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On May 13 2011 06:54 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:21 mitthrawn wrote:
The writer of this article must be a huge bitter SC:BW vet. :D It's lovely how much better the new SC2-fans are at TeamLiquid are than us bitter SC:BW vets, that they get to judge this article like the above poster without ever having contributed ANYTHING to this website. The amount of people coming out and bashing the OP and defending their precious SC2 while making ignorant claims about BW is disgusting.
Guess what, the 'above poster' played SC (yes the original!) online (as well as SC:BW) and he also finds your post pretty hilarious. You, dear sir, shouldn't judge a poster just from the 'joining date' of his account. And now, dear sir, continue being a bitter vet.
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On May 13 2011 07:03 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:59 Weird wrote:
I'm so glad that this post was made, it's really helped bring everyone here together, BW and SC II fan alike... Oh wait, it's done the complete opposite for 115 pages, thanks dickhead. No, I think it was the stupidity that arose from all the SC2 fans that has been doing that for over a year, and the BW fans trying to get simple concepts into their thick skulls, then the SC2 fans being pissed that they are being (rightfully) talked down to. This is just the best thread to vent that, and if you look through the thread, it's a pretty even division between people who take shits on this thread/argue with the OP while having no understanding of BW and people who agree with it.
What fucking concepts, can you not see your post reeking of elitism?
Alright man, the SC2 scene is garbage, everyone who plays it is trash, BW is king, we like a shitty game. What do you want? Yes, the BW scene has had time to grow and produce some of the best competition of any game.
This post being on the front page does nothing other than dismiss the competition in SC2 and romanticize the level of play in BW.
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1308 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:05 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:03 Oreo7 wrote:
This is silly and based on poor logic. The assumption that "you're good at BW therefore good at sc2" wasn't proven at all throughout the article. Many people have observed that sc2 is a much more cerebral game. In any case, we can't know how well flash, jd, bisu and others would do in sc2 until they play sc2. I think it is pretty openly assumed near the top of the article. Show nested quote +The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results.
We see the clear Brood War Advantage© in action here. Their mechanics are honed and their instincts unerringly accurate. If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans. But if we look at the actual numbers behind their Brood War careers, it immediately becomes obvious that they were nobodies in their own scene.
What if they (flash, jd, bisu) switch AND "fail" : do you think the guy who wrote the article will say "I was wrong" or instead we'll hear stuff like "its because sc2 is imba, filled with cheesy builds, there's not enough money for sc1 champions to give their best, or they became too old to win, only the average people are left, the real champions lost their mojo but trust me SC1 takes more skills than SC2, good old days good old days we will never get players like these ever again" and so on, silly excuses ad nauseam.
Once again, being someone who hasn't seen the whole SC1 scene, I couldn't care less about it, I know there's tons of people all around the world playing SC2 trying to be excellent at it and I enjoy seeing them fighting in order to get the crown for it, and I gotta say I'm super impressed with what I see, with so many people playing and so much money at stake, I'm confident that people who repeatedly win competitions do so for a reason - they're the best of the best at THIS game (and not at another version of it which I don't care about).
Maybe some of these SC1 guys you mention would switch and be successful but maybe they wouldn't ; Boxer, Nada, Cool, and so on who while playing decent on GSL have shown nothing impressive so why should your candidates be fundamentally different ?
Until they prove they are, throwing a couple of other names and half-baked stats to downgrade the whole SC2 competition seems to me just like another attempt at trolling and spoiling people's fun.
Or to make a parallel with another sport (I am no sport encyclopedia so I took one of the only examples I knew about of sportsmen going for one sport to another...and then back) : Mario Andretti ruled at Formula Indy but had a miserable career attempt at F1 in the middle of his Indy career.
Mansell had a great F1 career and also had a decent Indy career post-F1.
Based on that kind of info, you could EITHER assume that
both Andretti and Mansell were great champions and that F1 and Indy are great sports to watch
OR you could just write a long essay with randoms conclusions such as
a)Andretti sucked, look at his F1 results trolololol
b)Andretti was way better than Mansell, it's just that F1 takes no skills (insert random technical reasons) plus Andretti had a bad car, otherwise he'd have ruined the competition.
c)All Mansell victories were due to lack of competition (everyone called in sick the years he won) or blind cheesy strategies but the guy drove like my mom.
d)Andretti never wanted to go to F1, it's just that his Indy sponsors disappeared for a while, otherwise he'd never gone as low as driving a F1 (plus there's french people doing it lolololololol)
e)F1 is for knobs
f)Indy is for knobs
Add some random %, a couple of pictures and serve hot.
Honestly, TL, that kind of posts on the Homepage ?????? Trying to shoot yourself in the foot ?
I play a lot of SC2, that's how I came to your website. If what I get on the frontpage is "SC2 sucks, there's no competition", maybe if you repeat it enough I'll end up believing in it...not watching tournaments (since you suggest me they're so bad) would then be a logical step to lose all interest in the game pretty fast. It's a great effin game to play and to spectate, why try to bring it down ?
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
A large part of being a top gamer is mentality, the right state of mind. This transfers well between good games such as BW and SC2: you need the same mental aspects and the same behaviour. In addition, a large part of the skills/mechanics also transfer between these games. Science has shown how incredibly important practice is, and many articles state that practice, if done in a mindful manner ("deliberate practice"; read: this is not mindless massing games), is (almost) solely responsible for creating a true expert in a domain. Almost all the top BW players would do very well in SC2 if they could find the passion to work on it as dedicated as they did in BW. They are efficient practice machines! It's just the way it is. And because of its uniqueness, the same could not be said about BW. It was truly the first of its kind.
There is an undeniable huge correlation between skill in BW and SC2. There should be for the reasons listed above. Experts are created in both games in the same way. And even if the BW gamers would start late, their work ethic and way of thought would give them an awesome learning curve.
I absolutely love SC2 and I watch a great deal of games. But in a way it is true: a lot of the top gamers are very bad, and there are only a few exceptions. And these exceptions have mostly shown to be good at BW. Sadly, I feel that this is the reason so many cheeses work, and that we have so many terrible plays and players. The field of exceptionally good players is ridiculosuly thin, so people die to all sorts of terrible stuff. Rain in the final of GSL? Inca in the final?
Awesome article, and its a shame so many people take it so personal. I eagerly await the day that these pro BW players switch. More competition equals more fun for us viewers. It will be an interesting watch. Until then, still enjoying SC2 for the awesome game it is.
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This was an elephant for a reason OP, because there was do point in saying. Now that you wrote an article what did the community get? Just a revival of the SC2 and BW debate. In all honesty while you did put a lot of work into the article (and it did show) i feel as the post was just troll bait and didn't add anything productive.
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On May 13 2011 07:03 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:59 Weird wrote:
I'm so glad that this post was made, it's really helped bring everyone here together, BW and SC II fan alike... Oh wait, it's done the complete opposite for 115 pages, thanks dickhead. No, I think it was the stupidity that arose from all the SC2 fans that has been doing that for over a year, and the BW fans trying to get simple concepts into their thick skulls, then the SC2 fans being pissed that they are being (rightfully) talked down to. This is just the best thread to vent that, and if you look through the thread, it's a pretty even division between people who take shits on this thread/argue with the OP while having no understanding of BW and people who agree with it.
You are clearly superior to anybody who is a fan of SC2 because you are a fan of BW.
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On May 13 2011 07:04 K3Nyy wrote:
The only people who don't agree with this article are people that started with SC2.
...
To put it in perspective, Idra, probably the most strongest foreigner in SC1 when SC2 came out, is pretty much dominating right now. MVP, the only A class player to transfer over is dominating pretty hard as well. If there was no solid relationship between SC1 and SC2, they wouldn't be winning nearly as much.
Idra has done well and had some tournament wins, but he hasn't been "dominating" the scene. Off the top of my head, he won IPL, but did poorly in TSL and MLG Dallas. MVP is obviously a top player with two GSL wins, but has had a fair share of losses, even dropping to Code A for a season. Yes, they're good, and obviously BW experience and ANY RTS experience is helpful in SC2, but as has been pointed out countless times, there is no proof of a 1:1 correlation...
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On May 13 2011 06:59 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:57 floor exercise wrote:On May 13 2011 06:55 Medrea wrote:On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true. Just....No. Bad control scheme is never a good thing. By this logic making the game so players have to play bejeweled while they build units would also make the game more competitive. But then this logic suggests games that play themselves are the greatest games of all It means that games with good control schemes are the greatest games of all. Which they are.
Well, some people think that a "good control scheme" is one where skill (in terms of micro, marco and multitasking) is rewarded.
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I heard they're releasing a version of Starcraft that's PURE strategy, with all control issues removed from the equation entirely!
Here's a rare leaked image of this awesome new game!
http://i.imgur.com/NzTzd.gif
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On May 13 2011 07:09 gn0m wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:59 Medrea wrote:On May 13 2011 06:57 floor exercise wrote:On May 13 2011 06:55 Medrea wrote:On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true. Just....No. Bad control scheme is never a good thing. By this logic making the game so players have to play bejeweled while they build units would also make the game more competitive. But then this logic suggests games that play themselves are the greatest games of all It means that games with good control schemes are the greatest games of all. Which they are. Well, some people think that a "good control scheme" is one where skill (in terms of micro, marco and multitasking) is rewarded.
That is all supported in SC2. Additionally, so are things like hotkey customization, like any good modern game.
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On May 13 2011 00:12 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:10 Scraps wrote:
Don't forget to thank Starcraft 2 for providing 75% of the audience for this article. 75%????!?!?!?! They have the numbers, its much more than that.
You're right, I was being generous I guess.
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I've thought about it a little more. My issue with the OP is not his base position, but all of his surrounding arguments.
Base position: BW players practice more and because of that create better games. If SC2 players practiced more like BW, they'd be better.
This is a fine statement and I think the overwhelming majority of people would agree with it. Where you lose me, and most of the dissenters, is when you meander off that topic and touch the outlying areas about it. Further adding to the problem was that the first SC2 final edit was essentially a blog post insulting SC2 players (note: obviously not his primary goal, but that is certainly how it comes off to most people).
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I don't really get the point. Are you saying we should be excited for the great players to come in the future? Or are you saying SC2 progaming is not as good as BW progaming? I mean, as long as a lot of people enjoy watching SC2, what exactly is the problem? Or isn't there a problem???
I really just don't get what you are trying to say.
We have two games with a large scene of progamers and lots of intersting matches, why should we call one better or worse? Maybe it's because SC is not that important to me, but in general, it is just entertainment and I find SC2 entertaining.
The way you wrote the article, it sounds as if the SC2 community got sort of the 'garbage' of BW players. Even if that was the case, why does that say anything about SC2? It's not the same game and not the same people watch it. For example HD and Husky have a huge amount of fans, who would never watch BW, but enjoy SC2 very much.
Ah well, whatever. I'm tired ^^
Peace 
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People have argued about this before, but in my personal opinion flash and jaedong would win at starcraft 2 pretty fast as expected. I do not think they would dominate and would routinely lose games to immvp or ogsmc because unlike brood war starcraft 2 does not allow player to distinguish themselves with micro like brood war did. Watch bomber and mvp play each other and tell me what flash could improve specifically to make him a league above either of them? brood war would let you dance 8 marines and a few medics around lurker shots or shoot individual vulture mines with goons and an observer. In starcraft 2 you get invisible baneling bombs or force fields where you just sit there and go oh whoops I should have scanned or you could take your hands off the keyboard and just watch half your army get removed by force fields. The most micro I have seen is splitting marines against banelings which takes skill, but brood war had way more chances for a flash to distinguish himself from lesser players.
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On May 13 2011 07:15 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
I've thought about it a little more. My issue with the OP is not his base position, but all of his surrounding arguments.
Base position: BW players practice more and because of that create better games. If SC2 players practiced more like BW, they'd be better.
This is a fine statement and I think the overwhelming majority of people would agree with it. Where you lose me, and most of the dissenters, is when you meander off that topic and touch the outlying areas about it. Further adding to the problem was that the first SC2 final edit was essentially a blog post insulting SC2 players (note: obviously not his primary goal, but that is certainly how it comes off to most people).
Many SC2 pros already practice 12 to 16 hours a day with 8 hours rest. There are only 24 hours in a day so, how can they practice more?
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hahahaha, is so good to see the truth on the front page, instead of "MC THE BEST PROTOSS PLAYER OF ALL TIME IS INTERVIEWED BY ROFLCOPTERS.COM ..."
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I wonder why I put all that time into writing my response-post only to realise no one will even read it, I need to re-evaluate my life.
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On May 13 2011 07:17 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:15 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
I've thought about it a little more. My issue with the OP is not his base position, but all of his surrounding arguments.
Base position: BW players practice more and because of that create better games. If SC2 players practiced more like BW, they'd be better.
This is a fine statement and I think the overwhelming majority of people would agree with it. Where you lose me, and most of the dissenters, is when you meander off that topic and touch the outlying areas about it. Further adding to the problem was that the first SC2 final edit was essentially a blog post insulting SC2 players (note: obviously not his primary goal, but that is certainly how it comes off to most people). Many SC2 pros already practice 12 to 16 hours a day with 8 hours rest. There are only 24 hours in a day so, how can they practice more?
More importantly, the OP doesn't actually provide any evidence other than the practice habits of StarTale. Which is hardly indicative of the whole... the oGs and Slayers practice regimens both seem quite rigid and taxing.
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Even if Starcraft: BW players are more talented, I don't see how this makes competition in SC2 a 'farce' by any means :s
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On May 13 2011 07:16 snakeeyez wrote:
People have argued about this before, but in my personal opinion flash and jaedong would win at starcraft 2 pretty fast as expected. I do not think they would dominate and would routinely lose games to immvp or ogsmc because unlike brood war starcraft 2 does not allow player to distinguish themselves with micro like brood war did. Watch bomber and mvp play each other and tell me what flash could improve specifically to make him a league above either of them? Starcraft 2 does let you dance 8 marines a few medics around lurker damage or shoot individual vulture mines. In starcraft 2 you get baneling bombs or force fields where you just sit there and go oh whoops I should have scanned or ran away I guess I am at a big disadvantage now.
Dude, if you think Flash and Jaedong win at BW because their "micro sets them apart" you clearly don't know what you're talking about. They win because mechanically and strategically they are a lot far ahead of the opponents they are facing, they simply make better decisions. The reasons that made MC and MVP dominant in SC2 so far, Flash and Jaedong are a lot better at than they are.
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