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On May 13 2011 07:30 Beyonder wrote:
Replying to the 'offtopic' posts: SC2 fanbase is just a lot younger. BW has had the same players for so many years, it's only natural that the BW community was more mature and in general had more 'quality'. But quality is a dreadful word for that, I think maturity is a better word. But for SC2 to grow, the younger and more quantitative fanbase is needed oh so much. So in a way it is a double edged sword.
Apparently the SC2 community is not developed enough to take such awesome (and opinionated!) posts. I honestly do not see why people take it so personal. Be happy that someone has a different opinion than you and learn from it. It does not harm you one bit. Or at least, it should not.
Posts like this in every community get this kind of reception. Go look at any Super Smash Bros vs Other Fighting games debate. It's surprisingly similar. The attitude of SSBM players because the know their game is more mechanically demanding and reaction to its sequel and other fighting games in general.
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Interesting article.
It will be very interesting to see what the future holds. We know there will be probably major changes as the expansions roll out.
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On May 13 2011 07:31 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:27 Bobgrimly wrote:
But until sc2 is more balanced and strats ironed out and learnt (look at the changes to the meta game/balance patches in the last year... its far from being finished... not to mention 2 expacs to come) Can you exactly explain what changes happened to the metagame in the past year? Bonus points for not making a list of popular strategies.
Chill can you define your question a bit more for me? At the moment I am thinking about what hasnt changed in the meta game in the last year as being the smaller list.
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Oh wow. Now I am salivating at the prospect of seeing BW names in GSL in the near future. Given that the current crop of GSL champions pretty much sucked in BW, this should make for some awesome SC2 soon-ish.
Of course, it's gonna be that much harder for foreigners by then, unless they work as hard as Koreans.
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Calgary25988 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:31 brownthing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:04 K3Nyy wrote:
To put it in perspective, Idra, probably the most strongest foreigner in SC1 when SC2 came out, is pretty much dominating right now. MVP, the only A class player to transfer over is dominating pretty hard as well. If there was no solid relationship between SC1 and SC2, they wouldn't be winning nearly as much.
. However, people like IdrA still lose (rarely) to people like Combat-EX, whereas in BW someone like combat-EX would never be able to touch IdrA in 100 games.
That's not true at all. I took games off Idra in BW with build order wins and trickery. I am fucking terrible at BW.
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On May 13 2011 07:34 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:31 brownthing wrote:On May 13 2011 07:04 K3Nyy wrote:
To put it in perspective, Idra, probably the most strongest foreigner in SC1 when SC2 came out, is pretty much dominating right now. MVP, the only A class player to transfer over is dominating pretty hard as well. If there was no solid relationship between SC1 and SC2, they wouldn't be winning nearly as much.
. However, people like IdrA still lose (rarely) to people like Combat-EX, whereas in BW someone like combat-EX would never be able to touch IdrA in 100 games. That's not true at all. I took games off Idra in BW with build order wins and trickery. I am fucking terrible at BW.
I just dont understand where this idea of broodwar came from. It seems everyone thinks that sc1 was all mechanics and that only mechanics won games. But here is another example that that is false
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On May 13 2011 07:20 ZessiM wrote:
Even if Starcraft: BW players are more talented, I don't see how this makes competition in SC2 a 'farce' by any means :s
there is not real competition cause most players are not top tier RTS gamers (aka BW S-Class pros)
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On May 13 2011 07:31 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:28 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On May 13 2011 07:26 Medrea wrote:On May 13 2011 07:24 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On May 13 2011 07:17 Medrea wrote:On May 13 2011 07:15 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
I've thought about it a little more. My issue with the OP is not his base position, but all of his surrounding arguments.
Base position: BW players practice more and because of that create better games. If SC2 players practiced more like BW, they'd be better.
This is a fine statement and I think the overwhelming majority of people would agree with it. Where you lose me, and most of the dissenters, is when you meander off that topic and touch the outlying areas about it. Further adding to the problem was that the first SC2 final edit was essentially a blog post insulting SC2 players (note: obviously not his primary goal, but that is certainly how it comes off to most people). Many SC2 pros already practice 12 to 16 hours a day with 8 hours rest. There are only 24 hours in a day so, how can they practice more? It's about practicing efficiently, not so much about the sheer # of hours. The mechanics demanded by SC2 are less than SC:BW, so quite frankly thousands of hours aren't needed to really get them down. However, true analysis and a deeper understanding of matchups/maps are done by really trying/targeting different things while practicing. I think, at the moment, too much of sc2 is mass gaming as practice or maybe trying out very select build orders. Honestly, I think (and I posted about it earlier) the inclusion of a true SC2 ProLeague would be huuuuge for its development. When players have a better chance to be chosen and have more games to prepare for, they'll spend their time more wisely. At the moment, with so few tournaments available to the majority of players, most of their time is spent down twiddling their thumbs. Click on the upcoming events tab to the right. I'm talking about Koreans, not foreigners. Foreigners have a different problems when it comes to practice. So GSL is not a proleague?
He means Proleague, like the Shinhan Bank Proleague, which is an actual teamleague with a structured system that BW has in place.
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Its stuff like this is why I hate all the stuff that keeps coming out of the BW diehards. Why can't they Support SC2 and not just shit on it every single chance they get.
Just so my point is clear We have Not one but TWO $50k leagues that are primarily america based and The scene is growing every single month. And yet the top community site must have an article on the front page saying how the entire world of sc2 is a farce and all the storylines that we've really been happy about is just total shit and we're all failures that have no hope against 300 people that don't speak English and have nothing at all for use to even care about if we're not extreme fanboys that love watching a game that looks like total shit compared to every other game.
TLDR: reaction: But everyone come back and watch the TSL3 Finals this weekend which is going to be total shit beacuse no one whos not asian and plays BW is total shit. What kind of message does this send?
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Calgary25988 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:34 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:31 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 07:27 Bobgrimly wrote:
But until sc2 is more balanced and strats ironed out and learnt (look at the changes to the meta game/balance patches in the last year... its far from being finished... not to mention 2 expacs to come) Can you exactly explain what changes happened to the metagame in the past year? Bonus points for not making a list of popular strategies. Chill can you define your question a bit more for me? At the moment I am thinking about what hasnt changed in the meta game in the last year as being the smaller list.
The metagame would be doing things like:
1. Assuming what your opponent will do, based on the current popular strategies, and trying to exploit it.
2. Researching your opponent and preparing builds that counter his style.
3. Switching your style in a high-profile series because you have a well-known style.
Even if strategies change, I haven't seen any of the above things change in a decade.
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On May 13 2011 06:54 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:21 mitthrawn wrote:
The writer of this article must be a huge bitter SC:BW vet. :D It's lovely how much better the new SC2-fans are at TeamLiquid are than us bitter SC:BW vets, that they get to judge this article like the above poster without ever having contributed ANYTHING to this website. The amount of people coming out and bashing the OP and defending their precious SC2 while making ignorant claims about BW is disgusting.
The article does come off as somewhat bitter given phrases like "i'll f**ing say it", "don't expect an article that ends with a message of hope", "the level of competition is a farce", etc. [paraphrases]. That doesn't mean all BW vets are the same way obviously.
Also, there is nothing wrong with posting critical opinions of the OP (assuming they are within reasonable standards of civility). You may prefer it if TL only allowed people who had "contributed something to the website" to participate in the forums, but you are probably a minority in that regard...
To all of you who have been fighting to defend SC2 (notably the ones who took this as an SC2-bash thread and the ones who don't accept that competition is stronger in BW and that BW pros would roll SC2): you're wrong. BW is vastly superior to SC2 right now despite the fact that SC2 has BW training and strategy-investigation to work off of because SC2 players don't work as hard and are thus simply not as good as BW players. All the sports analogies fail to take this into account.
EDIT: It's more like the elephant got beaten for being too smart and hidden under the rug, because the majority of TL is now SC2 fans.
I think the main criticism of the article was that it lacks a compelling/non-obvious point. I haven't seen anyone saying that Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu would be unlikely dominate SC2 if they committed to it.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:31 Miefer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:30 Beyonder wrote:
Replying to the 'offtopic' posts: SC2 fanbase is just a lot younger. BW has had the same players for so many years, it's only natural that the BW community was more mature and in general had more 'quality'. But quality is a dreadful word for that, I think maturity is a better word. But for SC2 to grow, the younger and more quantitative fanbase is needed oh so much. So in a way it is a double edged sword.
Apparently the SC2 community is not developed enough to take such awesome (and opinionated!) posts. I honestly do not see why people take it so personal. Be happy that someone has a different opinion than you and learn from it. It does not harm you one bit. Or at least, it should not. i think talking down to sc2 players isnt mature or showing quality at all...
I think that him eloquently writing down his (backed up!) view is actually very mature. Dialogue is the adult way. Taking offense to anothers opinion on the other hand...
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What if Michael Schumacher would play tennis, football and of course drives fast cars for ferrari? What if John Mcenroe would have been playing football and Lionel Messi would have been playing tennis instead of football? What if Great Britain did not choose to engage in the first World War? Would there be an european continent ruled by germans? What about Hannibal? Maybe the Roman Empire could have thought that Hannibal doesnt give a shit about mountains and elephants at all. Maybe and of course we dont know. So what if Flash decides to start studying? Just because he would like to do so. What if Jaedongs right hand gets hurt?
Dear TeamLiquid,
please care about the quality of the site's content. Keep up the good coverage and give input that matters. Counterfactual history is not your job. Niall Ferguson could do this much better.
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On May 13 2011 07:37 slimbo1 wrote:
What if Michael Schumacher would play tennis, football and of course drives fast cars for ferrari? What if John Mcenroe would have been playing football and Lionel Messi would have been playing tennis instead of football? What if Great Britain did not choose to engage in the first World War? Would there be an european continent ruled by germans? What about Hannibal? Maybe the Roman Empire could have thought that Hannibal doesnt give a shit about mountains and elephants at all. Maybe and of course we dont know. So what if Flash decides to start studying? Just because he would like to do so. What if Jaedongs right hand gets hurt?
Dear TeamLiquid,
please care about the quality of the site's content. Keep up the good coverage and give input that matters. Counterfactual history is not your job. Niall Ferguson could do this much better.
Because switching from racing to tennis is comparable to switching from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2. Awesome first post.
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On May 13 2011 07:36 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:34 Medrea wrote:On May 13 2011 07:31 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 07:27 Bobgrimly wrote:
But until sc2 is more balanced and strats ironed out and learnt (look at the changes to the meta game/balance patches in the last year... its far from being finished... not to mention 2 expacs to come) Can you exactly explain what changes happened to the metagame in the past year? Bonus points for not making a list of popular strategies. Chill can you define your question a bit more for me? At the moment I am thinking about what hasnt changed in the meta game in the last year as being the smaller list. The metagame would be doing things like: 1. Assuming what your opponent will do, based on the current popular strategies, and trying to exploit it. 2. Researching your opponent and preparing builds that counter his style. 3. Switching your style in a high-profile series because you have a well-known style. Even if strategies change, I haven't seen any of the above things change in a decade.
Inca Meta gamed the crap out of Nada using the fact that all of his practice games with Nada were long macro practices.
Unless you are wondering about changes in the act of meta gaming has happened. In which case nothing because Game Theory has existed forever.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:36 sermokala wrote:
Its stuff like this is why I hate all the stuff that keeps coming out of the BW diehards. Why can't they Support SC2 and not just shit on it every single chance they get.
Just so my point is clear We have Not one but TWO $50k leagues that are primarily america based and The scene is growing every single month. And yet the top community site must have an article on the front page saying how the entire world of sc2 is a farce and all the storylines that we've really been happy about is just total shit and we're all failures that have no hope against 300 people that don't speak English and have nothing at all for use to even care about if we're not extreme fanboys that love watching a game that looks like total shit compared to every other game.
TLDR: reaction: But everyone come back and watch the TSL3 Finals this weekend which is going to be total shit beacuse no one whos not asian and plays BW is total shit. What kind of message does this send?
Its one mans view.. and it is an awesome article that adresses an interesting point. He should not voice his opinion? O_O
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On May 13 2011 07:30 Beyonder wrote:
Replying to the 'offtopic' posts: SC2 fanbase is just a lot younger. BW has had the same players for so many years, it's only natural that the BW community was more mature and in general had more 'quality'. But quality is a dreadful word for that, I think maturity is a better word. But for SC2 to grow, the younger and more quantitative fanbase is needed oh so much. So in a way it is a double edged sword.
Apparently the SC2 community is not developed enough to take such awesome (and opinionated!) posts. I honestly do not see why people take it so personal. Be happy that someone has a different opinion than you and learn from it. It does not harm you one bit. Or at least, it should not.
I'm sorry, but so far in this thread both sides have been pretty much equally disrespectful to eachother. If the BW community actually is more mature they should act like it, lead by example and all those nice things.
And as for the post itself, it borders on trolling. There is a fair argument to be made that BW draws better players because of the money/prestige involved, but you can make that case without completely dismissing SC2 as a 'farce'. This is the response you get for threads like these, no matter if it's on the NY Times website, a sports site or teamliquid.
A thread like this was bound to happen at some point tho, with 2 completely different communities on 1 site. There are multiple reasons sites like wellplayed.org are more or less distancing themselves from TL as a community, and part of that is the rampant elitism here. You can be a veteran RTS player without rubbing it in someone's face all the time.
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On May 13 2011 07:37 slimbo1 wrote:
What if Michael Schumacher would play tennis, football and of course drives fast cars for ferrari? What if John Mcenroe would have been playing football and Lionel Messi would have been playing tennis instead of football? What if Great Britain did not choose to engage in the first World War? Would there be an european continent ruled by germans? What about Hannibal? Maybe the Roman Empire could have thought that Hannibal doesnt give a shit about mountains and elephants at all. Maybe and of course we dont know. So what if Flash decides to start studying? Just because he would like to do so. What if Jaedongs right hand gets hurt?
Dear TeamLiquid,
please care about the quality of the site's content. Keep up the good coverage and give input that matters. Counterfactual history is not your job. Niall Ferguson could do this much better.
schumacher was actually quite decent at football ^^. Off topic but I found it a fun fact :D.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:37 slimbo1 wrote:
What if Michael Schumacher would play tennis, football and of course drives fast cars for ferrari? What if John Mcenroe would have been playing football and Lionel Messi would have been playing tennis instead of football? What if Great Britain did not choose to engage in the first World War? Would there be an european continent ruled by germans? What about Hannibal? Maybe the Roman Empire could have thought that Hannibal doesnt give a shit about mountains and elephants at all. Maybe and of course we dont know. So what if Flash decides to start studying? Just because he would like to do so. What if Jaedongs right hand gets hurt?
Dear TeamLiquid,
please care about the quality of the site's content. Keep up the good coverage and give input that matters. Counterfactual history is not your job. Niall Ferguson could do this much better.
Oh come on, that is such an awkward comparison. SC2 is the new (!) sequal to BW. Those sports have been out there forever and are a lot less related.
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On May 13 2011 07:20 ColdLava wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:16 snakeeyez wrote:
People have argued about this before, but in my personal opinion flash and jaedong would win at starcraft 2 pretty fast as expected. I do not think they would dominate and would routinely lose games to immvp or ogsmc because unlike brood war starcraft 2 does not allow player to distinguish themselves with micro like brood war did. Watch bomber and mvp play each other and tell me what flash could improve specifically to make him a league above either of them? Starcraft 2 does let you dance 8 marines a few medics around lurker damage or shoot individual vulture mines. In starcraft 2 you get baneling bombs or force fields where you just sit there and go oh whoops I should have scanned or ran away I guess I am at a big disadvantage now. Dude, if you think Flash and Jaedong win at BW because their "micro sets them apart" you clearly don't know what you're talking about. They win because mechanically and strategically they are a lot far ahead of the opponents they are facing, they simply make better decisions. The reasons that made MC and MVP dominant in SC2 so far, Flash and Jaedong are a lot better at than they are. Well thats not quite true. While terran is more of a decision making race, for zerg the specific micro is vermy important - notice how jaedong is consistently the best zergling microer in the game, this has big implications for course of game
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EPT
