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On February 25 2007 03:02 vnlegend wrote:
Talking about boring... Terran's the most boring race in SC. TvZ you basically do the same thing every single game. Get mnm, tanks, vessels, attack, dropship kill expansions. At least zerg mixes it up with lurkers, muta lings, guardians and defilers.
And Terran risking the game with every attack? Terrans have awesome defense and are rarely at risk when attacking and the other two races have to adapt to their timing. Hwasin freely leaves his base to attack and forsakes his base to be defended/rescued by reinforcements and scvs. Whereas zerg, if your flank doesn't work out or you lose mutas, you're doomed. Nobody has it easier in SC than terrans, and that's why they've been so successful.
If anything, watching Savior is entertaining because he rapes the other guy so badly sometimes it makes them look like noobs, not Starleaguers. Watching Nada doing the same thing that every Terran does, and failing, is boring. Watching Savior infesting Nada's CC and taking him to school is great.
u obviously never played terran nor know anything about it.
terran is probly the hardest race to play with every unit being practically worthless without using their micro/abilities all the time.
Terran not risking? lol u risk all the time with all the shit zerg has (lurker, especially stop lurker, being caught by mutaling in the open, noticing swarm 1 second to late, getting ur vessel scourged)
Not even nada with fucking crazy multitasking can keep an eye on everything, especially when playing a good zerg like savior. Go see the VODs, nada lost so much because of noticing stuff 1 sec too late.
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On February 25 2007 04:12 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2007 03:59 gravity wrote:
Savior's dominance is good because it helps prove that strategy/decision making is more important in Starcraft than having perfect APM/multitask/micro. When it comes to the latter things Savior is merely average to above average by pro standards (in fact I think people are sometimes blind to the amount of small micro mistakes he makes sometimes), it's the rest that pushes him to the top.
edit: also it's nice to have a non-Terran dominate, even if it means Protoss is more screwed against Z than ever :p. are you joking? savior has the best multitask of any zerg EVER and better micro than anyone but july
Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc. I think people think that because Savior is so dominant he must not have any flaws. In his recent ZvT series his muta harass has done jack shit half the time, but he's still managed to mostly win anyway.
I'm not saying he's *bad* at micro and stuff, clearly he's pretty good at it, it's just that I like that his micro/mechanics/APM isn't his primary strength (Oov being another example), unlike Nada. If Nada had won it would have been bad for SC, in my opinion.
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Thanks for your input but no. Savior's muta harass does "jack-shit" because the Terrans are fucking TERRIFIED of it. They overcompensate by building turrets and allowing him to take his 3rd gas, bam. Mutas are worth it. Don't think that mutalisks have to kill an ungodly amount (or even any) in order for them to be worth it.
I was completely amazed by the amount of damage and huge threat he was able to display with simply his mutaling force, counterattacking at the correct times, killing stray units, it was absolutely beautiful. Too many Zergs waste their mutalisks trying to kill 3-4 more scvs, and they get fucked when the Terran starts using dropship play etc.
That post about Savior was awesome. Savior wasn't always this great, and was an unknown and worked hard for what he has accomplished. He has taken Zerg to a new level, and makes Protosses and Terrans shit their pants. Being able to 3-1 the greatest gamer ever is ridiculous. After seeing the VODs, I saw how he absolutely crumbled Nada with ridiculous timing, defiler control, and macro. So sick.
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Braavos36370 Posts
On February 25 2007 04:47 gravity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2007 04:12 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 25 2007 03:59 gravity wrote:
Savior's dominance is good because it helps prove that strategy/decision making is more important in Starcraft than having perfect APM/multitask/micro. When it comes to the latter things Savior is merely average to above average by pro standards (in fact I think people are sometimes blind to the amount of small micro mistakes he makes sometimes), it's the rest that pushes him to the top.
edit: also it's nice to have a non-Terran dominate, even if it means Protoss is more screwed against Z than ever :p. are you joking? savior has the best multitask of any zerg EVER and better micro than anyone but july Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc. I think people think that because Savior is so dominant he must not have any flaws. In his recent ZvT series his muta harass has done jack shit half the time, but he's still managed to mostly win anyway. I'm not saying he's *bad* at micro and stuff, clearly he's pretty good at it, it's just that I like that his micro/mechanics/APM isn't his primary strength (Oov being another example), unlike Nada. If Nada had won it would have been bad for SC, in my opinion.
how can you watch savior's games and not know he has great multitask, he's everywhere defending and he builds units/drones perfectly while microing, anyone can see that without viewing an fpvod.
and how can you claim his multitask is "average" in the first place if you say yourself that you are "not sure about his multitask"
and he "wastes units with micro errors quite often" ? are you kidding? he barely ever loses drones even when he's bunker rushed or 9/10 gated, did you see that game vs nal_ra where he delayed zealots with 2 forward drones? or that he's IMPOSSIBLE to cheese? how can that be with "average" micro?
if savior's flanks are uncoordinated then which zerg has coordinated flanks?
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Just the fact that he said "Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod" makes whatever he says next have almost no credibility. Obviously you are half asleep when watching VODs or you just aren't bright enough to understand that when the video is centered on some beautiful attack savior is doing and then switches to savior's base where another army is being gathered savior is doing those at the same time. Savior has lings and mutas and lurkers and other shit running around all parts of the map and he barely even loses more than one ling before retreating them when attacked by a superior force, which is an easy example of incredible multitasking if you have ever actually played the game.
Not trying to be mean, though it does come across that way; just trying to defend savior and make you more aware of why he is the best right now.
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Netherlands19129 Posts
On February 25 2007 00:40 uhjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2007 23:05 rgfdxm wrote:
A lot of people seem to forget that Savior is human. For these people, he is resented because of his dominant play, but this dominant play is never really credited to him. Savior is instead a force of nature interrupting the world of progaming and ruthlessly keeping "real" human progamers down, a scourge that stops the best of BW from winning. His composure during and after play makes him "robotic" and "inhuman," his builds "macro-whorish" and exploitative.
What I think more people should really realize is that Savior himself is a 20 year old kid. He wasn't granted some great gift from the heavens to be able to play BW. He worked damn hard to get where he is, and every aspect of his skills and strengths now were forged over years of practice and determination, just like a Ra or a Boxer or a July.
We all acknowledge what a daunting - no, terrifying experience it musts to get in front of a crowd of hundreds or thousands and even more on television, including family and friends, and be expected to play a lightning fast game of skill and concentration against what you know will be a world-class opponent. We acknowledge from the example of players like Midas or Canata that practice, skill, and dedication alone won't win you titles. Mental strength to me is the hallmark of Savior's style, and I see many people resent him for it when to me it is a thing to be respected, whether or not I like him, whether or not I like his games.
When Savior got on that stage opposite Nada a day ago, on maps known not to favor his race, playing against the most accomplished player in history, I don't understand how you could not give Savior some respect for his composure and beautifully consistent play. Savior's style is to make no mistakes, play for every small advantage he can get and let the mistakes of his opponent accumulate to spell their doom. I can understand that some people will find that more boring than, say, July's balls-to-the-wall aggressiveness. But that is why July is the God of War, and Savior the Maestro. Feel free to appreciate tactics over strategy or vice versa, but one is not more "inhuman."
I'm not especially a fan of Savior. I'm a very optimistic kind of person, and I enjoy seeing all players succeed. I would have been happy with any result of the semifinal matches. I can understand that other people would rather see some players win than others, but the outright dismissal of Savior as something other than human frustrates me. Those of you who demonize him, remember that he's put in the time, he developed his signature builds himself, he is elevating the play of his race to new heights. Imagine how it would be for you in Savior's position. Could you be as cool, as composed, as consistent as he is? Savior, name change or no, is still the same person, the same human, he was years ago as IPXZerg. His dominance is not a fact of life, it's a result of his growth as a player in every way.
There's no zerg master waiting for him back at CJ, ready to give him the new builds that win on maps like RT and Longinus 2 against players like Hwasin, Midas, Nada; no cheat sheet that gives him the answers. He's a man with a target on his back, doing his best and making it up as he goes along. If Savior's defiler use is godly, it isn't because God hates Nada, it's because Savior more than anyone around him realized the power of defilers and practiced his art to perfection. If you care to deride him for "drone-whoring," then I'll challenge you to a game of BW PvZ, but you're not allowed to make drones.
He was given the same tools as every other zerg in BW history, and I can't disdain him for seeing their potential in ways no one else has. Other players have done that before, and most of them are revered and respected. Those who hated Boxer and his dropships, Nada and his multitasking, oov and his macro are nowadays mostly gone. Those players contributed greatly to the game of BW and have masses of fans to show for it. Any of you who can still honestly not respect them now, feel free to disrespect Savior and pray for him to lose all his games and go back to being a nobody as IPXZerg. Then I'll know who not to pay attention to.
bravo. best post i've seen in a long long time.
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think about it. whenever there is someone who raises the bar, everyone else is forced to raise their game as well. for that simple reason it's a good thing for progaming!
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On February 25 2007 04:47 gravity wrote:
Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc.
Stop reading from here....
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On February 25 2007 05:39 boghat wrote:
Just the fact that he said "Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod" makes whatever he says next have almost no credibility. Obviously you are half asleep when watching VODs or you just aren't bright enough to understand that when the video is centered on some beautiful attack savior is doing and then switches to savior's base where another army is being gathered savior is doing those at the same time. Savior has lings and mutas and lurkers and other shit running around all parts of the map and he barely even loses more than one ling before retreating them when attacked by a superior force, which is an easy example of incredible multitasking if you have ever actually played the game.
"Barely even loses more than one ling"? I guess you didn't watch Midas vs. Savior on Hitchhiker (first one) where Savior lost the game by constantly throwing away groups of units to little or no effect, or all the other times when he sloppily loses units when otherwise playing well. Of course he can multitask, but calling him the best multitasker ever (like the other guy did) is probably stretching it - every pro can multitask better than you or me but not every one is one of the absolute best.
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On February 25 2007 05:43 hixhix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2007 04:47 gravity wrote:
Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc. Stop reading from here....
Stop living from here, you worthless cunt.
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Braavos36370 Posts
how is it stretching it, i said he has the best multitask of any zerg ever, care to name one that is better at multitasking than savior?
NO zerg in the history of brood war defends multiple points, attacks, harasses, scouts, and builds all at once as well as savior does
and now you've changed your argument from "savior has average multitask" to "calling savior the best multitasker ever is probably stretching it" and you're still wrong
calling his multitasking and micro "average" is so ridiculous lol
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I seriously can't understand anyone thinking Savior has some sort of super-good micro, July's is so much better it's crazy - just watch one try to ling rush, then watch the other. Maybe that's because Savior is spending more time on eco, but in that case he obviously doesn't have some sort of invincible multi-task either. Jeez, it's not like I'm trying to say Savior is bad, but the part of his play that impresses me isn't his micro (at least not in the technical sense - his tactical decision making/use of defiler is obviously very good most of the time, it's the implementation that doesn't always reach the absolute top level we've seen elsewhere).
Watching July muta-ling micro at his best and it's all "hell yeah, this is rape, how the hell did he kill so many M&M", watching Savior's muta-ling micro veers from "pretty good" to "please stop fucking up, Savior". (Savior is better than July for other reasons of course.)
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On February 25 2007 05:46 gravity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2007 05:43 hixhix wrote:On February 25 2007 04:47 gravity wrote:
Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc. Stop reading from here.... Stop living from here, you worthless cunt.
Dont be offended, kid. I'm so sorry but it's the fact that you are stupid. Sad but true.
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Netherlands19129 Posts
Savior nonstop amazes me with his reaction speed all over the map while doing other stuff that every player needs to do. He *never* loses a defiler to irradiate without consuming 2 things and laying down an extra swarm before it does.
Savios multitasking is unparalelled for zerg players.
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Braavos36370 Posts
"i consider savior's decision making/use of defiler more impressive than his micro or multitasking"
is very different from
"savior has average micro and multitask"
"savior wastes units with micro errors quite often"
"savior has uncoordinated and ineffective flanks"
the first statement is an opinion and some people will agree with you. nobody is arguing that.
the second set of statements that you insist are true is just plain stupidity. anyone who has watched one savior game can tell you that.
ps use of defiler is micro, and "spending time on eco" is multitasking but whatever
pps i also disagree about july, savior and july have very comparable micro, one is not noticeably better than the other, "july is so much better it's crazy" is just not true
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Savior is bad at nothing. There is no aspect of this game he sucks at. For someone to say he is not among the best at any of the fields of this game is blasphemy and isn't worth responding to for they are showing the utmost ignorance of this game.
(Maybe team play, but I highly doubt it from such a strategical master).
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On February 25 2007 05:48 Hot_Bid wrote:
how is it stretching it, i said he has the best multitask of any zerg ever, care to name one that is better at multitasking than savior?
NO zerg in the history of brood war defends multiple points, attacks, harasses, scouts, and builds all at once as well as savior does
and now you've changed your argument from "savior has average multitask" to "calling savior the best multitasker ever is probably stretching it" and you're still wrong
calling his multitasking and micro "average" is so ridiculous lol
Forget multitasking, my main thought has always been that his micro isn't that special by top pro standards. People just think it's good because they're blind to a players' flaws if that player is winning. It's the same with Nada not being that good at strategy - as long as he's winning people will talk like he's some kind of strategy god, basically out of fanboyism. Savior's raping him in this final shows that it's true though.
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People think Nada isn't that good at strategy because of his interview on the matter.
If you've seen his games you'd know he's an excellent strategist. And he's shown that time and time again.
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Braavos36370 Posts
savior is the absolute best at defending vs cheese with drones+ling, splitting irradiated mutalisks, using defilers... not to mention everything else hes very good at like flanking harassing etc etc
how can someone who is the best at so many things have "average" or "not that special" micro, thats just ridiculous
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On February 25 2007 05:55 MYM.Testie wrote:
Savior is bad at nothing. There is no aspect of this game he sucks at.
I agree. My point all along in this thread is that Savior winning is better for SC than Nada winning because Savior is better at strategy rather than relying so much on mechanics.
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EPT
