|
On February 27 2010 11:30 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 03:03 Judicator wrote:On February 26 2010 15:21 Sadist wrote:On February 26 2010 13:59 Jibba wrote:On February 26 2010 13:53 il0seonpurpose wrote:On February 26 2010 13:51 Xeris wrote:THABEET TO THE D-LEAGUE !! GG  Yeah, that sucks... I wonder why they chose Thabeet, I heard he's been pretty apathetic since draft night Did you watch him at UConn? He was apathetic way before draft night. Thabeet = scrub i remember when blair made him look horrible To be fair, he's come a long way since just picking up basketball before college. No reason why he should have gone second though, Memphis should have known that they picked up a major project. Maybe big men are the best candidates for pulling a Brandon Jennings/going into the D-league straight out of high school. The only prep to pro instant hit I can think of is Moses Malone (not that I know first hand). College pros: development. Cons: lack of practice time, weaker competition NBA pros: competition and level. Cons: playing time, during the season development takes a backseat to contributing. Is being a below average bench player better than learning in the D(evelopmental) league? Baseball doesn't do this.
Thabeet is a special case, he is really raw, like his basketball sense isn't even there all of the time. I remember Calhoun (his college coach) responding to a question about Thabeet flopping at the end of a close game to get a turnover, and his response was like "That would be pretty awesome, I didn't know he was that basketball smart." Really I have no idea why Thabeet was that high, I had him pegged late first or early 2nd at first. I mean just playing against the other big men in the Big East, he never showed the growth that Okafor did in his final 2 years at Uconn.
|
Wade's outside shot better than Lebrons? Not this season. Kobe's is weaker than his too this season. Not sure how you can give anyone with a lower % 3point shot the 'better from range' argument.
Career.
Lebron:
0.474 0.331 0.742
Kobe:
0.455 0.341 0.839
Wade:
0.481 0.288 0.770
Lebron this season:
0.502 0.352 0.772
While yes, his FT's leave something to be desired, but they aren't terrible. Anyway, when people end their posts with ^_^ it's a given that they are just flat out wrong. He truly is a monster and the argument of championships is complete bull.
|
no testie :/
no.
I don't think anyone even said Wade is a better 3 point shooter than Lebron. Shooters encompasses shots from all around the court, any distance. Wade was always a better SHOOTER than Lebron.
^_^
|
fg% doesn't cut it when determining how good a player is at shooting regardless of whether it's for the duration of one season or for an entire career.
obviously wade and lebron have a substantially higher fg% than kobe because kobe doesn't take it to the rim anywhere near as much as lebron or wade and he jacks up a fair amount of 3s as well.
being a good shooter has to do with consistency in knocking down jumpers (not necessarily 3pters) more than anything.
|
even though I agree with you sam somehow, someway I fear I'm going to have to argue with somebody over whether or not Allen Iverson was a good shooter because of his FG%.
I really hope I don't have to, again.
|
On February 27 2010 11:39 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 10:10 Xeris wrote:
I just think it's impossible to say much about LeBron until he wins a title. However you wanna knock Wade, he has a title and LeBron doesn't. I hate this argument so much.
I can't discount this logic completely because winning a ring is huge, no doubt about it. However, basketball is a team sport and no matter how good an individual player is, a title or lack there of is a reflection of the entire team.
case in point, by that logic, robert horry would be a much better player than charles barkley. horry has multiple titles and barkley doesn't.
let's take another example. I love larry bird, he's one of my favorite players of all time. but put dominique on that celtics team with parish, mchale and johnson and I'm pretty certain he wins a title. Ok, he might not have won as many titles as bird and I'm not trying to say dominique was better than bird because he clearly wasn't. But how many titles does bird win with spud webb in atlanta?
|
Based on games I've seen, I think Lebron has been a better outside (>15ft) jump shooter than Wade this year. I'm not so sure about last year, but I'm fairly confident about this year. But testie, that line of reasoning you are using does not prove it. As I mentioned before, high FG% is often a function of the number of layups and dunks that you take rather than your efficiency with the outside shot.
cyric, we need your awesomeness to settle this friendly argument with some unbiased data.
|
I was hoping this devolved into a flame war instead of friendly argument, oh well :/
As for Lebron having a better 15ft+ shot - I think he takes a lot more of those shots than almost anyone. Lebron literally thinks he can shoot from anywhere which is a good and a bad thing.
|
I am not using FG% alone. In fact I am well aware of how much Lebron explodes to the rim. That's why I listed all 3 stats.
I am using 3pt% and FT%. If his FT% is on par and his 3p% is much greater, are we to assume his mid range shot is really that much worse than Wade's? If his 3p% is greater than Wade's, couldn't a case be made that Lebron is a better shooter than Wade? I'm not making that case, but I find it hard to give a + to someone as a shooter when they aren't nearly as much of a threat behind the 3 line. And yes Lebron does sometimes you know... shoot from WAY BEHIND THE THREE LINE. Which yes, isn't the smartest move.
Ace, don't post like Incontrol.
"Was hoping for a flame war" and "^_^"'s
|
Like I said before though, 3 point range isn't weighted any more than mid range shooting. And I believe Wade is a better jump shooter. Consistency wise and just straight up talent wise. Lebron can have the 3 point shot and still not be a better shooter if he isn't as deadly mid-range.
Now if we are going by a definition of Shooters being guys who are great 3 point hitters then I still wouldn't give it Lebron. Simple fact that those guys I'm looking at would be of the Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups mold who also tend to be pretty good FT shooters. As we all know Lebrons FT% isn't going to correlate very well with his 3Pt.% when mirrored against those guys.
So either way I personally look at it - he isn't a great shooter, and he isn't as good as Wade in that regard. Now when it comes down to who's a better Scorer I'd give a very, very slight edge to Lebron since I think his physicality and talent is just too much for most people to stop. Wade's sheer will power plus talent makes him a really close match though.
|
Sounds like you're giving Wade a + and Lebron a - for things they are quite similar at but aren't near the top of the NBA in. When they are probably very similar from mid range as well. And with Lebron being very similar from mid range, better from close, and better from far... isn't it safe to assume Lebron is at least on par with shooting?
At the rim: Wade 61.3% Lebron 71.4% (Lebron has only made 17 more attempts at the rim than Wade, and has netted over 114 more points total making or dunking 57 more shots).
From mid / close range, Lebron is shooting 37.8%. Wade is shooting 39.1%.
Lebron 158-417 Wade 181-463
Behind the 3 line Lebron is shooting 35% and Wade is shooting 29.9%.
Lebron 110-314 Wade 55-184
Is Wade better from mid range? Sure. Does it negate the fact that Lebron can spread the floor, get way more at the rim, and be nearly as dangerous from mid range? No. Does this make Wade a better shooter than Lebron? Not really. Unless you put much greater emphasis on the 2 than the 3. I think Lebron's 55 more 3's count more than Wade's 23 more 2's.
Now if you said Kobe was a better shooter and more deadly from mid range, that would be glaringly obvious. But I think Lebron and Wade are very similar shooting wise. Except that Lebron is more of an offensive juggernaut than Wade.
(The total outside shooting range combining 3's with 2's is Lebron 36.6%, Wade 36.4%. While both are elite scorers, neither are the greatest shooters ever. Then again they also take more double and triple teams but that's another story).
|
No testie because being better from far, close at mid range and favorable at going to the basket doesn't make you purely a better scorer. Scoring encompasses much more than just being good from 3 zones on the court imo. Drawing fouls, collapsing defenses from different angles (here is where I think Wade is truly a master and where Lebron is just beginning to finally get his game in), being a threat with and without the ball - really there is so much to get into. I'm not trying to give Lebron an A- and Wade an A+ because really both of them are Super Elite. But I've got to compare them somehow and I think I'm being as fair as possible.
Now as for your second paragraph there's a misleading bit - just because Lebron has decent %s in 3s doesn't automatically put him on par shooting wise with Wade. Seriously if you watch these guys play a lot do you honestly, from the bottom of your heart think Lebron James is a better shooter than Wade? And I'm definitely not going to count 3s vs 2s because it's not an accurate comparison of which one of them is a better shooter. Especially when the guy taking more 3s doesn't measure into the profile of the known great shooters in NBA history so why would I even compare? Or do you want to say Wade is a better mid-range shooter, Lebron is a better 3pt shooter so he automatically is a better shooter? That makes no sense :/
I also kind of find it funny you said Kobe is glaringly better, and I find Wade to be very similar to Kobe shooting wise (the MJ mold again).
|
|
|
United States22883 Posts
|
See Ace, you say this but then I say, "hey here's Lebron shooting 36.6% outside of the rim here's Wade at 36.4%". I'm not putting emphasis no 3's or 2's. It's just an unbias'd stat of all shots outside the rim. I really don't know if Wade is a better shooter. What I'm saying is, they are very similar and to choose Wade saying he's a better shooter is kind of ludicrous. And the truth of the stats is, Lebron is more efficient outside of the rim as well as inside. I'm not sure how you argue with straight up #'s like that. Is their shooting technique similar? Probably not. Does it need to be? Nope, Lebron's bigger and stronger. Does the ball go in the hole roughly the same amount of the time? Yup.
|
On February 27 2010 11:29 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 09:29 Judicator wrote:
That being said,I would still take Wade just based on his will. What he had to overcome in Miami so far I will always respect. LBJ not so much. Would you rather have an unstable drama-filled situation with Pat Riley and Ron Jeremy as your coach, or play your entire career under Mike Brown? I think they've both had to suffer a lot. I'm with tenbagger.
Referring to his injury and a godawful season. I am pretty sure LBJ's highs and lows weren't as bad Wade's
|
United States22883 Posts
Mike Brown, good man. HAVE YOU NO HEART?
|
Testie are you trying to force me to argue with you? :/
I was just looking at the shot chart and Wade had more +Zones inside the 3 than Lebron. In fact wade had only 1 bad shooting spot which is the right side of the basket inside the 3 point line. Everything else is either grey or definite red. His blue spots? The other 3 are all outside on the 3 point area.
Coincidentally Lebron has 3 bad spots inside the arc and TWO of them are short range jump shooting spots.
So how am I being biased again?
|
On February 28 2010 04:23 Jibba wrote:
Mike Brown, good man. HAVE YOU NO HEART?
I mean if I had to choose between Mike Brown for a career or the whole coaching debacle, a semi-serious injury during an incredibly underwhelming season followed by mediocrity in the East? I'll stick with Mike Brown.
|
I still think Mike Brown is a good coach. I just don't think I'd ever call him championship level. Some of the things I see the Cavs do I'll never understand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
