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United States4471 Posts
On November 18 2009 09:28 city42 wrote:
If Dirk isn't "elite" because he's a mediocre (take that as the literal meaning of mediocre, "average") defensive player, then Magic was also one tier below elite. That Isiah Thomas guy wasn't elite, either. Charles Barkley? Please! Nothing elite about him. If only Elgin Baylor or Bernard King played some D. Oscar might have been in the same class as the Glove if he'd just give more energy on defense.
There is a very short list of players historically who were remarkable (like all-NBA level) offensively and defensively at the same time.
True dat.
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the list is even shorter when you ask the question of a player being elite at that level for multiple seasons. T-Mac, Grant Hill, Rashard Lewis in Seattle, J Rich. All those guys at one point in their careers were considered Elite studs and for various reasons no longer are.
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Poor Grant Hill  Injuries so killed him reaching his potential.
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On November 18 2009 09:33 Ace wrote:
the list is even shorter when you ask the question of a player being elite at that level for multiple seasons. T-Mac, Grant Hill, Rashard Lewis in Seattle, J Rich. All those guys at one point in their careers were considered Elite studs and for various reasons no longer are.
tmac and hill yes, lewis and jrich no. even in their best years, lewis and jrich were never considered elite players. all star caliber? yes. nba first or even second team material? no.
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dirk's D is actually underrated imo. he'll never contend for all-nba defensive team but he plays 1 on 1 reasonably well, can defend some 3's and 5's and plays pretty good team defense.
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Yea your right. I'm probably just remembering the crazy amounts of hype they had for 1 season and when they didn't live up to it and died off it just stuck in my head.
On November 18 2009 09:38 Slaughter wrote:Poor Grant Hill Injuries so killed him reaching his potential.
sad, sad story indeed.
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On November 18 2009 09:28 city42 wrote:
If Dirk isn't "elite" because he's a mediocre (take that as the literal meaning of mediocre, "average") defensive player, then Magic was also one tier below elite. That Isiah Thomas guy wasn't elite, either. Charles Barkley? Please! Nothing elite about him. If only Elgin Baylor or Bernard King played some D. Oscar might have been in the same class as the Glove if he'd just give more energy on defense.
There is a very short list of players historically who were remarkable (like all-NBA level) offensively and defensively at the same time.
Charles Barkley is elite. His stats are incredible. I would rather take Barkley than Dirk. I want to have a player who scores 25-29 ppg in his prime, while shooting nearly 60% from the floor, getting you 4 offensive boards a game, 10-12 total rebounds, 4 to 5 assists, 1.5 steals. I mean, he's doing everything. I mean his 25 ppg on 55% to 60% alone is incredible considering Shaq put up the same kinds of scoring numbers & shooting percentage.
The Round Mound of Rebound
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I'll admit one of if not the top reason why I watch the NBA is Dirk. Just seeing him make that 180 turn around fade away off one foot from the elbow over and over never gets old 
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Think the point was that Barkley's defense is questioned?
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barkley vs dirk is an interesting question. I'm a huge barkley fan and I'm old enough to have seen him for a few years during his prime.
here's the thing about barkley though, take his best season 87-88. He put up incredible numbers 28/12/3 with a steal and a block. However, he averaged nearly 4 turnovers a game. At this early stage in his career, he was also not a threat from the 3 point line, and was probably a bit less than average in terms of one on one post defense against other 4's. His defense and long range shooting improved during his phoenix era but he remained a terrible FT shooter throughout his career.
In terms of overall defense, I give dirk a slight edge over barkley. That coupled with dirk's huge advantage in TO's and FT shooting make really close IMO.
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lol wow this discussion won't end well
@tenbagger: Barkley over Dirk in terms of defense by far. Look at his Steals and Blocks...
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His defensive win shares are kind of bad, one year he had 5.5, two years with 4, the rest under. Looks like his best years he was much more dominant offensively than defensively.
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On November 18 2009 09:56 Judicator wrote:
Think the point was that Barkley's defense is questioned?
I think that it counters the point that some make about Dirk's offense being sufficient to consider him an elite player. Which he is, if you only consider players in the league at this moment. But all-time, there are players who have put up much better numbers than Dirk but had similar pedestrian defense. I mean if a guy is getting you 25 & 11 on 55% shooting, that's much better than Dirk 24 & 9 on 48% shooting. Yeah Dirk has range so he spreads the floor more, but Barkley is a better overall player. Scoring 25+ points in a game and having a shooting percentage that high is insane. Few modern players have been able to do that. I mean Dwight Howard doesn't even average that many offensive rebounds per game (so far), 4 over a career is a fuckload. He average more offensive boards than Shaq. I mean, that's badass. That outweighs bad defense, in my opinion. Dirk doesn't have the same saving grace. Because why? He doesn't really give your team that much extra outside of his scoring.
(Plus Barkley gets you a 1.5 steals a game. Wtf, he's fat?)
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On November 18 2009 09:57 Ace wrote:
lol wow this discussion won't end well
@tenbagger: Barkley over Dirk in terms of defense by far. Look at his Steals and Blocks...
defense is a lot more than steals and blocks. also, dirk has career averages of 1 steal and 1 block, which isn't that bad.
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On November 18 2009 10:13 tenbagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2009 09:57 Ace wrote:
lol wow this discussion won't end well
@tenbagger: Barkley over Dirk in terms of defense by far. Look at his Steals and Blocks... defense is a lot more than steals and blocks. also, dirk has career averages of 1 steal and 1 block, which isn't that bad.
That's true, steals particularly aren't an absolute measure of good defense.
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On November 18 2009 10:13 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2009 09:56 Judicator wrote:
Think the point was that Barkley's defense is questioned? I think that it counters the point that some make about Dirk's offense being sufficient to consider him an elite player. Which he is, if you only consider players in the league at this moment. But all-time, there are players who have put up much better numbers than Dirk but had similar pedestrian defense. I mean if a guy is getting you 25 & 11 on 55% shooting, that's much better than Dirk 24 & 9 on 48% shooting. Yeah Dirk has range so he spreads the floor more, but Barkley is a better overall player. Scoring 25+ points in a game and having a shooting percentage that high is insane. Few modern players have been able to do that. I mean Dwight Howard doesn't even average that many offensive rebounds per game (so far), 4 over a career is a fuckload. He average more offensive boards than Shaq. I mean, that's badass. That outweighs bad defense, in my opinion. Dirk doesn't have the same saving grace. Because why? He doesn't really give your team that much extra outside of his scoring.
you have to factor in FT% and TOs as well. As I said before, I absolutely love barkley and he was such a beast. However, his FT% was pretty bad and he turned the ball over a lot. Dirk is phenomenal in both those areas and that tends to get overlooked and undervalued.
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That short fat fuck had a year where he had 1.6 blocks a game. His hops were absolutely incredible.
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On November 18 2009 10:18 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2009 10:13 tenbagger wrote:On November 18 2009 09:57 Ace wrote:
lol wow this discussion won't end well
@tenbagger: Barkley over Dirk in terms of defense by far. Look at his Steals and Blocks... defense is a lot more than steals and blocks. also, dirk has career averages of 1 steal and 1 block, which isn't that bad. That's true, steals particularly aren't an absolute measure of good defense.
For example, charles oakley didn't get many steals or blocks. But he was a very good defensive player. His one on one post defense, help defense and overall team defense was excellent.
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On November 18 2009 10:13 tenbagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2009 09:57 Ace wrote:
lol wow this discussion won't end well
@tenbagger: Barkley over Dirk in terms of defense by far. Look at his Steals and Blocks... defense is a lot more than steals and blocks. also, dirk has career averages of 1 steal and 1 block, which isn't that bad.
But steals and block tell you a lot about how active of a defender a player is. It's impossible to be called a lazy/sub-par defender when you are racking up steals and blocks. Dirk isn't even close to Barkley in that regard. I also don't pay attention to the OWS and DWS category because honestly it's pretty useless.
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On November 18 2009 10:13 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2009 09:56 Judicator wrote:
Think the point was that Barkley's defense is questioned? I think that it counters the point that some make about Dirk's offense being sufficient to consider him an elite player. Which he is, if you only consider players in the league at this moment. But all-time, there are players who have put up much better numbers than Dirk but had similar pedestrian defense. I mean if a guy is getting you 25 & 11 on 55% shooting, that's much better than Dirk 24 & 9 on 48% shooting. Yeah Dirk has range so he spreads the floor more, but Barkley is a better overall player. Scoring 25+ points in a game and having a shooting percentage that high is insane. Few modern players have been able to do that. I mean Dwight Howard doesn't even average that many offensive rebounds per game (so far), 4 over a career is a fuckload. He average more offensive boards than Shaq. I mean, that's badass. That outweighs bad defense, in my opinion. Dirk doesn't have the same saving grace. Because why? He doesn't really give your team that much extra outside of his scoring. (Plus Barkley gets you a 1.5 steals a game. Wtf, he's fat?)
I'm kind of lost here. I don't understand why you're comparing Dirk to Barkley. I think everyone would take Barkley over Dirk.
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EPT
