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On May 13 2011 06:20 jacobmarlow wrote:
SC1 is dying game. Sc1 has been taken out of the WCG and Blizzcon. I really hope BW players move over eventually to face a foreign scene much dedicated than they were in the SC1 era. Only then will find out whether all the shit coming out of intrigue's mouth has some merit to it.
If you had watched a single FPVOD of any current A-team progamer in BW then you'd know how ignorant this statement is and how correct intrigue is.
Just like you don't have to be shot to know it's bad, I don't have to see these players play SC2 to know they would dominate.
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way over discussed this is just uber biased BW opinion, thanks for the waste of time. your blaming a brand new game for not being at the same level that a 10year old (professionally) game is. and also blaming it for not having current sc1 pros switching. Its like if Hockey Version 2 came out with slightly different sized rink a few new and non drastic rules that maybe rewards fancy play than physical, and saying its HORRIBLE because its not INSTANLY (less than a year compared to a huge history of professionalism) at the same level is COMPLETELY retarded. Your thread has effort but no relavence. Your speaking like SC2 has had its Full chance and is still being dominated by SC1 gamers. Your points in this are EXTREMELY VAGUE too, and generally mean nothing. Oh the opinion of 1 person saying they didnt like Startales practice schedual means that all SC2 pro teams are crappy and not "worthy" of SC1. They are both amazing games and you need to not stuff you head up ur #$% and be more accepting. If its still like this in 10 years then your right but this is not the time for this call. And the point of SC1ers are way better at at SC2 having any relavence is WRONG. They are very similar games (OBVIOUSLY) so why is SC2 BAD because SC1 guys who have years of experience are better than new players. Even IF the BW switches were "Crappy" "Mediocre" players they would still stomp 99% of brand new aspiring BW pros that have ONLY been playing BW for a Year! I bet what i have said has been completely said in this post b4 by other comments but it is true this is very bad to have on the news in TL very bad..
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I like that there is a least a little spice and a strong opinion in this article but the premise is ridiculous. Not everyone cares about having the best robot come over from Korea to bow to the rest of the world and show us that by devoting 12 hours a day every day he can be the best. I couldn't give two shits whether there is some kid out there playing C&C that could come on the scene and dominate until he actually does. Until then I won't pretend I know how good he would be if he switched over because I won't be thinking about him because it is irrelevant to watching this game. Also SC2 is global and I already have players to watch that I can actually follow and care about that aren't emotionless robots.
For instance, I am not going to throw my hands up in the air in disgust when watching TF2 casts because my some of the best CS 1.6 players don't play TF2. Furthermore I am certainly not going to to get all butthurt and declare that it is some elephant in the room and that they would DOMINATE because their aim is so good. Instead what I do is deal with it and enjoy the level of play that I see instead of speculating about how great other players would be with no proof and no purpose unless it actually happens and if this effects how I view TF2 then I will just stop watching it, problem solved.
Out of the entire article I think the thing I cared least about was this.
Hot_bid
.....it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
Which begs the obvious question, how is that anything other than meaningless conjecture? And why if I am not having wet dreams over BW should I care at all?
It isn't relevant at all to what I do care about which is SC2. It is cool for there to be BW fanboys but keep it within your game and don't expect to be taken seriously when the base your entire argument on BW stats. I just couldn't care less about how people want to compare BW and its players to SC2.
On a side note Hot_bid's argument here just reeks so heavily of fanboy that is makes me tear up.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
Yeah except no, this statement is just insane. If these guys would be so good at anything to go into then why don't they choose something more profitable which as the OP originally points out is keeping them in BW. They could be professional poker players or cure cancer or they could stick to games that their skill set is maximized in. Until they try their hand at something different but with a similar skill set lets pretend it doesn't matter because until then it really doesn't.
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Even though I agree with the OPs content, I should add that writing this thread up was completely unecessary, imo, and serves only as flame bait which antagonizes an entire community (the new to SC players who recently got into sc2). Anybody who followed BW knows this already. Anybody who didn't doesn't need to know. Ignorance is bliss.
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On May 13 2011 06:25 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:20 jacobmarlow wrote:
SC1 is dying game. Sc1 has been taken out of the WCG and Blizzcon. I really hope BW players move over eventually to face a foreign scene much dedicated than they were in the SC1 era. Only then will find out whether all the shit coming out of intrigue's mouth has some merit to it. If you had watched a single FPVOD of any current A-team progamer in BW then you'd know how ignorant this statement is and how correct intrigue is. Just like you don't have to be shot to know it's bad, I don't have to see these players play SC2 to know they would dominate.
That is such a dumb analogy, I don't have to be shot to know how bad it is because I've seen other people's reaction to bullet wounds.
I have seen former BW players do well, I've seen former BW players perform poorly, I've seen non-BW players do well, I've seen non-BW players with mediocre results. So now, I don't think those players would crush SC2's current competitive scene, the cream of the crop would likely do very well though.
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On May 13 2011 06:20 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:17 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:13 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:09 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:07 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:04 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:01 Cathasaigh wrote:On May 13 2011 05:47 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 05:33 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 05:26 dangots0ul wrote:
[quote]
The only "above-average" from BW is MVP. Don't say some cause there are only guys with less than 50% win average, washed up old pros and B-team trainer partners.
saying "its a different game" doesn't auto prove shit - as your petty mind may think.
Its a god damn pattern. Of the like 20-30 former BW players than went over They occupy top 8 out of 10.
But i guess that means nothing because "its a different game"
Please get your "fucking" point together before you try to make sense of it with content less statements.
try again Nice try, but if you want to base it on the article in particular, it makes stretches itself when it lists the "above average" BW pros, and I'm referring to the article, here being Rainbow and Ace mentioned in the article. Their success has been middling at best. There are plenty of non-BW players who are up and coming and doing well, obviously players with previous RTS experience are going to be the first to excel in the scene, there isn't some huge clear cut pattern for BW though. In the foreign scene, some BW pros are getting beaten by players from other RTSs or even players with little RTS experience at all. Some basics carry over but it's not a 1 to 1 and there isn't even a seriously visible pattern, at the start obviously the people from BW were going to look good, but now the ones who are actually making an effort to stay relevant are staying relevant. The post actually mentions a number of successful non-BW players, but dismisses them because they don't make his point. It's kind of silly. The article is wrong. Rainbows last game was 08. The three years up to his last game he was 20-31. He was decent way way back, but he would fall into the washed up old pros category with Boxer and Nada. I think the Ace thing is a joke. Or by distinction he doesn't mean distinction in terms of skill. Dude, as far as I can remember, was a B-team scrub and occasional proleague appearences. Now your making more sense. But your proving the OPs point. If Flash come to SC2 now, it would be reasonable, that he would tear it up. A few years from now, he may not tear it up as he would now or even as quickly. THe point is, Flash and JD have general RTS skills that have been cultivated and weeded out through an intense 10 year old system. There is something about these individuals that make them good at RTS (just like now the BW scrubs are tearing it up now). This is OPs point. IF Flash came in the future its not a question of IF but WHEN (assuming SC2 just doesn't cultivate a super-Flash, if i may, by then but seems unlikely with the work ethic SC2 players current have due to team strucutring compaired to BW). Maybe OP is bias, but this doesn't mean he doesn't have a point. No... the OP's point was that the top 300 bw pros and semi-pros would be better than people in sc2 if they switched. Most people don't have a problem with saying that Flash or JD would be at the top of sc2 if they switched but to say that the top 300 would easily be at the top of the sc2 scene if they switched is just retarded. "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games." - intrigue Learn2read. When is someone who both understands english and stops constructing strawman arguments going to say something. How is that far and away from what he said? 300 Brood War pros have the potential to walk over and shit on the pro scene in SC2 at any moment after a couple of months. He goes on to say that it cheapens the competition right now, further implying that the players right now would just get dominated if the REAL pros got serious about SC2. What the fuck are we not comprehending, where is our strawman? What you said: the OP's point was that the top 300 bw pros and semi-pros would be better than people in sc2 if they switched. What OP says: I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the POTENTIAL to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment God, I am like the best at teaching 3rd graders (I dont judge how many times you have repeated) Why the fuck would he go on to say that it cheapens the competition right now unless he's implying that those 300 BW pros would dominate the current scene. Sure, any number of people have the potential to come into any sports scene and do well, but that wouldn't cheapen the opinion of the current play in that scene unless you're saying the current play is shit compared to the play of the other potential players. Where is your reading comprehension? "Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. " This is him saying he can't guarentee shit for 298 of the 300 players. But its likely/they have good potential. Reading comprehension next lesson. YOU need to learn to walk before you run. I agree with Hot_Bid for the most part, just not with the OP, he's not letting Hot_Bid make his point for him because he then goes on to make his own fucking point which is not what Hot_Bid said, and is something I don't agree with at all. If you go by Hot_Bid's quote, that would have no effect on the current quality, or bring up the statement that SC2's current competitive scene is a farce.
Intrigue: "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games."
AMONG THIS GROUP THERE ARE A NOTABLE FEW THAT CRUSH...
He is saying this farce is for him (and maybe some others who watch the scene). Do you have to accept it? No. Just because JD and Flash, which you seem to agree are beasts, aren't in SC2 does it make it not worth watching? This is relative.
If you can enjoy sc2 than go for it. But you enjoy it despite there being some top top talent in a different RTS that would likely be top top talent in this RTS.
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^ MVP was #1 on Ladder right away. Fruitdealer was known as the best during the beta. Nestea and MC took a bit to bloom, but were no small players since the beginning. These guys dominated right away, and it wasnt like in the first year the game was populated with a lot of nobodies. Isn't everyone on Grandmaster a someone from BW?
So I don't think it's ridiculous to say they would dominate in 2 weeks when Fruitdealer, one of the best BW players to come to SC2, was the best player the first week the game came out. MVP was amazing even in seasons 1 and 2 of the GSL (just some bad rounds is all, amazing play by him in those seasons) and was arguably the best player in GSL S1 and S2 - and he was a BW pro.
So I wouldn't be surprised at all if it took 2 weeks for these guys to make a name for themselves. Will they win a GSL? Maybe, maybe not. But after a month of training, would they make it into the GSL? Probably.
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On May 13 2011 06:28 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:25 On_Slaught wrote:On May 13 2011 06:20 jacobmarlow wrote:
SC1 is dying game. Sc1 has been taken out of the WCG and Blizzcon. I really hope BW players move over eventually to face a foreign scene much dedicated than they were in the SC1 era. Only then will find out whether all the shit coming out of intrigue's mouth has some merit to it. If you had watched a single FPVOD of any current A-team progamer in BW then you'd know how ignorant this statement is and how correct intrigue is. Just like you don't have to be shot to know it's bad, I don't have to see these players play SC2 to know they would dominate. That is such a dumb analogy, I don't have to be shot to know how bad it is because I've seen other people's reaction to bullet wounds. I have seen former BW players do well, I've seen former BW players perform poorly, I've seen non-BW players do well, I've seen non-BW players with mediocre results.
Sigh, way to fail to grasp the concept at all.
I see somebody get shot in the head, I know that is bad.
I watch a FPVOD of any progamer (which you clearly haven't done) and compare it to ANY progamer stream you've seen in SC2, and you will be blown away.
It isn't even comparable. It is completely intuitive.
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On May 13 2011 06:22 Cathasaigh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:19 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:16 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:11 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:07 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:04 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:01 Cathasaigh wrote:On May 13 2011 05:47 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 05:33 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 05:26 dangots0ul wrote:
[quote]
The only "above-average" from BW is MVP. Don't say some cause there are only guys with less than 50% win average, washed up old pros and B-team trainer partners.
saying "its a different game" doesn't auto prove shit - as your petty mind may think.
Its a god damn pattern. Of the like 20-30 former BW players than went over They occupy top 8 out of 10.
But i guess that means nothing because "its a different game"
Please get your "fucking" point together before you try to make sense of it with content less statements.
try again Nice try, but if you want to base it on the article in particular, it makes stretches itself when it lists the "above average" BW pros, and I'm referring to the article, here being Rainbow and Ace mentioned in the article. Their success has been middling at best. There are plenty of non-BW players who are up and coming and doing well, obviously players with previous RTS experience are going to be the first to excel in the scene, there isn't some huge clear cut pattern for BW though. In the foreign scene, some BW pros are getting beaten by players from other RTSs or even players with little RTS experience at all. Some basics carry over but it's not a 1 to 1 and there isn't even a seriously visible pattern, at the start obviously the people from BW were going to look good, but now the ones who are actually making an effort to stay relevant are staying relevant. The post actually mentions a number of successful non-BW players, but dismisses them because they don't make his point. It's kind of silly. The article is wrong. Rainbows last game was 08. The three years up to his last game he was 20-31. He was decent way way back, but he would fall into the washed up old pros category with Boxer and Nada. I think the Ace thing is a joke. Or by distinction he doesn't mean distinction in terms of skill. Dude, as far as I can remember, was a B-team scrub and occasional proleague appearences. Now your making more sense. But your proving the OPs point. If Flash come to SC2 now, it would be reasonable, that he would tear it up. A few years from now, he may not tear it up as he would now or even as quickly. THe point is, Flash and JD have general RTS skills that have been cultivated and weeded out through an intense 10 year old system. There is something about these individuals that make them good at RTS (just like now the BW scrubs are tearing it up now). This is OPs point. IF Flash came in the future its not a question of IF but WHEN (assuming SC2 just doesn't cultivate a super-Flash, if i may, by then but seems unlikely with the work ethic SC2 players current have due to team strucutring compaired to BW). Maybe OP is bias, but this doesn't mean he doesn't have a point. No... the OP's point was that the top 300 bw pros and semi-pros would be better than people in sc2 if they switched. Most people don't have a problem with saying that Flash or JD would be at the top of sc2 if they switched but to say that the top 300 would easily be at the top of the sc2 scene if they switched is just retarded. "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games." - intrigue Learn2read. When is someone who both understands english and stops constructing strawman arguments going to say something. How is that far and away from what he said? 300 Brood War pros have the potential to walk over and shit on the pro scene in SC2 at any moment after a couple of months. He goes on to say that it cheapens the competition right now, further implying that the players right now would just get dominated if the REAL pros got serious about SC2. What the fuck are we not comprehending, where is our strawman? Heres a little extra credit, cause I don't want to see you back here next year: "Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. " Leta and Zero are in this weeks Power Rank. child please. You're quoting Hot_Bid now, who I said I agree with more than the OP, because the OP uses that quote and goes in an entirely different direction. Holy fuck, for someone as condescending as you, you don't read all that much yourself, I've made a previous statement with regards to that quote, it's out of place because the OP's conclusion is different from Hot_Bid's and most people have agreed with Hot_Bid's statement about the outliers, Flash and Jaedong, just not the other part about the pro BW players being able to trounce the current top SC2 players should they choose to come over. Don't get your panties in a bunch. Why would he quote Hot Bid if he disagreed with him? HMMMMMMMM "I'll save my arguing energy for responding to your comments. A friend of mine wanted to take this part:" intrigue made his point and hotbid made his, those 2 points weren't identical and most people agree with what hotbid said but not with what intrigue said. You however seem to be putting those 2 statements together and counting them as 1 when they aren't.
There are similarities
1) They seem to agree that there is some great potential in BW players
2) Flash and JD are untouchable
Intrigue only continues to say HE can't enjoy the game because of this.
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Great article that nicely summarizes my view on my mancrush, Flash. Game-sense and understanding are things that just come with time and practice. Nobody comes into a game with that, but if anyone has an upperhand in getting that it's someone with the practice regime and dedication to acquire it (ie, Flash/Jaedong/Bisu).
Beyond that, obviously, the simple physical and mental skills of RTS multitasking are obviously far more present in the far better players. As the article notes, imagine someone with anything a current SC2 pro's level of game knowledge but with Flash's multitasking.
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On May 13 2011 06:28 dangots0ul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:20 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:17 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:13 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:09 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:07 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:04 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:01 Cathasaigh wrote:On May 13 2011 05:47 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 05:33 Mordiford wrote:
[quote]
Nice try, but if you want to base it on the article in particular, it makes stretches itself when it lists the "above average" BW pros, and I'm referring to the article, here being Rainbow and Ace mentioned in the article. Their success has been middling at best. There are plenty of non-BW players who are up and coming and doing well, obviously players with previous RTS experience are going to be the first to excel in the scene, there isn't some huge clear cut pattern for BW though.
In the foreign scene, some BW pros are getting beaten by players from other RTSs or even players with little RTS experience at all. Some basics carry over but it's not a 1 to 1 and there isn't even a seriously visible pattern, at the start obviously the people from BW were going to look good, but now the ones who are actually making an effort to stay relevant are staying relevant. The post actually mentions a number of successful non-BW players, but dismisses them because they don't make his point.
It's kind of silly.
The article is wrong. Rainbows last game was 08. The three years up to his last game he was 20-31. He was decent way way back, but he would fall into the washed up old pros category with Boxer and Nada. I think the Ace thing is a joke. Or by distinction he doesn't mean distinction in terms of skill. Dude, as far as I can remember, was a B-team scrub and occasional proleague appearences. Now your making more sense. But your proving the OPs point. If Flash come to SC2 now, it would be reasonable, that he would tear it up. A few years from now, he may not tear it up as he would now or even as quickly. THe point is, Flash and JD have general RTS skills that have been cultivated and weeded out through an intense 10 year old system. There is something about these individuals that make them good at RTS (just like now the BW scrubs are tearing it up now). This is OPs point. IF Flash came in the future its not a question of IF but WHEN (assuming SC2 just doesn't cultivate a super-Flash, if i may, by then but seems unlikely with the work ethic SC2 players current have due to team strucutring compaired to BW). Maybe OP is bias, but this doesn't mean he doesn't have a point. No... the OP's point was that the top 300 bw pros and semi-pros would be better than people in sc2 if they switched. Most people don't have a problem with saying that Flash or JD would be at the top of sc2 if they switched but to say that the top 300 would easily be at the top of the sc2 scene if they switched is just retarded. "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games." - intrigue Learn2read. When is someone who both understands english and stops constructing strawman arguments going to say something. How is that far and away from what he said? 300 Brood War pros have the potential to walk over and shit on the pro scene in SC2 at any moment after a couple of months. He goes on to say that it cheapens the competition right now, further implying that the players right now would just get dominated if the REAL pros got serious about SC2. What the fuck are we not comprehending, where is our strawman? What you said: the OP's point was that the top 300 bw pros and semi-pros would be better than people in sc2 if they switched. What OP says: I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the POTENTIAL to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment God, I am like the best at teaching 3rd graders (I dont judge how many times you have repeated) Why the fuck would he go on to say that it cheapens the competition right now unless he's implying that those 300 BW pros would dominate the current scene. Sure, any number of people have the potential to come into any sports scene and do well, but that wouldn't cheapen the opinion of the current play in that scene unless you're saying the current play is shit compared to the play of the other potential players. Where is your reading comprehension? "Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. " This is him saying he can't guarentee shit for 298 of the 300 players. But its likely/they have good potential. Reading comprehension next lesson. YOU need to learn to walk before you run. I agree with Hot_Bid for the most part, just not with the OP, he's not letting Hot_Bid make his point for him because he then goes on to make his own fucking point which is not what Hot_Bid said, and is something I don't agree with at all. If you go by Hot_Bid's quote, that would have no effect on the current quality, or bring up the statement that SC2's current competitive scene is a farce. Intrigue: "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games." AMONG THIS GROUP THERE ARE A NOTABLE FEW THAT CRUSH... He is saying this farce is for him (and maybe some others who watch the scene). Do you have to accept it? No. Just because JD and Flash, which you seem to agree are beasts, aren't in SC2 does it make it not worth watching? This is relative. If you can enjoy sc2 than go for it. But you enjoy it despite there being some top top talent in a different RTS that would likely be top top talent in this RTS.
Are you... fucking joking?
"300 current pros and semi-pros have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment".
He then goes on to say some would absolutely shit on everyone. Neither of which I agree with, there would be some who would dominate the scene and compete at the top level, but no even for Flash and Jaedong I don't think it'd be, "Oh shit, they're here now, we're all pretty much fucked", for the top players in SC2 when they finally transfer over. He goes on to say the current scene is farce, sure that may be more relevant to some than others, but it ultimately affirms the idea that the current SC2 scene is garbage and is tainted because all of them are just place-holding and when the BW pros get interested in SC2, they'll get fucked.
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On May 13 2011 06:22 trashcan wrote:
The gorilla in the room is the disappointment in SC2 and it's lack of depth.
I'm a C+ Brood War player. When I see SC2 players do things, I'm never impressed. In my mind I think I CAN DO THAT. Which is the mindset that caused the article. There's very little respect for the skill shown so far by the top players. No fault to them, it's just the way the game is designed. I don't feel awed when I see Mvp marine split. I can do that, sorry. Or when someone casts force fields. How is that impressive in any way?
SC2 has produced entertaining games but very few have been due to micro or unit control. It's mainly builds that make SC2 games and decision making. Now recall all the games where player physical skill singlehandedly decided the outcome in Brood War. Vulture drops, wraith control, reaver control, 2 hatch mutas, the list goes on.
The disappointment is players can no longer showcase that sort of skill.
The fact that you have imperfect information in Starcraft already makes the game difficult. The game should depend on your decisions and your plan, not whether you can make 10 marines out of 10 barracks individually in 3 seconds. What you do with that 10 marines should be the deal.
Starcraft 2 is an improvement in this sense, even if you don't agree with the reason, it should have happened because it makes sense. There is no excuse to keeping inferior game engine purely because it makes it harder when you can.
Chess requires no physical skill. It has perfect information available to both players. Is it an inferior game?
Of course, these are all my opinions. And everyone is entitled to their own.
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On May 13 2011 06:30 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:28 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:25 On_Slaught wrote:On May 13 2011 06:20 jacobmarlow wrote:
SC1 is dying game. Sc1 has been taken out of the WCG and Blizzcon. I really hope BW players move over eventually to face a foreign scene much dedicated than they were in the SC1 era. Only then will find out whether all the shit coming out of intrigue's mouth has some merit to it. If you had watched a single FPVOD of any current A-team progamer in BW then you'd know how ignorant this statement is and how correct intrigue is. Just like you don't have to be shot to know it's bad, I don't have to see these players play SC2 to know they would dominate. That is such a dumb analogy, I don't have to be shot to know how bad it is because I've seen other people's reaction to bullet wounds. I have seen former BW players do well, I've seen former BW players perform poorly, I've seen non-BW players do well, I've seen non-BW players with mediocre results. Sigh, way to fail to grasp the concept at all. I see somebody get shot in the head, I know that is bad. I watch a FPVOD of any progamer (which you clearly haven't done) and compare it to ANY progamer stream you've seen in SC2, and you will be blown away. It isn't even comparable. It is completely intuitive.
Word.
Keep in mind your to find it difficult to get any solid FPVOD where the player in 100% on his shit. More like him playing casually and chatting with a commentator trying to make him laugh. And that shit will still make you dizzy.
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United States8 Posts
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On May 13 2011 06:20 jacobmarlow wrote:
SC1 is dying game. Sc1 has been taken out of the WCG and Blizzcon. I really hope BW players move over eventually to face a foreign scene much dedicated than they were in the SC1 era. Only then will find out whether all the shit coming out of intrigue's mouth has some merit to it.
LMAO. You wish. SC2 has a long way to go before it can overtake BW. It is still the greatest RTS. Maybe SC2 can be uttered in the same sentence if Blizzard fix all the balance flaws, add LAN and help facilitate the growth of a community that lives it and breath it. If not, then 90% if its player base will move on to newer things 1 year after the last expansion gets released. Talk to me again when SC2 survives for 10 years.
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Not sure what this article attempts to do besides cheapen the current SC2 competitive scene.
Heres some food for thought: Some of us weren't into broodwar and don't particularly care about Korean pro gamers! (*gasp*) We don't care if some guy in Korea decided to switch he could dominate the competition. Some people fail to realize broodwar was a niche scene for the most part, and SC2 has a must larger and more casual player base.
Also, I believe the skill gap between the average broodwar pro and the elite broodwar pros would be greatly minimized in SC2 due to its inherent noob friendly mechanics. I'm not sure Flash would stomp MC 10 out of 10 games even after playing sc2 for a few months.
In the end, though, I just think many of us don't care. We didn't all follow the broodwar scene for 10 years and play the game for even longer. We bought sc2 because we enjoy RTS games and its new, exciting, and up-to-date.
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South Africa4316 Posts
The article is written too abrasively which makes many people miss the point. The point of the article is not that current SC2 is a terrible game to watch, not at all, it's that, as good as SC2 is now, it can get a whole lot better. In this way, I think the school football example is apt (given that there's no NFL available at the same time). Perhaps an even better example would be looking back at the way sports/esports were played in the past.
If you compare Boxer playing BW in 2001 with current progamers, he looks like absolute shit. That doesn't mean he wasn't amazing at the time, or that his games were not enjoyable. In fact, he became a legend during 2001-2003, even though he wouldn't be able to beat the worst B-teamer today using his play from 2001. The parallel can be drawn to SC2, with MC/MVP/Naniwa playing like shit compared to SC2 players ten years from now. That doesn't mean that they are not amazing, I love watching them play. However, to those who follwed BW and saw it being refined to perfection, it is clear that SC2 can still develop a lot. As intrigue argues, that has a lot to do with training regimes and getting the most talented players to participate. However, it has just as much to do with the game's development over time, and that's a great thing in my opinion. I love watching SC2 now, and as long as it keeps developing, I'll love watching SC2 five years from now as well.
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On May 13 2011 06:22 trashcan wrote:
The gorilla in the room is the disappointment in SC2 and it's lack of depth.
I'm a C+ Brood War player. When I see SC2 players do things, I'm never impressed. In my mind I think I CAN DO THAT. Which is the mindset that caused the article. There's very little respect for the skill shown so far by the top players. No fault to them, it's just the way the game is designed. I don't feel awed when I see Mvp marine split. I can do that, sorry. Or when someone casts force fields. How is that impressive in any way?
SC2 has produced entertaining games but very few have been due to micro or unit control. It's mainly builds that make SC2 games and decision making. Now recall all the games where player physical skill singlehandedly decided the outcome in Brood War. Vulture drops, wraith control, reaver control, 2 hatch mutas, the list goes on.
The disappointment is players can no longer showcase that sort of skill.
What really makes me roll my eyes whenever I'm watching an SC2 game is that every friggin time a protoss player places a bunch of force fields, the commentators go "omg amazing forcefields!!!"
I agree that SC2 has never amazed me in terms of displays of skill. Even if SC2 requires lots of skill, the for the most part, the skill required isn't the type that will amaze spectators. There is some pretty sick multitasking in some games but even then, it's only when I view it from a BW perspective. When I realize that SC2's simplified mechanics make it far easier to multitask efficiently, it feels a lot less amazing.
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inverse relationship: TL post count :: getting offended by this article.
also an SAT analogy back when it 1600 was the max score:
BW is to SC2 as _______________ is to playing the guitar.
a. Cooking
b. Riding a bike
c. Guitar Hero
d. Counterstrike
e. World of Warcraft
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100+ of comments. At the end I'm just  Why?
At least there were a few gems of humor thrown in there.
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EPT
