NBA 09-10: The Roundball Rock - Page 30

On November 18 2009 05:58 Southlight wrote:
Well Kobe missed the playoffs a couple times in his career, so he clearly isn't elite.

Neither is Wade.

Hmm.

On November 18 2009 05:58 Xeris wrote:
He is an elite level what are you talking about? The only knock on him is how he crumbled in the 07 playoffs and 06 finals. He had two not-so-great performances, but otherwise he's been insanely consistent and dependable for his team. He's been a superstar in almost every way you could ask a player to be.

On November 18 2009 06:12 A3iL3r0n wrote:

Here's the test I use. If I was building a team from scratch, would I build a team around a center who's main strength is jump shooting, averages less than 10 boards a game, has average strength underneath the hoop, and is an average defender?

Probably not.

Don't get me wrong. Dirk is a really good player, but he's just not elite.

On November 18 2009 05:31 Southlight wrote:
Because he's one of the most game-changing players in the league, and evidently his offensive production is enough to more than offset his defensive deficiencies - enough that opposing teams focus more on stopping his OFFENSE more than taking advantage of his DEFENSE. Back when he won the MVP he was hands down the stud of his team, and even if he wasn't the best in the league he was considered the most irreplaceable player to his team (which is, at its core, what "MVP" is about). Was he? Who knows, you can argue that most teams would crumble without their stud player, so it's hard to pick out any one deserving player, but he was the one that was chosen that year, and that's that. But to argue that he's not "elite" because he's not flawless is ridiculous.

Incidentally Kobe was and is a great player but until the last few years (when they got Jackson back) he was considered 1) the shadow of Shaq and then 2) a conceited team-killer. Very far from an MVP.

On November 18 2009 06:12 A3iL3r0n wrote:

Here's the test I use. If I was building a team from scratch, would I build a team around a center who's main strength is jump shooting, averages less than 10 boards a game, has average strength underneath the hoop, and is an average defender?

Probably not.

Don't get me wrong. Dirk is a really good player, but he's just not elite.

On November 18 2009 06:55 Ace wrote:


He's a Power Forward...which is exactly why you would build a team around him because he's a matchup problem. Almost every single superstar level player in the league you'd draft is a matchup problem:

Kobe is a SG who can guard SGs and SFs and can't be guarded by either.
Wade can do the same, except you can even let him go 1 on 1 with some PGs. He also brings the ball up which creates a problem for opposing SGs or in some cases SFs who have to guard him coming down the court.
Brandon Roy - same as Wade.
Lebron - needless to say.
Chris Paul - can guard only PGs but he usually does such a good job of generating steals it's always a problem.
Rondo abuses opposing PGs much the same CP3 does.

Now take into account how well most of those guys can run an offense. This is why when you have big Forwards and Centers like Dirk,Stoudemire, Duncan,Gasol, Jefferson and Bosh who can shoot it's a matchup nightmare. An opposing PF who isn't comfortable outside the post and gets caught on the wing is going to be SLAUGHTERED. Repeatedly. So now you have to get a good wing defender to try and stop him, who is usually a SF or in worst case scenario a SG who gets posted up to death when caught on a switch.

On November 18 2009 08:43 igotmyown wrote:
Dirk's extremely low in turnovers and is almost a .500 .400. 900 player for his career. Using his height and his fall away you can't really get a hand up to contest it, so his possessions are extremely efficient. If they had an offensively talented center, his ability to spread the floor would be more apparent.

People care about elite defensively because of Jordan. However you can get a lot more offensive win shares than defensive win shares. Dirks not amazing, but is Chris Bosh or Shaq or Nash?
I mean, in the 2000s, the elite players who are good defensively are Duncan, Garnett, Lebron, and Howard (who's largely there because of his defense).

Question: Is Yao elite when 100% healthy?

On November 18 2009 05:55 A3iL3r0n wrote:I never said he wasn't good. He just isn't at an elite level, because he's fairly one dimensional. He's at the top of the second tier though. You can't make excuses about the first round playoff loss to the Warriors. Do you know how many 1st seeds overall have lost to 8th seeds? It's a tiny percentage. Dallas was the first #1 seed to lose to an #8 seed in the new 7-game first round format of the playoffs.

On November 18 2009 09:08 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
This discussion is going nowhere until A3iL3r0n lists players who he considers to be "elite" and sufficiently two-dimensional. You can always argue whether someone belongs in a certain category if you make the parameters out a certain way. If the only players that fit his definition of "elite" are Jordan, Kobe, post-Team USA Lebron and Wade, Chamberlain, Russell, Bird, etc., then I can understand his sentiment. However, most people's definition of elite is broader than that, and Dirk would fit on most of those lists.