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United States22883 Posts
On January 22 2010 02:06 Southlight wrote:
Lebron had one moment (the 25 points in ~8 minutes or something, against the Pistons a few years ago) that's turned him into an overhyped player. That's not to say he's not good, he's great, but that's like saying Brandon Jenning's one half (in that 55 point burst) had turned him into a perennial all-star. It's not enough to elevate that player to the next spectrum, but unfortunately that seems to be what happened to LBJ, in my opinion.
What? He did in game 6 of the ECF and did it with a terrible team behind him, and it's definitely not the only time he's done it.
There's a lot of things he could do better, like shot selection and defensive consistency, but as of right now, I don't see how you can say he's overrated when he's clearly one of the top 2 players in the league. James is averaging 30/7reb/8ast on 51% shooting and 36% from 3. Kobe is at 28/5/4.5 at 46% and 31%. Granted, Kobe is injured but that's on him if he doesn't want to sit for the future performance of the team. Those are overly simplistic numbers that don't tell much of the story, but it is clear that Lebron is having the best season of his career. If Kobe is at that next spectrum, how is Lebron not there with him?
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Many in the media want to place him in the MJ spectrum, which is what this discussion is about. To that end, Lebron is pretty "overhyped" because by most accounts he's not at that level - he's not won a championship, he's not shown that he's a closer like Kobe/MJ, etc. My point was that that one "moment" seemed to key the escalation to the media monstrosity that he had become, because that was considered his "ascension" - yes, that was the word that was used to describe that moment. Yes, it was magnificent, but it was kinda comparable to Brandon Jenning's 55 point burst. For Kobe, such an outburst is commonplace, and it's why his past month has been absolutely filthy, but no surprise. While it would also not be a surprise - in his case because of his potential - if Lebron were to go on such a rampage, it would be the first time in his career, and from a production standpoint such a sustained outburst WOULD be a "surprise."
tl/dr version:
He's without a doubt a top X active player right now, but much discussion focuses on whether he's a top X of all time. That ECF moment is what escalated him to that discussion, and in that regard is quite overhyped.
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I might be alone in this but I think Durant may just be the greatest player ever before its all over.
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baby steps for the durantula first, get your team to playoffs.
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On January 22 2010 04:53 Judicator wrote:
baby steps for the durantula first, get your team to playoffs.
The way they're playing now they should get in. The only problem I have with that is the actual geography of the team and the conference they're in. I can understand the Thunder b/c they were the Sonics, but they should go to to an eastern one now.Another example are the Timberwolves, they're in the same conference as the Lakers.
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I guess it's to keep balance between the two conferences in terms of number? I mean it would be difficult to justify the two conferences are fair (not saying they are right now anyways) when you don't even have the same number of teams in each one.
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basketball is also the team sport where an individual is most responsible for their teams success so to compare rings is definately viable.
To say lebron is overhyped is laughable. What I wil say is D Wade and Carmello are both underappreciated.
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On January 22 2010 04:28 bdams19 wrote:
I might be alone in this but I think Durant may just be the greatest player ever before its all over.
you're not alone. I actually find KD having a very "Jordan-esq" kind of career so far.
@Sadist: Lebron isn't overhyped? Really? I STILL remember around 3 years ago when people were comparing him to MJ before they realized how dumb it was, and they just settled for the Kobe debates.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 22 2010 07:17 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2010 04:28 bdams19 wrote:
I might be alone in this but I think Durant may just be the greatest player ever before its all over. you're not alone. I actually find KD having a very "Jordan-esq" kind of career so far. @Sadist: Lebron isn't overhyped? Really? I STILL remember around 3 years ago when people were comparing him to MJ before they realized how dumb it was, and they just settled for the Kobe debates.
He was. I don't think he is anymore. Look at his "Clutch" numbers on 82games.
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
Per 48:
55.9ppg
14.9rpg
12.6apg
4.8to
3.5stl
55.6% FG
42% 3pt
85% FT
1.7blk The TO are high, but he's usually point-forward at the end of games. No one's all around numbers come close, including Kobe. I don't think it's unfair to compare the greatness of MJ with Lebron or Kobe. Yeah, Lebron may have been overhyped a few years ago but was it really any different than when MJ was getting beat up by the Bad Boys? Does that take anything away from how he played after '92?
Game Winning Shots
LeBron James was just 4-19 in our previous look at game winning shots, so in the ensuing two and a half seasons, he has come up with a very respectable 13-31 (.419) record and just the other day had a pure game winner at the buzzer to top the Warriors. In addition he has six assists and a healthy number of free throws earned. If anything, the Pistons game was really a turning point in his development, not just a blip.
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On January 22 2010 05:15 il0seonpurpose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2010 04:53 Judicator wrote:
baby steps for the durantula first, get your team to playoffs. The way they're playing now they should get in. The only problem I have with that is the actual geography of the team and the conference they're in. I can understand the Thunder b/c they were the Sonics, but they should go to to an eastern one now.Another example are the Timberwolves, they're in the same conference as the Lakers.
it's a matter of simple geography. there are more people in the east than in the west, so there are a higher concentration of teams there while the west for most sports usually extends even to the great lakes.
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On January 22 2010 07:29 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2010 07:17 Ace wrote:On January 22 2010 04:28 bdams19 wrote:
I might be alone in this but I think Durant may just be the greatest player ever before its all over. you're not alone. I actually find KD having a very "Jordan-esq" kind of career so far. @Sadist: Lebron isn't overhyped? Really? I STILL remember around 3 years ago when people were comparing him to MJ before they realized how dumb it was, and they just settled for the Kobe debates. He was. I don't think he is anymore. Look at his "Clutch" numbers on 82games. Show nested quote +4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
Per 48:
55.9ppg
14.9rpg
12.6apg
4.8to
3.5stl
55.6% FG
42% 3pt
85% FT
1.7blk The TO are high, but he's usually point-forward at the end of games. No one's all around numbers come close, including Kobe. I don't think it's unfair to compare the greatness of MJ with Lebron or Kobe. Yeah, Lebron may have been overhyped a few years ago but was it really any different than when MJ was getting beat up by the Bad Boys? Does that take anything away from how he played after '92?
It was a different era of sports media back then, but MJ was not as hyped as Lebron is now before he got that ring (based on old stuff that I've read anyway and old games). Remember when MJ came in he wasn't "given the keys to the NBA" in the same way as Lebron was because they didn't need him. MJ came in on the heels of The Showtime Lakers, great Boston teams with Larry Bird still playing.
When Lebron came in the NBAs image was complete and utter shit. Basketball wasn't being followed as much after MJs retirement so they needed "that big thing" to be overhyped as much as possible and they did it.
Now I agree that Lebron's stats are simply off the charts. He's extremely talented and is easily a top 3 player in the league. But to say he's better than Kobe or even MJ is a moot argument because the matter of winning it on the big stage still stands. MJ wasn't His Airness until he got that first ring. Kobe Bryant for all his glory didn't solidify his reputation as the #2 Shooting Guard of all time until last year. Lots of talented guys have played in the NBA, and have been hyped up to be "the next big thing" and haven't gotten that ring and they gone. For Lebron he needs that ring or else he isn't even close to being better than Kobe. Then when he finally DOES get that ring we have to compare how he did it vs how Kobe did it and how MJ did it. It's just the nature of comparing players we deem the best.
Game Winning Shots
LeBron James was just 4-19 in our previous look at game winning shots, so in the ensuing two and a half seasons, he has come up with a very respectable 13-31 (.419) record and just the other day had a pure game winner at the buzzer to top the Warriors. In addition he has six assists and a healthy number of free throws earned. If anything, the Pistons game was really a turning point in his development, not just a blip.[/QUOTE]
While this is a nice statistic, game winners in playoffs and in The Finals are what really counts ^_^
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United States22883 Posts
Kobe and him are both 4-8 for playoff game winners, which is a ridiculously impressive stat for each.
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I want him to be better than Kobe, but he needs "that moment". MJ and Kobe have it because they are known for getting that ring at all costs and absolutely killing teams when it counts.
Lebron has Mo Williams and Shaq this year, if Boston doesn't make it right now they are imo the only other team that even have a shot vs anyone coming out of the West.
Speaking of which, go Portland!
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Ace the NBA post Jordan all the way up to the Lebron Wade Melo Bosh draft was fucking horrible. There were so many terrible teams it was painful. Lebron got a lot of push because he was simply amazing out of the gate. The Lakers 3 pete had some horrible basketball going on out east. I mean it was pathetic. It was 1 team every year and no one else (and even 1 team is being generous.....the sixers made the NBA finals one year). It was Indiana, the Nets, and everyone else. Even the 8th seed Knicks made the NBA finals in the year of the lockout.
Shit was sad back then. Tons of horrible draft picks that never panned out. Shareef, Marbury, Kerry Kittles, Olowakandi, Ron Mercer, Antoine Walker turning into a scrub, Steve Francis falling off the face of the earth....the list goes on and on. It was HORRIBLE.
Ugh.
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wow did you just say Kerry Kittles? wow...forgot about that dude.
The Nets were a dumb franchise to be honest. Getting rid of Byron Scott led to their downfall.
And yes the NBA was pathetically bad, but still giving Lebron MegaStar rights out of the gate was a bit much.
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United States22883 Posts
More important than this debate, I know the Pistons have won like 4 of 5, but seriously I'd be fine if they tanked it to get in the John Wall sweepstakes. Hell, if I were anything but a Lakers/Celtics/Cavs fan I'd be ok taking my chances on it.
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Francis was amazing in Houston, except he had these random migraines that kept him from playing. Now that I think about it, I would have bet on him being high or using some fucked up shit more than him actually having those migraines.
As for Lebron, the guy's getting more delusional by the season and he's doing it without a ring.
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There's an article somewhere about how Jordan's success made it impossible for us to appreciate great players. I think it was on or linked on espn, but I can't find it. Maybe someone could track it down?
Like Wilt and Oscar Robertson somehow aren't top 10 players because they lacked enough championships.
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On January 22 2010 07:59 Jibba wrote:
More important than this debate, I know the Pistons have won like 4 of 5, but seriously I'd be fine if they tanked it to get in the John Wall sweepstakes. Hell, if I were anything but a Lakers/Celtics/Cavs fan I'd be ok taking my chances on it.
you really that high on wall? he reminds me of a less athletic derrick rose with a better jumpshot.
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holy fuck delonte west 41 minutes 4 fg attempts lol
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EPT
