base MR of 31 to me in a practice game. You sure you're not throwing in runes / masteries into the mix there?
Hmm that's weird.
I was playing earlier vs a Jax who had some MR items/runes and it said 40 + 33. I assume the 40 is the base value?
|
On June 03 2010 15:16 Mogwai wrote:
Straight up, I'll be level 9 with 1K more gold than you by the time you get destiny. Would be cool if you got late game TF by the time I got early-mid game Panth though.
You'll be +3 levels above me as panth AND 1k more gold than me?
That's saying you're going to get approx 2k-2.2k gold when I'm 6.
I have to cry bullshit.
|
On June 03 2010 09:31 Southlight wrote:
I feel like I wrote a guide on Anivia but I never linked it, derpityderp.
You need mp5pl seals and glyphs to abuse her as a nuker.
First item Guise
Second item Sorc Boots
Third item Zhonya (or any other AP item)
Be choosy at when you use your spells; most of the time you should be using to farm pre-level 6, at level 6 ideally you do something like R E R, then wait a bit, then Q Q E for the second half of the combo, but if you can't then just harass with R E R, it does a ridiculous amount of damage for cheap. Try to hog Golem if you can (get people to help you with it) to deal with mana issues. And then just stack AP AP AP AP. Your egg should be enough of a detriment to enemies in teamfights to keep you alive, unless you're wandering alone and ganked, but you really shouldn't be wandering alone anyways.
Edit:
Oh yeah, skills, max E (the double damage) first, followed by Q (skill-shot stun), wall after both Q and E are maxed, unless you feel the extra damage from Q is less important than the wall.
Add this to your 1. page post please, i'm gonna totally try this build out when i get my internet back
|
how am i supposed to solomid as ashe against nid?
|
On June 03 2010 16:41 Soloside wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 15:16 Mogwai wrote:
Straight up, I'll be level 9 with 1K more gold than you by the time you get destiny. Would be cool if you got late game TF by the time I got early-mid game Panth though. You'll be +3 levels above me as panth AND 1k more gold than me? That's saying you're going to get approx 2k-2.2k gold when I'm 6. I have to cry bullshit.
although the gold was potentially an exageration(depending on hero kills not just creep score, duh) the level advantage is pretty harsh, ive seen him at mid and he unleashes his full combo and either gets a kill, or forces you off the lane, either way, hes winning. If he holds you off the lane he gets level advantage and beats you more(at least until later in the game) and if you die to him..then he free farms till you get back to the lane and hes still ahead of you on experience
|
On June 03 2010 16:09 sleeepy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 08:46 Zato-1 wrote:On June 03 2010 08:25 sleeepy wrote:On June 03 2010 05:28 redtooth wrote:
pretty sure everybody has a base MR of 30. its defensive masteries and runes that boost it. Except Jax has base 40 MR so even though casters "counter" him ( I say that very sarcastically because he counters casters as much as they counter him), early on you're going to deal piss damage with any magic harass in lane. And even later on 10 free MR is pretty nice considering how much more expensive it is. Jax shows a base MR of 31 to me in a practice game. You sure you're not throwing in runes / masteries into the mix there? Hmm that's weird. I was playing earlier vs a Jax who had some MR items/runes and it said 40 + 33. I assume the 40 is the base value?
As I mentioned earlier most melee champions gain MR/level
Jax gets 30 base + 1.25mr/lvl
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
