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On September 28 2011 13:45 aZealot wrote:
That's not a valid comparison based on my understanding of SC2 lore. Zealots now return as Immortals while Dark Templar return as Stalkers. Immortals are cool, IMO, although a little uni-dimensional and situational, but I think a Zealot would not mind returning as an Immortal, at all.
It's not dead Protoss that get put in Dragoons/Immortals or Stalkers, it's crippled Protoss. [/lore geek]
Dragoons are simply Protoss wheelchairs  .
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Yeah, good point. I did know that lol, but had forgotten.
However, the point remains that Zealots, afaik, return as Immortals and not as Stalkers.
(Speaking of lore, I hope HOTS return Protoss to more of the SC1/BW feel of Protoss. The campaign in SC1 and characters like Fenix, Zeratul and Tassadar are a good part of the reason I fell in love with Protoss, and picked them as my race for all time; that, and the badass units.)
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On September 28 2011 14:03 aZealot wrote:
Yeah, good point. I did know that lol, but had forgotten.
However, the point remains that Zealots, afaik, return as Immortals and not as Stalkers.
(Speaking of lore, I hope HOTS return Protoss to more of the SC1/BW feel of Protoss. The campaign in SC1 and characters like Fenix, Zeratul and Tassadar are a good part of the reason I fell in love with Protoss, and picked them as my race for all time; that, and the badass units.)
Stalkers are not manned by a physical entity, but by the "shadow essence" of a Dark Templar.
Also, the facility (apparently there was only 1, which makes absolutely no sense) to make Dragoons was infested, and apparently the Protoss don't know how to make Dragoons anymore, so they turned the existing Dragoons into Immortals. So if a Zealot is teleported from combat (when Protoss units "die", they don't actually die, they are teleported somewhere else) and is injured badly enough, there wouldn't be an Immortal waiting for them.
Considering how silly the above paragraph is, I will assume Blizzard made up that lore for the sake of making up lore, and we can assume the Protoss are happily making Immortals from scratch, and in a more realistic scenario, are still pumping out Dragoons like crazy as well.
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On September 28 2011 14:03 aZealot wrote:
(Speaking of lore, I hope HOTS return Protoss to more of the SC1/BW feel of Protoss. The campaign in SC1 and characters like Fenix, Zeratul and Tassadar are a good part of the reason I fell in love with Protoss, and picked them as my race for all time; that, and the badass units.)
Tell me about it. I've actually posted a very lengthy analysis of my thoughts and impressions regarding the story of the StarCraft games. Suffice it to say that Protoss lore went bad with Brood War and was fairly abysmal in Wings of Liberty.
On September 28 2011 14:21 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
Stalkers are not manned by a physical entity, but by the "shadow essence" of a Dark Templar.
Also, the facility (apparently there was only 1, which makes absolutely no sense) to make Dragoons was infested, and apparently the Protoss don't know how to make Dragoons anymore, so they turned the existing Dragoons into Immortals. So if a Zealot is teleported from combat (when Protoss units "die", they don't actually die, they are teleported somewhere else) and is injured badly enough, there wouldn't be an Immortal waiting for them.
Considering how silly the above paragraph is, I will assume Blizzard made up that lore for the sake of making up lore, and we can assume the Protoss are happily making Immortals from scratch, and in a more realistic scenario, are still pumping out Dragoons like crazy as well.
It is pretty silly. Protoss are apparently being retconned into something of a technologically devolving species, especially with units like the Colossus and Mothership being "ancient forbidden weapons" that are being put back into use. Research and development for the Templar is actually relegated to the Khalai Caste, and in the original StarCraft, they were credited with Zealots' power armour and the Dragoon exoskeleton, not to mention turning a civilian vehicle into the Reaver. Anyway, if the Khalai were able to develop the Dragoon from scratch, surely they can recreate it from surviving Dragoons even if the production facilities are lost.
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On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men.
I can't tell if you're serious, but if you are you couldn't be farther from correct.
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I feel this comic from banelingbbq is highly relevant to the discussion.
And sign me up.
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Im such a sad Zealot these days ;< sign me up too!
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On September 28 2011 13:59 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 13:45 aZealot wrote:
That's not a valid comparison based on my understanding of SC2 lore. Zealots now return as Immortals while Dark Templar return as Stalkers. Immortals are cool, IMO, although a little uni-dimensional and situational, but I think a Zealot would not mind returning as an Immortal, at all. It's not dead Protoss that get put in Dragoons/Immortals or Stalkers, it's crippled Protoss. [/lore geek] Dragoons are simply Protoss wheelchairs .
Best wheelchair ever.
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Sign me up! I'm more of a crying dt though but yeah.
I just hate the way stalkers shoot, it looks and sounds very very weak, when compared to the dragoon .
That baneling bbq comic was quite cool.
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On September 28 2011 14:52 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. I can't tell if you're serious, but if you are you couldn't be farther from correct.
Bah, I used hyperbole and quite a bit, but the point is that the myth that Protoss isn't "innovating" is a myth. Many protoss players have been doing that a lot, including Protoss hero MC. It's like giving a guy a stick, and tell him to "innovate" in order to beat a BMP or M2, and despite he's discovered practically everything that can be done, he's still told to "innovate" while the Bradley gunner just needs to pull the trigger, and the chain gun does the rest of the work. Wut. Yes this analogy is a bit exaggerated, but I hope it helps get the point across.
The problem is that Protoss just has glaring flaws in design that have been addressed here and in many other threads (such as Protoss Tier 1 being ass because of the Warpgate mechanic). Unless you mean to tell me Protoss players in Korea are just terribad, I think the issue is deeper. Seeing how even DB has said Terran is too well-designed and has everything going fine, it isn't surprising that Korean play is heavily Terran-favored. Basically, we have to wait until HOTS for Blizzard to (hopefully) fix the DESIGN flaws (as DB put it in a August interview with gamespot) in the game and hopefully it will be more fine and balanced as a result.
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Sign me up. 30 ladder games and now im afraid to go to sleep. Scv line nightmares
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We need more sad zealot wallpapers I feel!
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On September 28 2011 15:03 Stanlot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 13:59 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On September 28 2011 13:45 aZealot wrote:
That's not a valid comparison based on my understanding of SC2 lore. Zealots now return as Immortals while Dark Templar return as Stalkers. Immortals are cool, IMO, although a little uni-dimensional and situational, but I think a Zealot would not mind returning as an Immortal, at all. It's not dead Protoss that get put in Dragoons/Immortals or Stalkers, it's crippled Protoss. [/lore geek] Dragoons are simply Protoss wheelchairs . Best wheelchair ever.
Lol? Do you not know of Professor X?
:p
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On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men.
Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on?
And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it.
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Cheer up, Zealot. There's now 1 P representative in the Ro16 of GSL! Huzzah!
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United States7483 Posts
On September 28 2011 12:18 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 08:11 Whitewing wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. If they want us to do immortal drops, maybe it should be possible to drop more than 2 in a warp prism, unless they only want us to pick off one or two supply depots before we have to leave. It's not like 2 immortals will pick off an important tech structure quickly enough, unless they're just ignored. 4 immortal drop vs Z tech building came to mind, and then I remembered that you could have been building collussi :/
Not to mention you need 2 warp prisms for that, which is more colossus building time, and you can't really afford to pull 4 immortals out of your deathball as Protoss.
Yeah, 4 immortals in speed warp prisms taking out a tech structure would be awesome, as long as you're careful and don't lose the warp prisms to fungal or something. That's an absurd investment to lose (1400 minerals and 400 gas) vs. what a terran 2 medivac drop with 8 marines each costs (which also takes out tech structures really fast): 1000 minerals and 200 gas
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sign me up... 
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On September 28 2011 13:59 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 13:45 aZealot wrote:
That's not a valid comparison based on my understanding of SC2 lore. Zealots now return as Immortals while Dark Templar return as Stalkers. Immortals are cool, IMO, although a little uni-dimensional and situational, but I think a Zealot would not mind returning as an Immortal, at all. It's not dead Protoss that get put in Dragoons/Immortals or Stalkers, it's crippled Protoss. [/lore geek] Dragoons are simply Protoss wheelchairs .
Oh? But why are they called Immortals then? Wouldn't that imply that they overcame their mortal death, in order to become even more powerful? Also, "I return to serve" seems like something they'd say if they were ressurected.
Did they return to serve from the protoss hospital? :O
ALSO, GOOD SIR, In the SC1 campaign Fenix died straight up as far as I can recall, but they ressurected him through means of dragoon-ing.
+ Show Spoiler + don't take what I say too seriously in this case please ^^
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On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it.
What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it.
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EPT
