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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:40 Beyonder wrote: Its one mans view.. and it is an awesome article that adresses an interesting point. He should not voice his opinion? O_O I just don't understand why it's in News. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:31 Chill wrote: Can you exactly explain what changes happened to the metagame in the past year? Bonus points for not making a list of popular strategies. I mainly watch the GSL, but there was a progression of 1. Awkward "macro" games on Steppes of War because no one really knew what the hell they were doing 2. 1-base all-ins (with the infamous Marine-SCV rush being the most prevalent, but not the sole example) 3. 2-base timing attacks 4. Turtle-y macro games 5. Turtle-y macro games with a lot of early pressure, then later harassment whenever the players remember to. This is the point where we are now, where a unusually good SC2 game and a mediocre-to-bad BW game look pretty similar. Every now and then a really awesome long game happens (Thorzain vs MC set 4 in TSL 3, SC vs Nestea set 5 in GSL May) that Brood War fans point to as examples of the game's potential, even though they're still pretty sloppy. MC, arguably the best SC2 player in the world right now, clumped his HTs so one EMP got them all, ran HTs into melee range so they all died (a common problem SC2 players seem to have), and left his zealots dancing uselessly behind his stalkers, which cost him an engagement. 6. (The future) People start learning how to play the goddamn game. Comparisons between BW and SC2 start being a lot more valid. More generally, around GSL 2 time (when I started watching SC2), Terran was considered OP early game, and Zerg was OP lategame, and Protoss just sucked. This isn't the case now, for reasons both patch and metagame. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
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Miefer
Taiwan229 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:37 Beyonder wrote: I think that him eloquently writing down his (backed up!) view is actually very mature. Dialogue is the adult way. Taking offense to anothers opinion on the other hand... yeah but he thinks that all the people who likes sc2 are only kiddies. I mean I like sc2 more then bw now and I am 23 years old and even follwed giga liga sc bw league when fisheye was playing. | ||
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Papp996
Sweden9 Posts
I disagree with you though. If you are the worlds best rugby player you wont become the worlds best American Football player just by switching sports, even though the two sports takes equal skills. Different rules apply, and it requires additional skills. Would the best BW players become great SC2 players if they focused on it? Of course, they are very skilled RTS players, so they got a lot of the skills required to become good. Would they dominate by default? No way. Will anyone dominate in SC2? I don't think so....the game is so different. Wrong build or scouting the wrong place would mean that the worlds best player could lose to a random platinum+ player cheesing. Because there are a million people that could have about the same opening to 40 supply (+/- 1 or 2 perhaps) I will agree on this though. The longer the battles would be, the more likely it is that the elite former BW players would win. Due to their insane Macro skills. But I don't think the BW pros would be better / worse then the current SC2 elite on stoping a 4-gate, defending a 3 rax, or surviving an all in 6 pool. They are only humans.... | ||
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Jeremy Reimer
Canada1250 Posts
There shouldn't be a war between BW and SC2. People shouldn't have to take sides, and articles shouldn't be posted that fan the flames between the two communities. Post articles about how Jaedong is awesome, or about how MC is awesome, but don't post articles about how Jaedong is more awesome than MC. I watch OSL/MSL/Proleague and I watch GSL/TSL/NASL. I enjoy both. They are different. They are both Starcraft. | ||
Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
I guess there's not really another place to put it? And imo, such opinionated articles are the most interesting pieces of news possible  . TL is sometimes too mild and neutral, too unopinionated. Opinions are interesting, and good ones on interesting topics deserve a lot of attention ! Communication = growth ^_^ | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
LOL Thats just to piss people off. Look at the response its gotten, myself included. "This just in"... SC2 fans not keeping it real enough. lol | ||
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
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Omoplata
United States42 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:37 Beyonder wrote: I think that him eloquently writing down his (backed up!) view is actually very mature. Dialogue is the adult way. Taking offense to anothers opinion on the other hand... Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way? You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really? Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce. Cherry-picking statistics doesn't validate condescension. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:36 Chill wrote: The metagame would be doing things like: 1. Assuming what your opponent will do, based on the current popular strategies, and trying to exploit it. 2. Researching your opponent and preparing builds that counter his style. 3. Switching your style in a high-profile series because you have a well-known style. Even if strategies change, I haven't seen any of the above things change in a decade. That's good gameplay. "Metagame" means everything outside the game, which includes what strategies are in vouge. Faking a popular build to do an unpopular build is significantly stronger than the reverse. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:44 Beyonder wrote: I guess there's not really another place to put it? And imo, such opinionated articles are the most interesting pieces of news possible Any other piece like this I have read has been a blog, and if it's a good one(which this one is), then it's spotlighted. When I look at the news archive, every single article I go through contains elements that are actually news(reports on recent events). This piece does not. | ||
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:45 Omoplata wrote: Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way? You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really? Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce. Cherry-picking statistics doesn't validate condescension. So what, one person has that opinion and he decided to write it out. No I would not get offended; I would be interested. Why does this person feel that way? Imagine a life where we all had the same views. Now wouldn't that be boring. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:34 Chill wrote: That's not true at all. I took games off Idra in BW with build order wins and trickery. I am fucking terrible at BW. But Idra at his best wasn't really on par with even the worst A-teamers. You could play 100 games vs somebody like Mind or Hyuk and you wouldn't win a single game. There is a pretty significant difference that I know you are aware of (this post is more directed at players who read your post and think that BW is just like SC2 where a cheesy gold player can still beat a grandmaster if everything goes right). A C- player would NEVER, EVER, EVER beat a A, A+ player. | ||
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
Essentially what we have now is a bunch of players who are all very good but the thing is they can all take games off each other. If you've' been around during the BW days, it was basically impossible for a foreigner to take a game off of a Korean, like not even 1 game in a BO7 but now there is hardly a skill gap between foreigners and Koreans. Of course that's not a completely fair comparison as the SC2 scene is a lot more competitive now but I have yet to hear a SC2 player who played competitively in BW reject the claim that BW is harder (eg: both Idra and Morrow have said that SC2 is easier). In fact this reflects my own transition from BW to SC2. I was instantly decent at it without having done anything special. Often I tried to convince myself that I was just better at SC2, or that it was just my BW experience carrying over but I soon realized SC2 just wasn't as challenging as BW. Now I'm not saying SC2 is a bad game because it isn't. It's absolutely the fucking best thing ever but I don't think it carries with it the same level of competition we have seen in BW. In fact I don't believe we will ever see something in SC2 with one player dominating the scene the way flash has done in BW. | ||
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humanimal
United States151 Posts
yay for final edits being back! i missed them and almost considered asking on simple questions or something like that ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif) | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:45 Omoplata wrote: Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way? You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really? Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce. Cherry-picking statistics doesn't validate condescension. have you ever read a sports article in your entire life? and ffs drop the fucking comparison to racism and sexism. sports writers always call out athletes for being scrubs. thats why we read | ||
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:47 travis wrote: Any other piece like this I have read has been a blog, and if it's a good one(which this one is), then it's spotlighted. When I look at the news archive, every single article I go through contains elements that are actually news(reports on recent events). This piece does not. The news is that there's a new Final Edit. That's how final edits have always been. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:47 Ribbon wrote: That's good gameplay. "Metagame" means everything outside the game, which includes what strategies are in vouge. Faking a popular build to do an unpopular build is significantly stronger than the reverse. Oh shit, here we go. ...We herd u like discussions. | ||
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
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