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On May 13 2011 07:49 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:45 Omoplata wrote:On May 13 2011 07:37 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:31 Miefer wrote:On May 13 2011 07:30 Beyonder wrote:
Replying to the 'offtopic' posts: SC2 fanbase is just a lot younger. BW has had the same players for so many years, it's only natural that the BW community was more mature and in general had more 'quality'. But quality is a dreadful word for that, I think maturity is a better word. But for SC2 to grow, the younger and more quantitative fanbase is needed oh so much. So in a way it is a double edged sword.
Apparently the SC2 community is not developed enough to take such awesome (and opinionated!) posts. I honestly do not see why people take it so personal. Be happy that someone has a different opinion than you and learn from it. It does not harm you one bit. Or at least, it should not. i think talking down to sc2 players isnt mature or showing quality at all... I think that him eloquently writing down his (backed up!) view is actually very mature. Dialogue is the adult way. Taking offense to anothers opinion on the other hand... Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way? You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really? Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce. Cherry-picking statistics doesn't validate condescension. have you ever read a sports article in your entire life? and ffs drop the fucking comparison to racism and sexism. sports writers always call out athletes for being scrubs. thats why we read
Reading comprehension, buddy. Try it. The racism thing was to point out that being offended by an opinion does not make one any less of an adult, as that guy was suggesting. It wasn't a comparison to anything.
So what if a sports writers calls people out? Should be be immune from being called out himself? That's all people are doing.
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On May 13 2011 07:44 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:42 travis wrote:On May 13 2011 07:40 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:36 sermokala wrote:
Its stuff like this is why I hate all the stuff that keeps coming out of the BW diehards. Why can't they Support SC2 and not just shit on it every single chance they get.
Just so my point is clear We have Not one but TWO $50k leagues that are primarily america based and The scene is growing every single month. And yet the top community site must have an article on the front page saying how the entire world of sc2 is a farce and all the storylines that we've really been happy about is just total shit and we're all failures that have no hope against 300 people that don't speak English and have nothing at all for use to even care about if we're not extreme fanboys that love watching a game that looks like total shit compared to every other game.
TLDR: reaction: But everyone come back and watch the TSL3 Finals this weekend which is going to be total shit beacuse no one whos not asian and plays BW is total shit. What kind of message does this send? Its one mans view.. and it is an awesome article that adresses an interesting point. He should not voice his opinion? O_O I just don't understand why it's in News. I guess there's not really another place to put it? And imo, such opinionated articles are the most interesting pieces of news possible  . TL is sometimes too mild and neutral, too unopinionated. Opinions are interesting, and good ones on interesting topics deserve a lot of attention ! Communication = growth ^_^
Leave it in the Final Edit section on the side then. I agree that I am happy to know that there will be greater Starcraft players coming to the SC2 Scene. But why did the OP feel the need to grab Statistics from a game that these players do not play anymore to back up saying that they all are terrible?
People change! I have a hard time believing that every single player slacks off and doesn't practice correctly and didn't change their ways at all from playing in brood war. No one thought "TSL 2 Isn't watchable because the best players in the world don't play in it". So Why is it this way for SC2?
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On May 13 2011 07:44 Papp996 wrote:
Crazy amount of replies on this post...... well done on that OP!
I disagree with you though. If you are the worlds best rugby player you wont become the worlds best American Football player just by switching sports, even though the two sports takes equal skills. Different rules apply, and it requires additional skills.
Would the best BW players become great SC2 players if they focused on it? Of course, they are very skilled RTS players, so they got a lot of the skills required to become good. Would they dominate by default? No way. Will anyone dominate in SC2? I don't think so....the game is so different. Wrong build or scouting the wrong place would mean that the worlds best player could lose to a random platinum+ player cheesing. Because there are a million people that could have about the same opening to 40 supply (+/- 1 or 2 perhaps)
I will agree on this though. The longer the battles would be, the more likely it is that the elite former BW players would win. Due to their insane Macro skills.
But I don't think the BW pros would be better / worse then the current SC2 elite on stoping a 4-gate, defending a 3 rax, or surviving an all in 6 pool. They are only humans....
I disagree that they wouldn't be any better at stopping cheeses. Even in BW where pretty much every progamer practices like 12 hours a day, there is still a clear difference between the best players and the average players even when it comes to something like stopping a cheese. Flash, above everything else, is his known for his game sense. He has an uncanny ability to smell a cheese from a mile away and there have been countless instances where he has scouted proxies when your average player would have been completely oblivious to them. Also, the best players are better at micro and crisis management, something that's very important when defending against cheeses since even a small slip up can be game over. Flash and Jaedong once again really excel in this regard compared to the average progamer.
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On May 13 2011 07:49 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:47 travis wrote:On May 13 2011 07:44 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:42 travis wrote:On May 13 2011 07:40 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:36 sermokala wrote:
Its stuff like this is why I hate all the stuff that keeps coming out of the BW diehards. Why can't they Support SC2 and not just shit on it every single chance they get.
Just so my point is clear We have Not one but TWO $50k leagues that are primarily america based and The scene is growing every single month. And yet the top community site must have an article on the front page saying how the entire world of sc2 is a farce and all the storylines that we've really been happy about is just total shit and we're all failures that have no hope against 300 people that don't speak English and have nothing at all for use to even care about if we're not extreme fanboys that love watching a game that looks like total shit compared to every other game.
TLDR: reaction: But everyone come back and watch the TSL3 Finals this weekend which is going to be total shit beacuse no one whos not asian and plays BW is total shit. What kind of message does this send? Its one mans view.. and it is an awesome article that adresses an interesting point. He should not voice his opinion? O_O I just don't understand why it's in News. I guess there's not really another place to put it? And imo, such opinionated articles are the most interesting pieces of news possible Any other piece like this I have read has been a blog, and if it's a good one(which this one is), then it's spotlighted. When I look at the news archive, every single article I go through contains elements that are actually news(reports on recent events). This piece does not. The news is that there's a new Final Edit. That's how final edits have always been.
Ah, i looked back at the history over the last 3 months and found another one, ty.
Well I still disagree with this article representing the homepage of the site (no offense intrigue I thought it was a good article). But at least there is a disclaimer so that everyone understands it isn't TL's "official opinions" on sc2 or something.
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I barely followed the bw scene as I didn't really know anyone where I live who was interested so every now and again I would pop in and have Look around tl maybe watch a highlights clip and be amazed at the skill of the pros. With sc2 starting I decided I would put a little time into playing but overall trying and keep up with the scene. I agree completely with the OP and at the same time feel a little embarrassed at the majority of sc2 fans. From the trolls to the flamers to the one post trolls who seem to not want to contribute ANYTHING constructive but continually create new accounts on tl.
Within but a few posts on tl I got my first warning for not contributing a simple error on my behalf quoted and posted without adding anything. However as a member who didn't want to be just be a troll or flamer I stopped and started to think about my posting and have started reading more and more on bw so I can enjoy both bw and sc2. I'll never be Able to talk about it as much Any of the older posters but I have learnt to respect bw and it's players and what this site was for the few who followed bw.
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This article makes me want to play Starcraft 2. Really well done article, thank you for re-motivating me to play my heart out and get ready for the BW pros =)
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On May 13 2011 07:40 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:36 sermokala wrote:
Its stuff like this is why I hate all the stuff that keeps coming out of the BW diehards. Why can't they Support SC2 and not just shit on it every single chance they get.
Just so my point is clear We have Not one but TWO $50k leagues that are primarily america based and The scene is growing every single month. And yet the top community site must have an article on the front page saying how the entire world of sc2 is a farce and all the storylines that we've really been happy about is just total shit and we're all failures that have no hope against 300 people that don't speak English and have nothing at all for use to even care about if we're not extreme fanboys that love watching a game that looks like total shit compared to every other game.
TLDR: reaction: But everyone come back and watch the TSL3 Finals this weekend which is going to be total shit beacuse no one whos not asian and plays BW is total shit. What kind of message does this send? Its one mans view.. and it is an awesome article that adresses an interesting point. He should not voice his opinion? O_O
If it's just his opinion why is it on the front page news instead of a spot lighted blog? Why are so many mods backing him up?
If a SC2 fan made a thread like this attacking BW the thread would be closed and they would be warned / banned but when a BW player attacks the SC2 then it gets put on the front page?
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
I dont think you watch the right games then, Chill. Stuff like that happens all the time? Unless I misunderstand. Just look at how Marineking developed his TvT, for example. And the way people tried to counter that. Or TLO noticing that swedish protoss did a fast expand with colossus in the first game, predicting he'd do it again, and then dropping hellions and marines quickly. Thorzain watched MC replays and decided that a quick upgrade style would be highly favorable; a similar thing he did to Tyler. Aren't these all meta game decisions? And aren't there TONS of them.
But you have great insight in games, so perhaps Im confused..
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On May 13 2011 07:40 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:36 sermokala wrote:
Its stuff like this is why I hate all the stuff that keeps coming out of the BW diehards. Why can't they Support SC2 and not just shit on it every single chance they get.
Just so my point is clear We have Not one but TWO $50k leagues that are primarily america based and The scene is growing every single month. And yet the top community site must have an article on the front page saying how the entire world of sc2 is a farce and all the storylines that we've really been happy about is just total shit and we're all failures that have no hope against 300 people that don't speak English and have nothing at all for use to even care about if we're not extreme fanboys that love watching a game that looks like total shit compared to every other game.
TLDR: reaction: But everyone come back and watch the TSL3 Finals this weekend which is going to be total shit beacuse no one whos not asian and plays BW is total shit. What kind of message does this send? Its one mans view.. and it is an awesome article that adresses an interesting point. He should not voice his opinion? O_O
He posted it as the first Sc2 focused Final Edit, (which I really loved reading even if I didn't follow BW and the first while its out) on the front page of a website that has a SC2 team and has a Starleague whos finals is coming up this weekend, and To be frank hes not just one man hes practically an official Team liquid writer. My problem is not his point but why with all these things he'd even make it knowing the shitstorm that would ensue.
Good points shouldn't start a flame war in my opinion. count the amount of comments this Final edit has had and compare it with every other Final edit. Also in my opinion I don't find it interesting I find it obnoxious and obvious.
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i definitely remember when nestea was on KTF....
holy god was he bad lololol
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On May 13 2011 07:49 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:45 Omoplata wrote:On May 13 2011 07:37 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:31 Miefer wrote:On May 13 2011 07:30 Beyonder wrote:
Replying to the 'offtopic' posts: SC2 fanbase is just a lot younger. BW has had the same players for so many years, it's only natural that the BW community was more mature and in general had more 'quality'. But quality is a dreadful word for that, I think maturity is a better word. But for SC2 to grow, the younger and more quantitative fanbase is needed oh so much. So in a way it is a double edged sword.
Apparently the SC2 community is not developed enough to take such awesome (and opinionated!) posts. I honestly do not see why people take it so personal. Be happy that someone has a different opinion than you and learn from it. It does not harm you one bit. Or at least, it should not. i think talking down to sc2 players isnt mature or showing quality at all... I think that him eloquently writing down his (backed up!) view is actually very mature. Dialogue is the adult way. Taking offense to anothers opinion on the other hand... Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way? You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really? Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce. Cherry-picking statistics doesn't validate condescension. have you ever read a sports article in your entire life? and ffs drop the fucking comparison to racism and sexism. sports writers always call out athletes for being scrubs. thats why we read
I have never in my life read a sports article on the front page of a sport's biggest website arguing that the sport in question was a farce.
Have you ever seen a Sports Illustrated with a cover story of "The Top 20 Reasons Football is For Retards?"
OP may make a good argument, but it's needless inflammatory and condescending.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:54 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:40 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:36 sermokala wrote:
Its stuff like this is why I hate all the stuff that keeps coming out of the BW diehards. Why can't they Support SC2 and not just shit on it every single chance they get.
Just so my point is clear We have Not one but TWO $50k leagues that are primarily america based and The scene is growing every single month. And yet the top community site must have an article on the front page saying how the entire world of sc2 is a farce and all the storylines that we've really been happy about is just total shit and we're all failures that have no hope against 300 people that don't speak English and have nothing at all for use to even care about if we're not extreme fanboys that love watching a game that looks like total shit compared to every other game.
TLDR: reaction: But everyone come back and watch the TSL3 Finals this weekend which is going to be total shit beacuse no one whos not asian and plays BW is total shit. What kind of message does this send? Its one mans view.. and it is an awesome article that adresses an interesting point. He should not voice his opinion? O_O If it's just his opinion why is it on the front page news instead of a spot lighted blog? Why are so many mods backing him up? If a SC2 fan made a thread like this attacking BW the thread would be closed and they would be warned / banned but when a BW player attacks the SC2 then it gets put on the front page?
Because it is a Final Edit, and that has always been front page news. And some staff agrees with this, at least parts. We actually had a huge internal discussion about the conclusions and claims too its not that black and white.
And no, if the SC2 fan would write his thoughts out eloquently, there's no way we would close it and/or ban.
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On May 13 2011 07:43 DarkMatter_ wrote:
I'm starting to think this entire thread would be a lot less bitter if the OP didn't include that "SC2 competition is a farce" statement. I do think that was an unjustifiably harsh statement to make about the SC2 proscene even if I agree with most of what he said.
This It would be a strong point to say that 90% of the problems people have with one another is caused not about what they say but how they say it.
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On May 13 2011 07:54 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:40 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:36 sermokala wrote:
Its stuff like this is why I hate all the stuff that keeps coming out of the BW diehards. Why can't they Support SC2 and not just shit on it every single chance they get.
Just so my point is clear We have Not one but TWO $50k leagues that are primarily america based and The scene is growing every single month. And yet the top community site must have an article on the front page saying how the entire world of sc2 is a farce and all the storylines that we've really been happy about is just total shit and we're all failures that have no hope against 300 people that don't speak English and have nothing at all for use to even care about if we're not extreme fanboys that love watching a game that looks like total shit compared to every other game.
TLDR: reaction: But everyone come back and watch the TSL3 Finals this weekend which is going to be total shit beacuse no one whos not asian and plays BW is total shit. What kind of message does this send? Its one mans view.. and it is an awesome article that adresses an interesting point. He should not voice his opinion? O_O If it's just his opinion why is it on the front page news instead of a spot lighted blog? Why are so many mods backing him up? If a SC2 fan made a thread like this attacking BW the thread would be closed and they would be warned / banned but when a BW player attacks the SC2 then it gets put on the front page?
Because it's a Final Edit, and all Final edits are placed on the front page when they are published. See the bottom right for the other Final Edits. Most of them are actually good articles
edit: fucking beyonder ninja xD
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On May 13 2011 07:41 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:37 slimbo1 wrote:
What if Michael Schumacher would play tennis, football and of course drives fast cars for ferrari? What if John Mcenroe would have been playing football and Lionel Messi would have been playing tennis instead of football? What if Great Britain did not choose to engage in the first World War? Would there be an european continent ruled by germans? What about Hannibal? Maybe the Roman Empire could have thought that Hannibal doesnt give a shit about mountains and elephants at all. Maybe and of course we dont know. So what if Flash decides to start studying? Just because he would like to do so. What if Jaedongs right hand gets hurt?
Dear TeamLiquid,
please care about the quality of the site's content. Keep up the good coverage and give input that matters. Counterfactual history is not your job. Niall Ferguson could do this much better. Oh come on, that is such an awkward comparison. SC2 is the new (!) sequal to BW. Those sports have been out there forever and are a lot less related.
Agreed.
It's much better to compare similar sports with related origins and require like but different skill sets.
Table Tennis and Tennis
Ice Hockey and Field Hockey
American Football and Rugby
Football and Futsal
Baseball and Cricket
Who in his right mind would say that the competition in one makes the other look like a farce? People realise that these are different disciplines, building on similar yet different skill sets, and each one requires absolute devotion of one's time to become one of the world's best.
It's insulting to one pro scene to state that the other pro scene would dominate when we don't have any facts to prove this (in fact, the closest comparable situation (WC3 pros) we do have available runs completely counter to the OP's (misguided?) conclusion).
edit: wow, just had a look over at reddit and other sites, TL.net does not come away from this in a good light:
"TL.net is full of sour BW elitists protecting their dying game by putting down the SC2 scene"
Looks like the disclaimers trying to distance this editorial from TL.net at large didn't help. :/
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the problem is that the whole thing is really just a "what if," a speculative fantasy, with an inflammatory conclusion being drawn that only serves to isolate both communities and drive a bigger wedge in between the two.
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On May 13 2011 07:55 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:49 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 07:45 Omoplata wrote:On May 13 2011 07:37 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:31 Miefer wrote:On May 13 2011 07:30 Beyonder wrote:
Replying to the 'offtopic' posts: SC2 fanbase is just a lot younger. BW has had the same players for so many years, it's only natural that the BW community was more mature and in general had more 'quality'. But quality is a dreadful word for that, I think maturity is a better word. But for SC2 to grow, the younger and more quantitative fanbase is needed oh so much. So in a way it is a double edged sword.
Apparently the SC2 community is not developed enough to take such awesome (and opinionated!) posts. I honestly do not see why people take it so personal. Be happy that someone has a different opinion than you and learn from it. It does not harm you one bit. Or at least, it should not. i think talking down to sc2 players isnt mature or showing quality at all... I think that him eloquently writing down his (backed up!) view is actually very mature. Dialogue is the adult way. Taking offense to anothers opinion on the other hand... Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way? You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really? Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce. Cherry-picking statistics doesn't validate condescension. have you ever read a sports article in your entire life? and ffs drop the fucking comparison to racism and sexism. sports writers always call out athletes for being scrubs. thats why we read I have never in my life read a sports article on the front page of a sport's biggest website arguing that the sport in question was a farce. Have you ever seen a Sports Illustrated with a cover story of "The Top 20 Reasons Football is For Retards?" OP may make a good argument, but it's needless inflammatory and condescending.
hello fellow american. have you ever read an article about american soccer or listened to jim rome talk about soccer
obviously not
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On May 13 2011 07:52 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:49 gen.Sun wrote:On May 13 2011 07:47 travis wrote:On May 13 2011 07:44 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:42 travis wrote:On May 13 2011 07:40 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:36 sermokala wrote:
Its stuff like this is why I hate all the stuff that keeps coming out of the BW diehards. Why can't they Support SC2 and not just shit on it every single chance they get.
Just so my point is clear We have Not one but TWO $50k leagues that are primarily america based and The scene is growing every single month. And yet the top community site must have an article on the front page saying how the entire world of sc2 is a farce and all the storylines that we've really been happy about is just total shit and we're all failures that have no hope against 300 people that don't speak English and have nothing at all for use to even care about if we're not extreme fanboys that love watching a game that looks like total shit compared to every other game.
TLDR: reaction: But everyone come back and watch the TSL3 Finals this weekend which is going to be total shit beacuse no one whos not asian and plays BW is total shit. What kind of message does this send? Its one mans view.. and it is an awesome article that adresses an interesting point. He should not voice his opinion? O_O I just don't understand why it's in News. I guess there's not really another place to put it? And imo, such opinionated articles are the most interesting pieces of news possible Any other piece like this I have read has been a blog, and if it's a good one(which this one is), then it's spotlighted. When I look at the news archive, every single article I go through contains elements that are actually news(reports on recent events). This piece does not. The news is that there's a new Final Edit. That's how final edits have always been. Ah, i looked back at the history over the last 3 months and found another one, ty. Well I still disagree with this article representing the homepage of the site (no offense intrigue I thought it was a good article). But at least there is a disclaimer so that everyone understands it isn't TL's "official opinions" on sc2 or something.
The very first sentence of the OP:
Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue).
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For what it's worth, I completely agree with this article. Regardless of how much fun SC2 is to watch, it is no-where near the mastery that SC1 is at. This is not an insult directed at SC2 players; should an infant be insulted that it is less skillful than an adult? SC1's ceiling is close. SC2's is nowhere near reach, and the current players I feel very much mirror early BW. The factory players (ie Flash) didn't exist during the beginning of SC1, and likewise for SC2. Lets just celebrate what SC1 is, and what SC2 will be some day.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 13 2011 07:55 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:49 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 07:45 Omoplata wrote:On May 13 2011 07:37 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:31 Miefer wrote:On May 13 2011 07:30 Beyonder wrote:
Replying to the 'offtopic' posts: SC2 fanbase is just a lot younger. BW has had the same players for so many years, it's only natural that the BW community was more mature and in general had more 'quality'. But quality is a dreadful word for that, I think maturity is a better word. But for SC2 to grow, the younger and more quantitative fanbase is needed oh so much. So in a way it is a double edged sword.
Apparently the SC2 community is not developed enough to take such awesome (and opinionated!) posts. I honestly do not see why people take it so personal. Be happy that someone has a different opinion than you and learn from it. It does not harm you one bit. Or at least, it should not. i think talking down to sc2 players isnt mature or showing quality at all... I think that him eloquently writing down his (backed up!) view is actually very mature. Dialogue is the adult way. Taking offense to anothers opinion on the other hand... Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way? You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really? Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce. Cherry-picking statistics doesn't validate condescension. have you ever read a sports article in your entire life? and ffs drop the fucking comparison to racism and sexism. sports writers always call out athletes for being scrubs. thats why we read I have never in my life read a sports article on the front page of a sport's biggest website arguing that the sport in question was a farce. Have you ever seen a Sports Illustrated with a cover story of "The Top 20 Reasons Football is For Retards?" OP may make a good argument, but it's needless inflammatory and condescending.
Yes I've seen various of similar articles. In cycling for example after all the scandals. Or soccer and the defensive games that have been developed by prominent teams which basically ruined sports (e.g., the competition in Italy). The list goes on.
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EPT
