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On April 05 2010 07:05 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 00:33 oberon wrote:On April 05 2010 00:16 Shikyo wrote:
I've been playing this a bit lately. Just had a game with Tryndamere (The teams were We: Nessaj, Veigar, Tryndamere, Dr. Mundo, Master Yi. Them: Ashe, Shaco, Shen, Rammus, Ezreal), where our team was losing 6-28 at like 25 minutes, their solo mid ashe was lvl 16 after going 4-0 vs the Veigar and we had lvl 10-12, our solo mid veigar was 0-11-2 and I was 3-2-1 as Trynd. Well, then we lost all our turrets except Nexus turrets and then we just barely managed to hold them off. Then for the next 15 minutes on so we just defended like crazy and most of the time our Inhibitors went offline soon after they came back online.
Well then, I got a Bloodthirster, so my equips for Tryndamere were Mercury Treads, Infinity Edge, Last Whisper(necessary, Rammus had 400+ armor without the skill), Bloodthirster, Avarice Blade. After I got a couple of stacks, the defending became a lot easier and I actually got up to like 7-3-5 during the defending with a few kills. Our Master Yi kept just feeding them although I told him to just go try to backdoor. Oh well.
I got a Phantom Dancer next, and soon after that I got a Frozen mallet. We had been stuck in our base for like 18 mins now, and it was about the 50th minute of the game. Then a team fight comes with Mundo going in, Rammus and Shen attacking him as the rest of my team attacks and I spin at Ashe and crit for 950 damage... Long story short, after the team battle I'm 12-3-5 Legendary, then me and mundo push all the mid turrets and their inhib. Next I catch Shaco and Ashe in our golem jungle and kill them, then I and Mundo push alone to their base and we kill their Nexus.
What other champions can do that? Why do people hate on Tryndamere? His slow is AoE all around him and it's a damage debuff as well. People say he doesn't add much to team battles, but isn't the ability to spin to a carry, destroy him in 3-4 hits, immediately spin to another carry or mage etc. adding something to team battles? Not to mention the damage debuff, that really helps vs certain champions, as well. He adds a lot more than Master Yi for instance, and destroys Yi in 1v1 so horribly it almost makes you want to cry.
Oh right, end score 17-3-9, damage dealt 332,726. Some observations from reading: 1) Your opponents were terrible. If you're defending supers, they should be getting dragon and baron, as well as all four jungle buffs, not attacking into your defense. 2) Tryndamere is terrible. He has no CC (alright, he has a slow if they're already running away but still in range -- basically worthless), and he has no way to deal with CC. 3) How did you win a 2v1 against Ashe and Shaco? You'll be slowed by Ashe, and their DPS is going to be way higher than yours -- they just have to run while slowing you and wait for your ult to run out. This doesn't add up. 4) Any hero can carry a team to victory single-handedly if their opponents are bad enough. This was discussed earlier in this thread -- a single story of "I did this, and it was awesome" doesn't actually mean your plan was awesome. I'm 2-0 in rated games with DPS Fiddlesticks, but I'm not wondering why no one else does it. 5) If you like Tryndamere, try Jax. All the melee DPS and ability to close quickly on an enemy that Trynd has, plus a passive that makes him top tier. ENDLESS RAGE
What part of "they just have to run while slowing you and wait for your ult to run out" doesn't make sense?
I'm sticking with my "Tryndamere is garbage" analysis.
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On April 05 2010 07:25 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 07:05 redtooth wrote:On April 05 2010 00:33 oberon wrote:On April 05 2010 00:16 Shikyo wrote:
I've been playing this a bit lately. Just had a game with Tryndamere (The teams were We: Nessaj, Veigar, Tryndamere, Dr. Mundo, Master Yi. Them: Ashe, Shaco, Shen, Rammus, Ezreal), where our team was losing 6-28 at like 25 minutes, their solo mid ashe was lvl 16 after going 4-0 vs the Veigar and we had lvl 10-12, our solo mid veigar was 0-11-2 and I was 3-2-1 as Trynd. Well, then we lost all our turrets except Nexus turrets and then we just barely managed to hold them off. Then for the next 15 minutes on so we just defended like crazy and most of the time our Inhibitors went offline soon after they came back online.
Well then, I got a Bloodthirster, so my equips for Tryndamere were Mercury Treads, Infinity Edge, Last Whisper(necessary, Rammus had 400+ armor without the skill), Bloodthirster, Avarice Blade. After I got a couple of stacks, the defending became a lot easier and I actually got up to like 7-3-5 during the defending with a few kills. Our Master Yi kept just feeding them although I told him to just go try to backdoor. Oh well.
I got a Phantom Dancer next, and soon after that I got a Frozen mallet. We had been stuck in our base for like 18 mins now, and it was about the 50th minute of the game. Then a team fight comes with Mundo going in, Rammus and Shen attacking him as the rest of my team attacks and I spin at Ashe and crit for 950 damage... Long story short, after the team battle I'm 12-3-5 Legendary, then me and mundo push all the mid turrets and their inhib. Next I catch Shaco and Ashe in our golem jungle and kill them, then I and Mundo push alone to their base and we kill their Nexus.
What other champions can do that? Why do people hate on Tryndamere? His slow is AoE all around him and it's a damage debuff as well. People say he doesn't add much to team battles, but isn't the ability to spin to a carry, destroy him in 3-4 hits, immediately spin to another carry or mage etc. adding something to team battles? Not to mention the damage debuff, that really helps vs certain champions, as well. He adds a lot more than Master Yi for instance, and destroys Yi in 1v1 so horribly it almost makes you want to cry.
Oh right, end score 17-3-9, damage dealt 332,726. Some observations from reading: 1) Your opponents were terrible. If you're defending supers, they should be getting dragon and baron, as well as all four jungle buffs, not attacking into your defense. 2) Tryndamere is terrible. He has no CC (alright, he has a slow if they're already running away but still in range -- basically worthless), and he has no way to deal with CC. 3) How did you win a 2v1 against Ashe and Shaco? You'll be slowed by Ashe, and their DPS is going to be way higher than yours -- they just have to run while slowing you and wait for your ult to run out. This doesn't add up. 4) Any hero can carry a team to victory single-handedly if their opponents are bad enough. This was discussed earlier in this thread -- a single story of "I did this, and it was awesome" doesn't actually mean your plan was awesome. I'm 2-0 in rated games with DPS Fiddlesticks, but I'm not wondering why no one else does it. 5) If you like Tryndamere, try Jax. All the melee DPS and ability to close quickly on an enemy that Trynd has, plus a passive that makes him top tier. ENDLESS RAGE What part of "they just have to run while slowing you and wait for your ult to run out" doesn't make sense? I'm sticking with my "Tryndamere is garbage" analysis. wtf you talking about kid. tryndamere is definitely god-tier. wtf is this "running" bullshit ROFL. who runs in LoL? the pros chase until they get to the fucking fountain tower, then they tower dive. besides, wtf you gonna do when tyrn throws a fucking chicken on you? huh? HUH?
btw i typed it wrong.
it should be: ENDLESS RAGE!
ENDLESS RAGE!
ENDLESS RAGE!
ENDLESS RAGE!
ENDLESS RAGE!
ENDLESS RAGE!
ENDLESS RAGE!
ENDLESS RAGE!
ENDLESS RAGE!
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On March 26 2010 10:16 oberon wrote:
I'm currently 91-85, or 51.7%.
Since posting this, I've gone 23-7 to bring my total record to 55.3%. Things can turn around fast, apparently.
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This game is all in the player, there are good Tryndameres out there... it's just that they're hard to find. I played one game where the Tryndamere insisted on mid, and when he found out it was Ashe he was playing against he was happy and assured us it would be okay. Sure enough he had first blood a couple of minutes later and proceeded to be our carry the rest of the game.
Anyway, my graphics card bit the dust and I wont be able to play LoL for a long time. 
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On April 05 2010 09:18 Chrispy wrote:This game is all in the player, there are good Tryndameres out there... it's just that they're hard to find. I played one game where the Tryndamere insisted on mid, and when he found out it was Ashe he was playing against he was happy and assured us it would be okay. Sure enough he had first blood a couple of minutes later and proceeded to be our carry the rest of the game. Anyway, my graphics card bit the dust and I wont be able to play LoL for a long time.
This analysis holds only when your opponents don't know what they're doing. Sure there are good players out there playing Tryndamere, but that doesn't make Tryndamere a good champion.
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On April 05 2010 09:30 InsideTheBox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 09:18 Chrispy wrote:This game is all in the player, there are good Tryndameres out there... it's just that they're hard to find. I played one game where the Tryndamere insisted on mid, and when he found out it was Ashe he was playing against he was happy and assured us it would be okay. Sure enough he had first blood a couple of minutes later and proceeded to be our carry the rest of the game. Anyway, my graphics card bit the dust and I wont be able to play LoL for a long time. This analysis holds only when your opponents don't know what they're doing. Sure there are good players out there playing Tryndamere, but that doesn't make Tryndamere a good champion.
Take me, with Dr. Mundo. I love Mundo and play him all the time, but I recognize that he is outclassed in pretty much every way by Jax. He has his advantages, but on Summoner's Rift he is straight up worse and scales much more poorly.
Same with Trynd. He can function just fine in low level games - as Mundo I once carried my team 23-4-10 (and that was just two weeks ago) but that was against a really stupid Teemo who didn't move as I cleavered his invisible squishy body down to half health. I regularly do well with Mundo, even. Against good players, though, I'm shut down. I can feel my uselessness.
Good players will
a) ignore Trynd until the rest of the team's dead, since his damage is mediocre at full health
b) stun him before he can use his ult, then kill him
c) kite him until it wears off
d) prevent him from farming AT ALL early game, gimping him for the rest of the game
There's a similar list for Mundo, and most melee DPSes have the same problem. If you want to go melee DPS (and not frequently realize you could easily have done much better as someone else), play Jax or Twisted Treeline.
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On April 05 2010 09:18 Chrispy wrote:This game is all in the player, there are good Tryndameres out there... it's just that they're hard to find. I played one game where the Tryndamere insisted on mid, and when he found out it was Ashe he was playing against he was happy and assured us it would be okay. Sure enough he had first blood a couple of minutes later and proceeded to be our carry the rest of the game. Anyway, my graphics card bit the dust and I wont be able to play LoL for a long time. no matter how you look at it tryn is a bad hero. he's hilarious when he's the last hero alive and starts raging but his usefulness is really limited outside of throwing chickens at people. though i have to say his ENDLESS RAGE! and yi's CANNOT BE SLOWED! are two of the most hilarious parts of the game.
also, if that "good tryn" played a better hero he would probably be better as well. although admittedly that's not always the case (like my best hero is kat by miles even though people say she sucks) as style comes into play.
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On April 04 2010 15:52 Mogwai wrote:
If I were to build AP ezreal, I think I'd do something like mana crystal, boots, sheen, treads, GRB, Lich Bane. Am I warm?
I go doran's ring, sorc boots, mejai, sheen, rylai, lichbane
Game's about over then. If not, ill get a zhonyahs or something.
Its easy to get stacks with mejai with Ezreal cause of essence flux and his ult.
I don't think DPS Ezreal is better than AP Ezreal, too many people just looked at Phreak's video and copy his build. Brees got it right, essence flux owns (heals your team, buffs their attack speed, hurts your enemies, slows their attack speed, and with rylais you slow their movement) Then your fire your ult when everyone is trying to focus fire one of your team, and watch their health melt :D
Honestly though i've done well with DPS ezreal too, but AP ezreal just fits my playstyle better.
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On April 05 2010 11:36 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 09:30 InsideTheBox wrote:On April 05 2010 09:18 Chrispy wrote:This game is all in the player, there are good Tryndameres out there... it's just that they're hard to find. I played one game where the Tryndamere insisted on mid, and when he found out it was Ashe he was playing against he was happy and assured us it would be okay. Sure enough he had first blood a couple of minutes later and proceeded to be our carry the rest of the game. Anyway, my graphics card bit the dust and I wont be able to play LoL for a long time. This analysis holds only when your opponents don't know what they're doing. Sure there are good players out there playing Tryndamere, but that doesn't make Tryndamere a good champion. Take me, with Dr. Mundo. I love Mundo and play him all the time, but I recognize that he is outclassed in pretty much every way by Jax. He has his advantages, but on Summoner's Rift he is straight up worse and scales much more poorly. Same with Trynd. He can function just fine in low level games - as Mundo I once carried my team 23-4-10 (and that was just two weeks ago) but that was against a really stupid Teemo who didn't move as I cleavered his invisible squishy body down to half health. I regularly do well with Mundo, even. Against good players, though, I'm shut down. I can feel my uselessness. Good players will a) ignore Trynd until the rest of the team's dead, since his damage is mediocre at full health b) stun him before he can use his ult, then kill him c) kite him until it wears off d) prevent him from farming AT ALL early game, gimping him for the rest of the game There's a similar list for Mundo, and most melee DPSes have the same problem. If you want to go melee DPS (and not frequently realize you could easily have done much better as someone else), play Jax or Twisted Treeline.
Speaking of melee dps, I'm honestly starting to rethink Pantheon's viability. He is usually pretty outclassed, but I do think he fills the AoE burst damage role better than most. It pretty much is just in the context of being on a team with Malphite (or another AoE stun would work), but when Southlight and I run those two, we can melt an entire team in 2 seconds, it's pretty awesome.
EDIT:
On April 05 2010 12:55 pokeyAA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 15:52 Mogwai wrote:
If I were to build AP ezreal, I think I'd do something like mana crystal, boots, sheen, treads, GRB, Lich Bane. Am I warm? I go doran's ring, sorc boots, mejai, sheen, rylai, lichbane Game's about over then. If not, ill get a zhonyahs or something. Its easy to get stacks with mejai with Ezreal cause of essence flux and his ult. I don't think DPS Ezreal is better than AP Ezreal, too many people just looked at Phreak's video and copy his build. Brees got it right, essence flux owns (heals your team, buffs their attack speed, hurts your enemies, slows their attack speed, and with rylais you slow their movement) Then your fire your ult when everyone is trying to focus fire one of your team, and watch their health melt :D Honestly though i've done well with DPS ezreal too, but AP ezreal just fits my playstyle better.
rofl, I think your build fits my playstyle better too :p.
geez, essence flux is re-fucking-tarded when you place it right... it's like 500+ heal to 2-3 teammates and 500+ damage to enemies + an 80% AS swing in favor of your team.
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AD ez is better imo. contrary to popular belief, lich bane procs as physical damage. that means your mpen runes and void staff do nothing and when heroes are walking around with 200 armor your q spell does a lot less then you think (like 50% less). so wow you're putting out 200 damage at lvl 18 every 3 seconds (cooldown for lich bane). great! and the healing? essence flux only scales at .6 so you aren't really healing for THAT much more.
on the other hand, as soon as you hit a Q for 400 damage (cuz with armor pen you actually do damage) you get 3 stacks (45% IAS) and essence flux (to slow opponent IAS) + another Q should get you full stacks. its a fucking 65% IAS passive steroid skill, how baller is that? the ulti is overrated: good early game for sniping those kills at lvl 6 but its not as auto-kill late game. and you aren't going to be hitting every skillshot no matter how good you are. so when your contribution depends on whether you hit that fleeing squishy a quarter-way across the map with a skillshot, i think it becomes very very risky.
i saw phreak's video and i disagree with his build. trinity force is meh IMO. you should just play ez sort of like trist and stack damage asap to take advantage of his awesome passive. last whisper counts as a damage item IMO and lets his Q actually hurt people. black cleaver is sorta ridiculous considering your stacks build up so fast.
edit: this was written before i read the previous post. i guess if you manage to get those items it'll be awesome. but AD ez is MUCH better early game considering you dont have to rely on sheen to do stuff til you get lich bane and AP ez gets dominated solo mid against the better mid champs. i dont know maybe its playstyle too. i hate his weaksauce skillshots early game trying to build up for AP.
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I also think that AD allows hard hitting and speed of that with Q, but AP allows support, thanks to Essence Flux.
God I love essence flux.
Also his Ult scales well, and taking out that champ who's recalling/running with that always makes me rofl. 
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well, just a few things.
1. it's 75% IAS, not 65%, so yea, it's a really flippin' awesome passive and I get why people build for it, I'm just saying that I used to do that and get pretty middling results as a carry and in my first game running AP I was a wrecking ball.
2. your conception of how the ult is useful is completely off. as Pokey said, there comes a point in teamfights where your opponents try to focus down someone, and thus, bunch up perfectly for you to fuckstart all their faces with your ult. You need to be quick about it when you see them bunching up, but after the first couple teamfights, I felt really comfortable figuring out when I would be putting massive amounts of damage on 3-5 of them.
3. you're not just useful for your ult. Essence Flux is hands down the best reason to play AP Ezreal as it deals a few hundred damage, heals a few hundred damage, and completely swings the AS battle in your team's favor. And with a built in blink, you can perfectly position yourself to make it as game changing as possible.
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Speaking of amusing text spam, I think Mordekaiser takes the cake. I don't know what triggers it, but I couple times I've seen
"BAD ORDER, DUDE"
from that little puppet.
AD is insane on Ez because of the passive attack speed bonus... he's basically on par with Tristana in terms of damage output based purely on autoattack speed (you hit 5 stacks just by using the ult, so my friend always opens teamfights with the ult), plus Q gives you like +100 damage on hit, so you're actually doing more damage than even Trist, and earlier. The difference is obviously that Trist farms faster, but... yeah.
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Tibbers also goes nuts with the "BAD ORDER, DUDE!"s as well, it pretty awesome.
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Any idea how to trigger it? I'd love to trash talk people with it deliberately O_O
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On April 05 2010 23:28 Mogwai wrote:
Tibbers also goes nuts with the "BAD ORDER, DUDE!"s as well, it pretty awesome. wat. i've actually never seen that. or at least dont remember it. i have almost 90 games with shaco and i've yet to see that msg pop up with his hallucinate.
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I played about 500 games before I saw it for the first time, and then I saw it again like two games later, then that was it. The whole game like, paused for a moment (this happened in a team fight at first mid tower) as everyone was like WTF WAS THAT LOL and that was that. I'd looooooooooove to know how it happens lol.
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I'll ask Valentinne, he was on an Annie kick when the first patch that included "BAD ORDER, DUDE!" was released... I wanna say it was about a month ago. He used to spam it like Highlander Yi's "CANNOT BE SLOWED!" after hitting a mushroom when we'd fight towers, it was hilarious.
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On April 05 2010 23:20 Mogwai wrote:
well, just a few things.
1. it's 75% IAS, not 65%, so yea, it's a really flippin' awesome passive and I get why people build for it, I'm just saying that I used to do that and get pretty middling results as a carry and in my first game running AP I was a wrecking ball.
2. your conception of how the ult is useful is completely off. as Pokey said, there comes a point in teamfights where your opponents try to focus down someone, and thus, bunch up perfectly for you to fuckstart all their faces with your ult. You need to be quick about it when you see them bunching up, but after the first couple teamfights, I felt really comfortable figuring out when I would be putting massive amounts of damage on 3-5 of them.
3. you're not just useful for your ult. Essence Flux is hands down the best reason to play AP Ezreal as it deals a few hundred damage, heals a few hundred damage, and completely swings the AS battle in your team's favor. And with a built in blink, you can perfectly position yourself to make it as game changing as possible. i've no doubt AP is viable and you might prefer it. but it just seems to me that you're not taking full advantage of this awesome hero. this isn't a direct shot to you or your play but just throwing out more reasons why i think AD makes more sense. one of the main reasons i vouch AD because life becomes so much easier early game. doran's blade (or red pot lol) + armor pen mark runes lets your Q's just rape low health champs. i just dont think AP ez is a viable solo mid while AD is. also in response to some of your points:
1. i've had the opposite experience running AP and feeling like i wasn't doing enough dmg with Q and limiting my utility to healing from the back and ulting to kill/initiate. if i wanted to just heal then there are better heroes in the game for that. also, lich bane proc is highly overrated without armor pen (60%+ dmg reduction lulz).
2. you might be right on this one. i usually used it as a killer or an initiator instead of trying to maximize the damage output per cast.
3. with 500 AP (glass cannon dream setup) you're doing barely over double heal/dmg but the debuff effects remain the same. i've found that opportunities to both heal my damaged teammates and debuff opposing carries (where it really counts IMO) are so very rare. in lategame team fights with AD i just try to flux a physical carry (my team's or theirs) and not focus about the heal/dmg but use it primarily as a buff/debuff with a few bonuses sprinkled in.
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On April 06 2010 00:53 Mogwai wrote:
I'll ask Valentinne, he was on an Annie kick when the first patch that included "BAD ORDER, DUDE!" was released... I wanna say it was about a month ago. He used to spam it like Highlander Yi's "CANNOT BE SLOWED!" after hitting a mushroom when we'd fight towers, it was hilarious. man i'm so curious as to what would make it do that. making the pet go to impassable terrain?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8510/apez.jpg)
