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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:21 mitthrawn wrote:
The writer of this article must be a huge bitter SC:BW vet. :D
It's lovely how much better the new SC2-fans are at TeamLiquid are than us bitter SC:BW vets, that they get to judge this article like the above poster without ever having contributed ANYTHING to this website. The amount of people coming out and bashing the OP and defending their precious SC2 while making ignorant claims about BW is disgusting.
Does anyone else think there should be an SC2 TL and the original TL? At least that way both parties wouldn't have to deal with the other, and any violating members would just get auto-banned. I personally can't stand seeing another post like this in this thread, and I am less than a fifth of the way through the thread. I am trying hard to be civil about this, but there is so much hate inside of me for SC2 fanboys at this point.
To all of you who have been fighting to defend SC2 (notably the ones who took this as an SC2-bash thread and the ones who don't accept that competition is stronger in BW and that BW pros would roll SC2): you're wrong. BW is vastly superior to SC2 right now despite the fact that SC2 has BW training and strategy-investigation to work off of because SC2 players don't work as hard and are thus simply not as good as BW players. All the sports analogies fail to take this into account.
EDIT: It's more like the elephant got beaten for being too smart and hidden under the rug, because the majority of TL is now SC2 fans.
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On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true.
Just....No.
Bad control scheme is never a good thing. By this logic making the game so players have to play bejeweled while they build units would also make the game more competitive.
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On May 13 2011 06:55 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true. Just....No. Bad control scheme is never a good thing. By this logic making the game so players have to play bejeweled while they build units would also make the game more competitive.
But then this logic suggests games that play themselves are the greatest games of all
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On May 13 2011 06:40 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +He then goes on to say some would absolutely shit on everyone. Neither of which I agree with, there would be some who would dominate the scene and compete at the top level, but no even for Flash and Jaedong I don't think it'd be, "Oh shit, they're here now, we're all pretty much fucked", for the top players in SC2 when they finally transfer over. He goes on to say the current scene is farce, sure that may be more relevant to some than others, but it ultimately affirms the idea that the current SC2 scene is garbage and is tainted because all of them are just place-holding and when the BW pros get interested in SC2, they'll get fucked. Right.. and it makes sense doesn't it? 1. Best SC2 players were players in BW. 2. The better they did in BW, correlates to performance in SC2. 3. There exist players leagues ahead of the current best in SC2 that didn't leave BW. What is so controversial, hard to understand, and oddly aggravating to you people about this? Why aren't people getting warned for flaming the OP? It's a completely logical argument, maybe they won't crush in 2 weeks and the OP is exaggerating, but considering Fruitdealer was INSTANTLY good at SC2, that Nestea and MVP were arguably the best players by the 2nd GSL season, wouldn't you think such big names like Jaedong and Flash (who I don't even know whom they are, mind you, as someone who never played or watched BW besides customs as a kid) would begin making at least a name for themselves in 2 months, and perhaps major tournament results in the same time as the current best - within 3 months? And given how much better they were in BW than current SC2 stars, maybe 2 weeks isn't that far-fetched? I can only imagine people flaming the OP didn't watch BW or something, and BW kicked their dog. Because I think BW is boring, I don't like watching it, I don't know anything about it (my ignorance probably the reason I think it's boring, mind you) - so if my opinion is this way as someone who dislikes BW, I can't imagine what twisted ignorance would make people flame the OP. Obviously you must be ignorant about BW, just like me.... only more so?
Only, that's not really the case, more-so in the foreign scene but even in the Korean scene, the BW players only obviously had a head start because of the similarities of the game early on, now if you look at it, you have former BW pros doing well, former BW pros doing poorly, non-BW players doing well, non-BW players doing poorly, and everything in between. The current top players in SC2 aren't all players from BW, and it's still the first year or so.
On May 13 2011 06:41 dangots0ul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:34 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:28 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:20 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:17 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:13 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:09 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:07 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 06:04 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 06:01 Cathasaigh wrote:
[quote]
No... the OP's point was that the top 300 bw pros and semi-pros would be better than people in sc2 if they switched. Most people don't have a problem with saying that Flash or JD would be at the top of sc2 if they switched but to say that the top 300 would easily be at the top of the sc2 scene if they switched is just retarded. "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games." - intrigue Learn2read. When is someone who both understands english and stops constructing strawman arguments going to say something. How is that far and away from what he said? 300 Brood War pros have the potential to walk over and shit on the pro scene in SC2 at any moment after a couple of months. He goes on to say that it cheapens the competition right now, further implying that the players right now would just get dominated if the REAL pros got serious about SC2. What the fuck are we not comprehending, where is our strawman? What you said: the OP's point was that the top 300 bw pros and semi-pros would be better than people in sc2 if they switched. What OP says: I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the POTENTIAL to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment God, I am like the best at teaching 3rd graders (I dont judge how many times you have repeated) Why the fuck would he go on to say that it cheapens the competition right now unless he's implying that those 300 BW pros would dominate the current scene. Sure, any number of people have the potential to come into any sports scene and do well, but that wouldn't cheapen the opinion of the current play in that scene unless you're saying the current play is shit compared to the play of the other potential players. Where is your reading comprehension? "Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. " This is him saying he can't guarentee shit for 298 of the 300 players. But its likely/they have good potential. Reading comprehension next lesson. YOU need to learn to walk before you run. I agree with Hot_Bid for the most part, just not with the OP, he's not letting Hot_Bid make his point for him because he then goes on to make his own fucking point which is not what Hot_Bid said, and is something I don't agree with at all. If you go by Hot_Bid's quote, that would have no effect on the current quality, or bring up the statement that SC2's current competitive scene is a farce. Intrigue: "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games." AMONG THIS GROUP THERE ARE A NOTABLE FEW THAT CRUSH... He is saying this farce is for him (and maybe some others who watch the scene). Do you have to accept it? No. Just because JD and Flash, which you seem to agree are beasts, aren't in SC2 does it make it not worth watching? This is relative. If you can enjoy sc2 than go for it. But you enjoy it despite there being some top top talent in a different RTS that would likely be top top talent in this RTS. Are you... fucking joking? "300 current pros and semi-pros have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment". He then goes on to say some would absolutely shit on everyone. Neither of which I agree with, there would be some who would dominate the scene and compete at the top level, but no even for Flash and Jaedong I don't think it'd be, "Oh shit, they're here now, we're all pretty much fucked", for the top players in SC2 when they finally transfer over. He goes on to say the current scene is farce, sure that may be more relevant to some than others, but it ultimately affirms the idea that the current SC2 scene is garbage and is tainted because all of them are just place-holding and when the BW pros get interested in SC2, they'll get fucked. Opps, confused you with Moron #2. You guys are quite similar in many ways. Regardless, you need to stop making everything relative to yourself. Never did he say if BW ppl game next day top300 would be BW players. He said its a farce to HIM. As for your disagreement. Every other post will tell you why your statistically wrong and after that you just have blind faith... If intrigue had lead you think its garbage and tainted then LOL @ YOU and good for him cause he fucked with your head and got his point across. If this doesn't bother you then your doing a shitty job showing (not showing?) it. God, what i waste of time it is to respond to you. You have said the same thing 4 times and made everything relative to self and also had a period.
Except that his attitude towards the game is reflected in the post as a whole and when you say that the competition is a farce and then go on to mention why you think so, it's kind of fucking obvious where you stand, you can't be like, "Hey this is subjective but he's objectively saying that".
So, in HIS opinion the current competition is a farce, but objectively the top 300 BW players would likely dominate the scene and this is a totally moderate statement? The wording of the post in general is dismissive towards the current SC2 competitive scene.
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On May 13 2011 06:46 Vorlik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true. You want to remove an intuitive user friendly interface? What you're suggesting is moving backwards to the outdated interface of sc1. It's silly to make the game unnecessarily harder. It's not like the audience is going to be in awe at the raw skill because progamers are limited to 12 vs infinite. There are plenty of other ways to showcase skill, much still undiscovered (=
this isnt true. simple example, look at quake. ofcourse you could make strafejumping take no skill whatsoever and just make normal jumping just as fast. but it would make the game much less skillful and exciting.
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On May 13 2011 06:57 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:55 Medrea wrote:On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true. Just....No. Bad control scheme is never a good thing. By this logic making the game so players have to play bejeweled while they build units would also make the game more competitive. But then this logic suggests games that play themselves are the greatest games of all
It means that games with good control schemes are the greatest games of all.
Which they are.
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I'm so glad that this post was made, it's really helped bring everyone here together, BW and SC II fan alike... Oh wait, it's done the complete opposite for 115 pages, thanks dickhead.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 13 2011 06:57 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
this isnt true. simple example, look at quake. ofcourse you could make strafejumping take no skill whatsoever and just make normal jumping just as fast. but it would make the game much less skillful and exciting.
u are comparing two different things. strafejumping in quake is like magicbox or stutter walk in sc2.
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On May 13 2011 06:59 Weird wrote:
I'm so glad that this post was made, it's really helped bring everyone here together, BW and SC II fan alike... Oh wait, it's done the complete opposite for 115 pages, thanks dickhead.
Its ok, the OP is quite clearly a venting ladder player if you look at the language of the entire post. "I cant wait until BW pros come and stomp all these guys" is the sentiment that im getting. Move along.
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On May 13 2011 06:57 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:46 Vorlik wrote:On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true. You want to remove an intuitive user friendly interface? What you're suggesting is moving backwards to the outdated interface of sc1. It's silly to make the game unnecessarily harder. It's not like the audience is going to be in awe at the raw skill because progamers are limited to 12 vs infinite. There are plenty of other ways to showcase skill, much still undiscovered (= this isnt true. simple example, look at quake. ofcourse you could make strafejumping take no skill whatsoever and just make normal jumping just as fast. but it would make the game much less skillful and exciting.
Yeah, but you could also say playing the Guitar would take more skill if the strings came untuned every 5 seconds and they had to retune them while they played, but that doesn't make playing Guitar any less skillful. More intuitive != dumber, it just means streamlined.
You're like the person who codes in Assembly because he's too stubborn to switch, even though in any other language you could accomplish the same thing in 1/5 as many lines.
inb4 "Assembly is more powerful!" arguments.
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So the first final edit that was made in 7 months was made almost purely to feed trolls?
Why would someone put so much effort into this if they knew all they'd get in the end was a giant troll thread? This doesn't make any sense at all.
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On May 13 2011 06:55 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:41 On_Slaught wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE FUCKING CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true. Just....No. Bad control scheme is never a good thing. By this logic making the game so players have to play bejeweled while they build units would also make the game more competitive.
Agreed. The best way to make it more competitive and raise the skill cap would be to add in units and spells which reward micro.
Vultures and reaver/shuttle combo's are great examples of this. So is pretty much any spell that has to be targeted (dark swarm, storm, plague)
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On May 13 2011 06:49 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:39 d_so wrote:
inverse relationship: TL post count :: getting offended by this article.
also an SAT analogy back when it 1600 was the max score:
BW is to SC2 as _______________ is to playing the guitar.
a. Cooking
b. Riding a bike
c. Guitar Hero
d. Counterstrike
e. World of Warcraft
Posts like these from BW fans make me glad they have their own subforum. It's funny that none of the people that like SC2 talk down on BW but the other way around...?
You can't talk down to something that is superior 
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 13 2011 06:59 Weird wrote:
I'm so glad that this post was made, it's really helped bring everyone here together, BW and SC II fan alike... Oh wait, it's done the complete opposite for 115 pages, thanks dickhead.
No, I think it was the stupidity that arose from all the SC2 fans that has been doing that for over a year, and the BW fans trying to get simple concepts into their thick skulls, then the SC2 fans being pissed that they are being (rightfully) talked down to. This is just the best thread to vent that, and if you look through the thread, it's a pretty even division between people who take shits on this thread/argue with the OP while having no understanding of BW and people who agree with it.
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On May 13 2011 06:54 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:21 mitthrawn wrote:
The writer of this article must be a huge bitter SC:BW vet. :D It's lovely how much better the new SC2-fans are at TeamLiquid are than us bitter SC:BW vets, that they get to judge this article like the above poster without ever having contributed ANYTHING to this website. The amount of people coming out and bashing the OP and defending their precious SC2 while making ignorant claims about BW is disgusting. Does anyone else think there should be an SC2 TL and the original TL? At least that way both parties wouldn't have to deal with the other, and any violating members would just get auto-banned. I personally can't stand seeing another post like this in this thread, and I am less than a fifth of the way through the thread. I am trying hard to be civil about this, but there is so much hate inside of me for SC2 fanboys at this point. To all of you who have been fighting to defend SC2 (notably the ones who took this as an SC2-bash thread and the ones who don't accept that competition is stronger in BW and that BW pros would roll SC2): you're wrong. BW is vastly superior to SC2 right now despite the fact that SC2 has BW training and strategy-investigation to work off of because SC2 players don't work as hard and are thus simply not as good as BW players. All the sports analogies fail to take this into account. EDIT: It's more like the elephant got beaten for being too smart and hidden under the rug, because the majority of TL is now SC2 fans.
I think you just hurt the BW community a lot more than the SC2 community. But there are actually seperate forums for bw and for SC2, this article should probably just have been posted on the BW forum instead of the front page.
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The only people who don't agree with this article are people that started with SC2.
Anyone who has watched BW will most likely agree with the OP post. They know that players like MVP were only average at best, and there are lots of other progamers are better in mechanics and game sense.
To put it in perspective, Idra, probably the most strongest foreigner in SC1 when SC2 came out, is pretty much dominating right now. MVP, the only A class player to transfer over is dominating pretty hard as well. If there was no solid relationship between SC1 and SC2, they wouldn't be winning nearly as much.
Maybe there will be another Flash-like genius that will dominate SC2 10 years from now, who knows, but currently, if players like Flash, Jaedong, any S class or top A class players transfer over, they will definitely dominate.
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I don't see Idra really dominating to the level you are talking about, but that is another thread entirely.
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On May 13 2011 07:03 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:59 Weird wrote:
I'm so glad that this post was made, it's really helped bring everyone here together, BW and SC II fan alike... Oh wait, it's done the complete opposite for 115 pages, thanks dickhead. No, I think it was the stupidity that arose from all the SC2 fans that has been doing that for over a year, and the BW fans trying to get simple concepts into their thick skulls, then the SC2 fans being pissed that they are being (rightfully) talked down to. This is just the best thread to vent that, and if you look through the thread, it's a pretty even division between people who take shits on this thread/argue with the OP while having no understanding of BW and people who agree with it.
And what you say is really neutral and objective?
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On May 13 2011 06:59 Weird wrote:
I'm so glad that this post was made, it's really helped bring everyone here together, BW and SC II fan alike... Oh wait, it's done the complete opposite for 115 pages, thanks dickhead.
The OP made a perfectly valid criticism of the SC2 proscene. Just because a bunch of fanboys are going to get angry in the process and start raging about it doesn't mean that criticism shouldn't be expressed. The great thing about teamliquid is that we're allowed to have these sorts of debates because the expectation is that the teamliquid community is mature enough to deal with it in a respectful and productive manner.
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*sigh* TL you sometimes crush my spirit too much. I wonder if sometimes I am the only one who actually likes both games.
As for the control thing, I will just post my opinion and I'll be done with this thread: I've always thought that the challenge for a competitive game should come from the competition and not from the UI itself. I play against people at my level and I find playing them a challenge and most of the time I find it challenging, same thing for when I sued to play BW, I never thought the challenge was into beating the UI rather into beating the other nerd through my 56k connection.
Extending that I do think the same for any kind of game, any challenge should come from clever level design\AI rather than taking away options from the player. Have a nice day anyone
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EPT
