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On May 13 2011 06:37 RevRich wrote:
Not sure what this article attempts to do besides cheapen the current SC2 competitive scene.
Heres some food for thought: Some of us weren't into broodwar and don't particularly care about Korean pro gamers! (*gasp*) We don't care if some guy in Korea decided to switch he could dominate the competition. Some people fail to realize broodwar was a niche scene for the most part, and SC2 has a must larger and more casual player base.
Also, I believe the skill gap between the average broodwar pro and the elite broodwar pros would be greatly minimized in SC2 due to its inherent noob friendly mechanics. I'm not sure Flash would stomp MC 10 out of 10 games even after playing sc2 for a few months.
In the end, though, I just think many of us don't care. We didn't all follow the broodwar scene for 10 years and play the game for even longer. We bought sc2 because we enjoy RTS games and its new, exciting, and up-to-date.
And over 90% of you will move on to other things soon after the last expansion gets released.
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He then goes on to say some would absolutely shit on everyone. Neither of which I agree with, there would be some who would dominate the scene and compete at the top level, but no even for Flash and Jaedong I don't think it'd be, "Oh shit, they're here now, we're all pretty much fucked", for the top players in SC2 when they finally transfer over. He goes on to say the current scene is farce, sure that may be more relevant to some than others, but it ultimately affirms the idea that the current SC2 scene is garbage and is tainted because all of them are just place-holding and when the BW pros get interested in SC2, they'll get fucked.
Right.. and it makes sense doesn't it?
1. Best SC2 players were players in BW.
2. The better they did in BW, correlates to performance in SC2.
3. There exist players leagues ahead of the current best in SC2 that didn't leave BW.
What is so controversial, hard to understand, and oddly aggravating to you people about this? Why aren't people getting warned for flaming the OP? It's a completely logical argument, maybe they won't crush in 2 weeks and the OP is exaggerating, but considering Fruitdealer was INSTANTLY good at SC2, that Nestea and MVP were arguably the best players by the 2nd GSL season, wouldn't you think such big names like Jaedong and Flash (who I don't even know whom they are, mind you, as someone who never played or watched BW besides customs as a kid) would begin making at least a name for themselves in 2 months, and perhaps major tournament results in the same time as the current best - within 3 months? And given how much better they were in BW than current SC2 stars, maybe 2 weeks isn't that far-fetched?
I can only imagine people flaming the OP didn't watch BW or something, and BW kicked their dog. Because I think BW is boring, I don't like watching it, I don't know anything about it (my ignorance probably the reason I think it's boring, mind you) - so if my opinion is this way as someone who dislikes BW, I can't imagine what twisted ignorance would make people flame the OP. Obviously you must be ignorant about BW, just like me.... only more so?
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On May 13 2011 06:39 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:37 RevRich wrote:
Not sure what this article attempts to do besides cheapen the current SC2 competitive scene.
Heres some food for thought: Some of us weren't into broodwar and don't particularly care about Korean pro gamers! (*gasp*) We don't care if some guy in Korea decided to switch he could dominate the competition. Some people fail to realize broodwar was a niche scene for the most part, and SC2 has a must larger and more casual player base.
Also, I believe the skill gap between the average broodwar pro and the elite broodwar pros would be greatly minimized in SC2 due to its inherent noob friendly mechanics. I'm not sure Flash would stomp MC 10 out of 10 games even after playing sc2 for a few months.
In the end, though, I just think many of us don't care. We didn't all follow the broodwar scene for 10 years and play the game for even longer. We bought sc2 because we enjoy RTS games and its new, exciting, and up-to-date. And over 90% of you will move on to other things soon after the last expansion gets released.
Well that's probably over 5-6 years of sc2, i'd say that's quite impressive.
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The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true.
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On May 13 2011 06:34 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:28 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:20 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:17 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:13 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:09 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:07 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:04 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:01 Cathasaigh wrote:On May 13 2011 05:47 dangots0ul wrote:
[quote]
The article is wrong. Rainbows last game was 08. The three years up to his last game he was 20-31. He was decent way way back, but he would fall into the washed up old pros category with Boxer and Nada.
I think the Ace thing is a joke. Or by distinction he doesn't mean distinction in terms of skill. Dude, as far as I can remember, was a B-team scrub and occasional proleague appearences.
Now your making more sense.
But your proving the OPs point. If Flash come to SC2 now, it would be reasonable, that he would tear it up. A few years from now, he may not tear it up as he would now or even as quickly. THe point is, Flash and JD have general RTS skills that have been cultivated and weeded out through an intense 10 year old system. There is something about these individuals that make them good at RTS (just like now the BW scrubs are tearing it up now). This is OPs point. IF Flash came in the future its not a question of IF but WHEN (assuming SC2 just doesn't cultivate a super-Flash, if i may, by then but seems unlikely with the work ethic SC2 players current have due to team strucutring compaired to BW).
Maybe OP is bias, but this doesn't mean he doesn't have a point. No... the OP's point was that the top 300 bw pros and semi-pros would be better than people in sc2 if they switched. Most people don't have a problem with saying that Flash or JD would be at the top of sc2 if they switched but to say that the top 300 would easily be at the top of the sc2 scene if they switched is just retarded. "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games." - intrigue Learn2read. When is someone who both understands english and stops constructing strawman arguments going to say something. How is that far and away from what he said? 300 Brood War pros have the potential to walk over and shit on the pro scene in SC2 at any moment after a couple of months. He goes on to say that it cheapens the competition right now, further implying that the players right now would just get dominated if the REAL pros got serious about SC2. What the fuck are we not comprehending, where is our strawman? What you said: the OP's point was that the top 300 bw pros and semi-pros would be better than people in sc2 if they switched. What OP says: I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the POTENTIAL to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment God, I am like the best at teaching 3rd graders (I dont judge how many times you have repeated) Why the fuck would he go on to say that it cheapens the competition right now unless he's implying that those 300 BW pros would dominate the current scene. Sure, any number of people have the potential to come into any sports scene and do well, but that wouldn't cheapen the opinion of the current play in that scene unless you're saying the current play is shit compared to the play of the other potential players. Where is your reading comprehension? "Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. " This is him saying he can't guarentee shit for 298 of the 300 players. But its likely/they have good potential. Reading comprehension next lesson. YOU need to learn to walk before you run. I agree with Hot_Bid for the most part, just not with the OP, he's not letting Hot_Bid make his point for him because he then goes on to make his own fucking point which is not what Hot_Bid said, and is something I don't agree with at all. If you go by Hot_Bid's quote, that would have no effect on the current quality, or bring up the statement that SC2's current competitive scene is a farce. Intrigue: "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games." AMONG THIS GROUP THERE ARE A NOTABLE FEW THAT CRUSH... He is saying this farce is for him (and maybe some others who watch the scene). Do you have to accept it? No. Just because JD and Flash, which you seem to agree are beasts, aren't in SC2 does it make it not worth watching? This is relative. If you can enjoy sc2 than go for it. But you enjoy it despite there being some top top talent in a different RTS that would likely be top top talent in this RTS. Are you... fucking joking? "300 current pros and semi-pros have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment". He then goes on to say some would absolutely shit on everyone. Neither of which I agree with, there would be some who would dominate the scene and compete at the top level, but no even for Flash and Jaedong I don't think it'd be, "Oh shit, they're here now, we're all pretty much fucked", for the top players in SC2 when they finally transfer over. He goes on to say the current scene is farce, sure that may be more relevant to some than others, but it ultimately affirms the idea that the current SC2 scene is garbage and is tainted because all of them are just place-holding and when the BW pros get interested in SC2, they'll get fucked.
Opps, confused you with Moron #2. You guys are quite similar in many ways.
Regardless, you need to stop making everything relative to yourself. Never did he say if BW ppl game next day top300 would be BW players. He said its a farce to HIM.
As for your disagreement. Every other post will tell you why your statistically wrong and after that you just have blind faith...
If intrigue had lead you think its garbage and tainted then LOL @ YOU and good for him cause he fucked with your head and got his point across. If this doesn't bother you then your doing a shitty job showing (not showing?) it.
God, what i waste of time it is to respond to you. You have said the same thing 4 times and made everything relative to self and also had a period.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true.
But how will my 20 APM friend that plays with one hand get a win? Won't he quit after getting stomped by those who can manage to play without infinite control groups? What about what the public wants? And what about getting Blizzard paid? (cause i heard they don't make alot)
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On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true.
You want to remove an intuitive user friendly interface? What you're suggesting is moving backwards to the outdated interface of sc1. It's silly to make the game unnecessarily harder. It's not like the audience is going to be in awe at the raw skill because progamers are limited to 12 vs infinite. There are plenty of other ways to showcase skill, much still undiscovered (=
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On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true.
If you want more micro/higher skill cap just remove a-move (bw & sc2), would be pretty epic games
I think bw/sc2 comparisons should stick to strategies and alike, the OP doesn't offer anything new really imo
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On May 13 2011 06:39 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
And over 90% of you will move on to other things soon after the last expansion gets released.
Would it make you happy if we did? Cause it sure seems like it from your tone.
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On May 13 2011 06:29 Belial88 wrote:
^ MVP was #1 on Ladder right away. Fruitdealer was known as the best during the beta. Nestea and MC took a bit to bloom, but were no small players since the beginning. These guys dominated right away, and it wasnt like in the first year the game was populated with a lot of nobodies. Isn't everyone on Grandmaster a someone from BW?
So I don't think it's ridiculous to say they would dominate in 2 weeks when Fruitdealer, one of the best BW players to come to SC2, was the best player the first week the game came out. MVP was amazing even in seasons 1 and 2 of the GSL (just some bad rounds is all, amazing play by him in those seasons) and was arguably the best player in GSL S1 and S2 - and he was a BW pro.
So I wouldn't be surprised at all if it took 2 weeks for these guys to make a name for themselves. Will they win a GSL? Maybe, maybe not. But after a month of training, would they make it into the GSL? Probably.
Who in Korea with an interest in RTS games have NOT played BW?
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The thing about NesTea to remember is that he was the zerg coach on KT Rolster so it is no surprise he has great game sense and with the lower apm requirements of sc2 compared to brood war, his game sense and knowledge really began to shine
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On May 13 2011 06:26 SlipperySnake wrote:I like that there is a least a little spice and a strong opinion in this article but the premise is ridiculous. Not everyone cares about having the best robot come over from Korea to bow to the rest of the world and show us that by devoting 12 hours a day every day he can be the best. I couldn't give two shits whether there is some kid out there playing C&C that could come on the scene and dominate until he actually does. Until then I won't pretend I know how good he would be if he switched over because I won't be thinking about him because it is irrelevant to watching this game. Also SC2 is global and I already have players to watch that I can actually follow and care about that aren't emotionless robots. For instance, I am not going to throw my hands up in the air in disgust when watching TF2 casts because my some of the best CS 1.6 players don't play TF2. Furthermore I am certainly not going to to get all butthurt and declare that it is some elephant in the room and that they would DOMINATE because their aim is so good. Instead what I do is deal with it and enjoy the level of play that I see instead of speculating about how great other players would be with no proof and no purpose unless it actually happens and if this effects how I view TF2 then I will just stop watching it, problem solved. Out of the entire article I think the thing I cared least about was this. Show nested quote + Hot_bid
.....it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
Which begs the obvious question, how is that anything other than meaningless conjecture? And why if I am not having wet dreams over BW should I care at all? It isn't relevant at all to what I do care about which is SC2. It is cool for there to be BW fanboys but keep it within your game and don't expect to be taken seriously when the base your entire argument on BW stats. I just couldn't care less about how people want to compare BW and its players to SC2. On a side note Hot_bid's argument here just reeks so heavily of fanboy that is makes me tear up. Show nested quote +The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. Yeah except no, this statement is just insane. If these guys would be so good at anything to go into then why don't they choose something more profitable which as the OP originally points out is keeping them in BW. They could be professional poker players or cure cancer or they could stick to games that their skill set is maximized in. Until they try their hand at something different but with a similar skill set lets pretend it doesn't matter because until then it really doesn't.
Seriously? Way to completely ignore context. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that that statement wasn't supposed to apply to EVERY single field out there. He was just referring to them being able to excel at non-physical sports (I'm not sure if I agree with that myself but I'm certain that they would dominate in every single RTS with enough time). Also, their decision to get into starcraft was based on their passion and love for the game, it wasn't some calculated choice about which career gives them the most money and fame. Remember that these guys are just kids who happen to be passionate about a video game. What separates Flash and Jaedong from other progamers is their hard work and dedication. Keep in mind that they've been playing for several years and their hard work and dedication still hasn't diminished in all those years. Look at the attitude displayed by someone like Fruitdealer, a GSL champion, and compare that with the mindset of Flash and Jaedong, and it should be obvious why even if you completely ignore their superior skill, Flash and Jaedong should be feared if they ever start playing SC2.
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On May 13 2011 06:39 d_so wrote:
inverse relationship: TL post count :: getting offended by this article.
also an SAT analogy back when it 1600 was the max score:
BW is to SC2 as _______________ is to playing the guitar.
a. Cooking
b. Riding a bike
c. Guitar Hero
d. Counterstrike
e. World of Warcraft
Posts like these from BW fans make me glad they have their own subforum. It's funny that none of the people that like SC2 talk down on BW but the other way around...?
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For me, this article was filled with facepalming moments.
What was the point of this article (Yes I read the points section)? Pro's are going to go where the money is? Wow a shocker.
Also this quote:
They enjoy prime salaries playing a game where they won't suddenly be informed that barracks now require depots, or that spellcasters have lost their energy upgrades. There is arguably less luck involved too, since build order wins and easy-to-control-and-make 1a deathballs exist on a much smaller and more understood scale.
Im sure almost all of us recognize this as an ignorant hate speech. In the same article he mentions repeat GSL contenders he mentions that the game is just luck based. That is just silly. Clearly the OP is merely repeating his experience on the ladder. Usually when I hear someone say these things, it means they can't scout and they can't drop.
I am also confused, does he not want the game to be patched? Starcraft 1's patching was abysmal at best, patches came from nowhere. The reason why the game became balanced at all is because the players themselves balanced the game with custom maps, and meta game thinking.
TLDR: OP is a confused ladder player.
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On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true.
I think thats pretty senseless. I mean its your choice to put all units in one group or divide them into different groups. I think its always better to have it divided then all in one because then ur units wouldnt clump together especially against siege tanks. Only noobs a move with one contol groups. U should watch some stream from TLO. He always spread his units before atttacking and dont even need control groups for that.
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I'm kinda disappoint from you TL community from all communities i tought you will understand this and not make it in to a flame fest.Lets look at some things what wins you games in SC2 ? Macro ? No not really... Micro ? well kinda but the most part is decision making and your build order so saying something like any of S class players will not dominate in this game is silly because the game is made more fo the casuals and noob friendly....mechanics don't matter that much.So you see Flash who has the best ingame decison making ability from all of the BW players now and denying that he can dominate in a game that only requiers making the best choice in the game.You can say "but they are many choices many decison to make" well think again with the lebels for every unit that Blizzard made and the "counter" system the choices are simple and limited.Another thing is just look at the foreigner scene who is dominating?The same faces that have been forever in the BW community and they proved in BW that they are no match for their Korean brothers.Now look who is top in Korea scene.One a-teamer and some random guys which you never heard if you didn't watch the BW scene closely and other dudes who thought to themselves "huh easy money" and switched over.Even July Boxer and NaDa are doing great without much practice only because of their ability to make the right decisions.Imagine some of the S class guys from today BW switch to SC2 he will beat all those guys with raw talent and just his decision making will be 10 times better only because he played a RTS game were the skill cap wasn't so low.
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On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true.
Why? Why do people complain about things like this? Does this make SC2 easier? Yes, from a mechanical standpoint. But all that mechanical stuff (yes, that includes things like Larvae Injects, MULEs, and Chrono Boost) is just repetitive. Those are things that you're expected to do well as a high level player, they don't make you a better player by themselves. In BW, you were expected to be able to send your SCVs to mine, it didn't make you a good player, it just made you a player, period.
This is a strategy game, not a "who can do mechanics the best" game, that's DDR.
The control groups just mean you're clicking less and getting the same results. Complaining about that is like saying "When I play *whatever shooter here*, why don't I have to remove the safety, check the clip by pulling it out, search for another magazine when I'm empty, fix jams, and oil/clean my gun after the match?". Because it's a game. We know the professionals are good enough to do the mechanical stuff right, why make them do it at all? It just detracts from the rest of the match, unit control, positioning, micro, split attention with drops, etc.
You'll notice, while you can now 1a your units, when you do you usually die. Good players still use massive numbers of control groups, or individually click and control them.
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On May 13 2011 06:49 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:39 d_so wrote:
inverse relationship: TL post count :: getting offended by this article.
also an SAT analogy back when it 1600 was the max score:
BW is to SC2 as _______________ is to playing the guitar.
a. Cooking
b. Riding a bike
c. Guitar Hero
d. Counterstrike
e. World of Warcraft
Posts like these from BW fans make me glad they have their own subforum. It's funny that none of the people that like SC2 talk down on BW but the other way around...?
Because BW is objectively the better game for right now? But it's no surprise, obviously a game that's been refined for a decade is going to be better than one that has been out for less than a year. It's practically impossible for SC2 to be as good or better right out the door.
On May 13 2011 06:53 Requizen wrote:
This is a strategy game, not a "who can do mechanics the best" game, that's DDR.
I mean, if you want to play chess in space, that's cool, but that's obviously not what Starcraft is and it's kind of weird that you're here if that's what you're interested in?
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On May 13 2011 06:49 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:39 d_so wrote:
inverse relationship: TL post count :: getting offended by this article.
also an SAT analogy back when it 1600 was the max score:
BW is to SC2 as _______________ is to playing the guitar.
a. Cooking
b. Riding a bike
c. Guitar Hero
d. Counterstrike
e. World of Warcraft
Posts like these from BW fans make me glad they have their own subforum. It's funny that none of the people that like SC2 talk down on BW but the other way around...?
Errr, to be fair many SC2 fans are talking trash about BW. But the BW guys started it though ^_^
Anyways this BW vs SC2 arguments are just silly anyways and to each their own thing.
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How come mediocre/bad players from WC3 are crushing face in SC2 while some of the "superstars" not so much?
Haven't they proved that they are better than every other WC3-player "in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn"?
Just to be smashed by inferior players in SC2 skill-level.
How is that different? Logically?
And how would you(or anyone) know that the mediocre players from BW/WC3 released their full potential in that game?
I've seen time and time again in other sports players failing hard, being laughing-stocks on the brink of retirement only to rise as superstars. And that's in the exact same sport.
How come possibilites like that are completely disregarded?
Also I remember a Norwegian player in the start of BW at one time was regarded by lots of people to be the player with the best raw talent in the world. He retired at what, 16?
Thinking about all the raw talent in the world, that will never been shown, should I discredit BW as a game? How can I enjoy it knowing that there are probably thousands of people with EXTREME talent that would smash around the bulk of the BW-players with their potential released, and most likely they will never even touch an RTS-game in their life.
With your point in mind I'll mention a bigger elephant.
The fact that BW is all Korean should immediately tell you that the competition is in your words; "cheapened". Think of all the unreleased potential in the world. How could you enjoy it for a second?
At any moment 15 year old Rayo from Argentina or whatever could pick-up BW and later become the best player in the world. Not very likely, but it's a real possibility. You can't just draw a magical line saying potential stims from and exists only in current and former BW-players, just because you want to.
Truth is Flash and JD although magical and mythical, the possibillity there are people out there in the world with the potential to be better BW-players than them is a lot bigger than the other way around.
I know about that possibility every time I see someone winning any world championship.
But why would I consider it and use it as a diminisher?
Why not focus on reality instead of fantasy.
Your fantasy SC2-players have names and BW-records, but untill they start owning up SC2 they are no more real than my nonamed unknown players. Also I guarantee that one day the best SC2-player in the world will be one of my guys.
My point is that the people that show through results that they are the best in SC2 are the best SC2-players. There are no diminisher, the ones that are winning are the best. Same goes for BW and WC3.
Unless fulfilled, potential is useless.
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EPT
