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Edit:
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD I WAS BORED.
tl/dr version:
Good players play better, and succeed with pretty much any hero. Accept it, get over it, and start figuring out why they play it better. TaeRang was a feared TF before he got nerfed 50 billion times. Why was he feared so much more than anyone else?
On April 13 2010 21:38 oberon wrote:
He has the secret rune no one else has? He uses her fifth skill? Clearly, she can be played at a high level. It may be harder to play her than, say, Tristana, but she's not inherently bad.
She is inherently bad. All of her skills don't actually accomplish much, her sole reason of existence (her ult) is easily countered at higher levels of play. There is almost no up-side to them. This is just as true as the fact that, prior to its buff, Warwick was bad since even before I started playing at the end of November. That Wazzabi was consistently a top-100 player as Warwick the whole time does not change that he was a bad hero.
The difference is that Wazzabi the player, as is the case for TakashiX and really, the majority of these top players, is far better than the average player. This can be measured in a whole host of ways, but one example, in the case of Wazzabi, is that he would hold, hold, hold his ult until the very last moment, when everyone thinks the enemy is going to Flash or stun, and boom WW's ult strikes. Almost as an interrupt to the enemy action. He does this pretty much every time. In essence, him the player brings out every bit of power from that two-second stun as possible. This, of course, means he'll consistently force people to play overly defensively, because they lose confidence in their ability to escape. He would also be everywhere on the map, playing extremely boldly because of his map awareness, his confidence in his ability to win fights (or escape from ones he can't), and thus creates map control with Warwick that pretty much no one else could - at least, until the buff. Other factors are things such as target selection during teamfights, "disable counting" as is required for channelers like Kat, knowing when and where to be, and just overall efficiency.
Let's take Takashi and Kat, for instance, and I'm not even sure Kat is a hero he plays as a main. He probably knows almost his exact damage output at any given moment, and even knows how much damage output he has over the course of 15 seconds. Then, he might have great judgment when it comes to gauging how much damage an opponent has over 3 seconds, then 15 seconds. This is key. With Kat, the calculation of your "own" damage is quite simple, because her skills are what they are - no potential for rise nor fall. Thus, with that simple knowledge, combined with vastly superior knowledge of the killing potential of OTHER heroes, he'll be more aggressive when he knows he can be, and he'll be more defensive when he must. Over the course of the game this'll obviously net him more damage output than your average player (regardless of hero! and cause him to bait and/or soak up more damage than your average player. For Kat, the little advantages mean being able to use the anti-heal tick from her Shuriken with better timing, and being able to be bold with Shunpo with more regularity, thus outputting more damage than he takes - something most Kat players struggle mightily with. It's not much, because the hero itself has almost no upside, but those are tiny advantages that, maybe, he's able to draw out.
Another example of a "good" player kicking butt (although he lost) with an "inferior" hero is druid, #87 on the December list, playing Pantheon - he kicked this other Pantheon's ass so hard in a 2v2 lane that it was brutal. 'Course, he only ended laning 1-0 because the other players, after the initial level-1 pre-creep fight, simply gave up tower pretty fast, so we couldn't ride that to a win considering our Gangplank fed their Udyr 3 levels over. There was also L0cust playing Gangplank and almost carrying his team to victory (despite his bad teammates, as per earlier posts in thread), but you get the idea. You know what impressed me about L0cust? Even with his team falling apart, he knew what to do - he went back to farming, and then was impossible to gank. You might think, "oh that's not that big of a deal" but it's pretty skillful to be able to push lanes past two dead towers and always be able to get away, Gangplank or not, particularly against Rammus and Twitch. It implies good map awareness and foresight of enemy movements. We're also talking 20-30 minutes into the game here that he broke off from teamfights and farmed up. If he'd kept teamfighting instead of pulling that farmjob off we'd have ended in 30 minutes. Game instead went to ~55.
In all three cases I wouldn't make the argument that any of the heroes are "good" by any means - well, Warwick is good now but before the nerf he was hands down terrible. Maybe Gangplank, though, as his starvation has uses. The point is that good players find tiny advantages that they take advantage of, and regardless of what hero they use they'll continue to be "good." That doesn't make the hero they use any good, although the hero may simply suit their playstyle. That's why I mentioned before that if you're comfortable with a hero, go ahead and stick with it. Just don't be deluded and think your hero is "top-tier" by any means - they're usually not listed as "top-tier" because they have blatant weaknesses that can and will be taken advantage of, or because they're simply outclassed in their stereotypical role. Accept that you're playing a less-effective hero: the faster you accept this the better you'll be. Because you're going to have to understand WHY your hero is inferior, then find the little things that let you overcome them. Plenty of people play Ashe. Plenty of people do damn good with Ashe. Plenty of people win with Ashe, far, far, far more often than they lose. That doesn't mean Ashe is a good hero compared to other "DPS" characters, and she has crazily obvious flaws and deficiencies. When an Ashe takes over a game it usually either means he was happily better than the person/people he was against (ie. they suck) or it means this person is just really f-ing good.
Anyways, wasn't intending to start up the shitstorm I evidently started.
I very much love Twitch, although I don't get the chance to play him anymore 'cause I keep friggin' tanking. He has flaws. Some say he's not viable anymore. I love him for his unique "insta-win" potential. But I'm also aware that he needs a really good team around him to shine - Alistar alone isn't enough to keep something like Jax or Shaco from ruining your day.
On April 13 2010 21:38 oberon wrote:It just looks like a bad Rylai's to me. Rylai's is 700 for 20 AP and a CC on all your spells. Haunting guise is 575 for 20 magic pen and spell vamp. The 20 AP on Rylai's is worth at least 400 (the only way to get it cheaper is with mejai's), so you're paying 300 for an excellent passive. Guise is giving you a good passive and a mediocre one for 575. Plus, efficiency per item slot is MUCH better with Rylai's (obviously, since it uses better base items). Maybe I'm underestimating magic pen? Fiddle's one of my mains, so I could just try it I guess.
As others said, MPen is nasty. Magic Resistance is notoriously expensive and difficult to get in this game compared to armor, particularly early. With Anivia I just open Guise Sorc and that's insta ignore-46-armor (with 15% mastery), plus runes (I have around 8 magic pen runes?) so that's like ignore 55? Even against a Malphite with Aegis I took out 50% of his HP with Ult + E. That's pretty sick o/ In a way I feel like it actually got hit with a nerf (pre-change it had 20 MPen too, and was less expensive), although the change for more gold in exchange for 180 HP over puny regen may be hard to argue against.
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^ good post \o
so I started playing fabulous Taric last night and I was just going with a generic aura-monkey build (aegis -> ss -> starks, lawl). It seemed pretty effective, but I'm curious to hear a more experienced Taric talk about what sort of a build I should be going for. I also guess I didn't really know what I was doing with masteries and runes and shit, I just went like, 17/1/12 (getting meditation, improved heal and improved rally to further my healing and aura-bitch role) and then Magic Pen/Dodge/Magic Resist/Flat HP Quints (my ninja/amumu page).
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When I play Taric I bring Ghost and Flash (he has no innate escape/chase ability), running 9/0/21 for 15% pen. Part of this is obviously affected by the fact that when I play Taric I'm almost always laned with either a Blitzcrank or an Alistar. I start off with Mana Manipulator, because of whom I lane with, and then go either Dazzle Shatter Heal or Dazzle Heal Shatter, sometimes even Dazzle Shatter Shatter Heal depending on lane matchups and whether I'm with Alistar or not. I turn MM into Soul Shroud, then make Aegis, and then after that the game usually ends one way or other. I think I start making Rylai as my third item just for shits and giggles (well, mainly HP and AP) but I'm sure there're better ways of going about it. MPen/Dodge/MRegen/HP Quints for me.
Bear in mind I usually actually play him as a tank (when I lane with Alist/Turkey he starts doing weird shit like three Zeals for better towerpushing and stuff).
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I think everyone agrees on the skill build with him, it seems like points in Dazzle are useless past the first and Shatter is pretty unbelievable. I'm not sure how I feel about packing escape mechanics on taric... The main reason I pack Ghost/Flash on tanky characters is to initiate better, not escape. I guess I just see more value in supporty summoner spells to ensure victory in team fights than escape mechanics unless I really need a hand with initiation.
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They're both escape mechanisms as well as chasing tools, of course :p It definitely does not hurt to have escape mechanisms on Taric, though, because you can solo push so incredibly fast; with Ghost and your innate tanking abilities you can push solo pretty deep and live to tell the tale.
Ghost is useful in general, as it also lets you cross lanes to enter a building teamfight ASAP. You can save a lot of teammates that way, but I still struggle with hesitating to use it, because I keep selfishly hoarding it for escapes. Bad Southlight! Similar for Flash - it's nice for leaping a wall to get to a teammate faster. Well, as a whole, both are good for a support/pushing/tank hero with no built-in escape mechanisms, that's why I take both and spec into both, with the spell cooldown from //21.
Edit:
I should point out that Taric is actually not a very good initiator, which is his biggest downside as a tank. But the fact that he has a ranged stun makes him a great combo initiator, as he'll ranged stun (forcing the other team to stop or give up on the stunned character), then just run in and soak up damage, or just run around and soak up damage because people get frustrated at his healing power. As such, you just won't find a need to use ghost/flash as pure initiation skills as you would on a hero like Alistar. You definitely need at least another stunner to make full use of Dazzle, though. Otherwise your only initiating technique is the good old "bait," which he's quite good at. \o/ It's amazing how many people see Taric out in front and try to kill him. <-- I guess he's like Soraka in that regard.
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well, right, that's what I mean, without a group disable, Taric isn't really initiating much of anything, and it's not like he bursts huge damage on his own or wants to be away from his team, so he probably shouldn't be chasing either. So I guess I just see diminished usefulness in the repositioning/mobility summoner spells. I'm pretty tempted to always take some combination of ghost/flast/cleanse on every hero, but I guess I just question them on Taric who seems to just be a rock with auras and healing attached.
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came off a bit aggressive.
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Well the thing for me with Taric is, if you push deep, and then need to run, then 99% of enemies will have either Flash or Ghost, and if you're running with Taric his stun won't really work well; so you need two to absolutely escape. Otherwise, mobility on a support hero is one of the best, and the ability to chase is key for his stun, too. All in all, I just love the utility of the two mobility spells. Pushing, chasing, helping, that stuff. I think his actual tanking and such his built-in skills do just fine, and I don't like Heal because it scales really poorly.
Edit:
Wait, shouldn't be chasing? O_O That two second stun is awesome for chasing, hahah. Most of the time if you can land a stun on a chase you'll kill them and/or force a bad teamfight.
Edit2:
Ahhhh, I get it.
What I notice is that Taric forces a positioning conundrum for enemy teams, because active Shatter does good damage and applies like -35 armor to everyone it hits. Coupled with its rather large AoE and it's a nasty, nasty skill, particularly early-game, which enables him to play ridiculously aggressive. On the other hand if they spread out too far you'll keep getting high-duration stuns. To that end I can understand getting Starks later, but I'm not a fan of it. Different story. My Shatter is almost always on cooldown, which unfortunately means no armor for my team, but that's okay. I guess that part depends on your playstyle; I play very aggressive with him. For instance, when I switch to mid to hold lane while mid goes gank, and I'm against something like Ezreal, I'll spam stun shatter stun shatter to whittle them down and piss them off. Why I bring it up is, you mentioned he can't really initiate, shouldn't be chasing, etc. In fact he's a great chaser because of a 2 second stun, and he sets up enemies to take massive damage from DPS. If someone's running, and I flash and stun, that guy's almost always going to go down as long as someone with another disable catches up. And that usually happens.
In a double-stun lane that makes Flash and Ghost critical, in a similar vein to Ryze usually taking both. As I have that ranged stun, most people, if they know I can line up a double stun with lane partner, will dance outside of range, and they can match Flash/Ghost with me. If they have double, as I do, whatever, but if they only (as usual) have one, I'll always have the upperhand. Coupled with my lane partner (say, Alistar) having a Flash or ranged stun threat (Blitz) and it's a hefty amount of lane control 
Finally, one of the things Taric has going for him over Alistar (another support/tank) is his pushing power via Shatter. You can drop creep waves and farm so fast it's nuts. And he does not need anyone to push with him - you can easily run up, whack the 3 ranged creep, then Shatter and nail like 4-5 creep kills at once. Takes like 5 seconds for him to clear a creep wave. Not quite as fast as Sivir but still one of the faster ones. He can, and should, solo push when able to. Double escape mechanism ensures that he can solo push and survive.
Maybe it's a difference in our playstyles showing here, hahah.
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*shrugs* ok
I guess I just see it as someone else's job to get the first stun/slow in a chase (because I see Taric as one who should stick with the team, so he shouldn't be chasing alone), and Taric's stun just sorta comes in to seal the deal. I can picture it being really nice when chasing with Nidalee or Ezreal or someone else with no slow or stun but an asston of burst damage just waiting for the right opportunity.
EDIT: ah, yea, I really stick to my team with him. I don't solo push or find myself covering mid with him very much at all :p.
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Yup, difference in playstyles, then. I always first-stun and soak up initial damage. Tharr we goes! If I'm forcing a teamfight I literally stun someone, run in, Shatter on as many as I can, heal myself, then start whacking away with my ult, running around if I need to ult teammates etc. As mentioned, the good old "bait" initialization technique.
And if they refuse to teamfight, then my first-stun will almost always chain into someone else's stun, so we usually grab at least a kill. More often-than-not teams will try to save the stunned teammate and enter a teamfight they're not totally prepared for.
Edit:
mog is a more team-friendly Taric than I am o/
I turn every support hero into like an aggressive carry-ish thing. Has been a habit since DotA. I'm really bad at pure support. I play Soraka as a baiting tank :x Always push out REALLY far and try to bait them into attacking me; sometimes it leads to stupid deaths.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
I have mastered both ninjas, I am a baller with shen and kennen now, love them both.
cant remember the last game i havent got first blood when I play shen, its sooo easy
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go on...
I only FB with Shen post Lizard Buff when I'm jungling, so I'm curious.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
no special tricks really, 9-21-0 matery cleanse/ignite
2 in vorpal 1 in taunt
ping --> taunt ---> vorpal ---->ki strike ---> ignite ---> cleanse any type of CC/exhaust/etc ---> taunt again ---> profit
lvl 1 and lvl 2 you were spamming vorpals at them
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~ how much damage does that do?
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hmm, ok, in my little laning experience with Shen, I tend to get harassed a bit and feel pressured to use my vorpals to stay nice and comfy on health instead of to harass, but I can see it being pretty useful with an ignite setup.
speaking of Ninjas, wtf is with the damage on Kennen's skill shot? it's like, retardedly low base damage + mediocre AP ratio + 1/3 of a stun on a skill shot... wtf is that crap, I feel like the ability is just horrible and I would never put a point in it but for the fact that you need to be able to stack up your Marks of the Storm.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
with veteran scars/hp quints/yellow hp per scaling/doran's shield ki strike almost 1 hits a minion. so...a lot. your partner just needs to hit them once or twice basically, nothing if its a squishy
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
your lookin at almost 1k hp at lvl 3 basically.
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I have been playing Shaco for quite some games but I have a huge "?" above my head after each game.
I am pretty good at early mid game, last 10 games I've had like 6-2 at worst and 10-0 at best. So I own very good, are present in all lanes at help gang.
But even with this ownage, my team somehow manage to lose in the late game. And I feel it is because of me, I get completely useless and don't know what to do. So a few hints would really help.
Like am I supposed to push towers away from my team, or am I supposed to take "hopefully" low hp heros in 5v5 fights (which in turn depends on my team being really good as they have to fight 4v5 until in jump in. I just feel useless in the 5v5 fights. Dunno why really.
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Hmm, interesting. I'll have to start checking Shen HP from now on if laning against. That would explain why some Shen hit hard and some don't. Thanks for the tip :D
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On April 14 2010 03:01 Ota Solgryn wrote:
I have been playing Shaco for quite some games but I have a huge "?" above my head after each game.
I am pretty good at early mid game, last 10 games I've had like 6-2 at worst and 10-0 at best. So I own very good, are present in all lanes at help gang.
But even with this ownage, my team somehow manage to lose in the late game. And I feel it is because of me, I get completely useless and don't know what to do. So a few hints would really help.
Like am I supposed to push towers away from my team, or am I supposed to take "hopefully" low hp heros in 5v5 fights (which in turn depends on my team being really good as they have to fight 4v5 until in jump in. I just feel useless in the 5v5 fights. Dunno why really.
Hahah, man I was going over this sort of thing a while ago XD
Shaco is a liability in 5v5 teamfights; you have to REALLY be owning with him or your team has to be prepared to fight 4v5/4v4. If you build AP you can kinda teamfight, because you're relatively fast-CD single-spell nuker (well, JitB helps a bit, too), but either way you're looking to end the game in about 25 minutes, either by ganking them to the point where they can't catch up, or by keeping map control and holding them down for your hard carry to farm up and dominate.
Late-game, though, either you're nuking like hell with Shiv, or you're solo-pushing and forcing their team to fight 4v4. This obviously means your team has to have been prepared beforehand to fight 4v4/4v5, which means your team will not have a usual hero lineup. I think I mentioned something like two mass-disable tanks are needed to dominate a 4v4. Your whole job late-game is to backdoor and be a nuisance about ending the game via tower-kills. If you can force someone to stop you backdooring, then rush across the map to crunch their team 5v4 via superior mobility, that's ideal.
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EPT
