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On September 29 2011 01:51 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it. What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it.
lol. I'm not debating, that is an honest question.
And I have watched MC games. Not a copious amount but quite a few. Ive never him do anything out of the ordinary like a spine crawler rush or something of that nature. I know he was very good with the stargate expand. He was also excellent in using two base timing pushes with really good FF micro. But nothing I saw was particularly revolutionary.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 29 2011 01:46 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 13:59 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On September 28 2011 13:45 aZealot wrote:
That's not a valid comparison based on my understanding of SC2 lore. Zealots now return as Immortals while Dark Templar return as Stalkers. Immortals are cool, IMO, although a little uni-dimensional and situational, but I think a Zealot would not mind returning as an Immortal, at all. It's not dead Protoss that get put in Dragoons/Immortals or Stalkers, it's crippled Protoss. [/lore geek] Dragoons are simply Protoss wheelchairs  . Oh? But why are they called Immortals then? Wouldn't that imply that they overcame their mortal death, in order to become even more powerful? Also, "I return to serve" seems like something they'd say if they were ressurected. Did they return to serve from the protoss hospital? :O ALSO, GOOD SIR, In the SC1 campaign Fenix died straight up as far as I can recall, but they ressurected him through means of dragoon-ing. + Show Spoiler + don't take what I say too seriously in this case please ^^
IIRC, Dragoons, stalkers and immortals are actually protoss who literally had their body die. Usually protoss bodies dissolve into psychic energy when they die as they join the khala (or the void in the case of the dark templar), but they can voluntarily keep their body whole and sustain themselves off of psychic energy instead of dying for a while until they get put into a dragoon body or stalker or immortal.
And the reason they are called Immortals is because of the hardened shield, it's a reference to how hard they are supposed to be to kill.
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On September 29 2011 01:53 Apollo_Shards wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:51 Olinim wrote:On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it. What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it. lol. I'm not debating, that is an honest question.
Umm..in PvT : 6 gate timing, he helped popularize chargelot archon play, Phoenix play in PvT, beating players like Select with it. He was also the first Protoss to consistently utilize heavy sentry play in PvZ and PvT. Even in IEM he beat Select using Warp prism/HT drops.
Basically created Stargate play in PvZ: Using a stargate after expand to be safe from all ins, and using Phoenix void harass. Other timings like Nexus cancel 4 gate as well. Phoenix Chargelot on Tal'darim is his build as well.
Even in PvP he has begun to make expansion builds work like in his series vs MaNa.
How you can describe Nestea as more innovative than MC is beyond me, the only build you could even call his is the spinecrawler rush, which he used like ONE time. That's not innovation, that's a neat trick. MC has been driving the protoss metagame for months.
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On September 29 2011 01:53 Apollo_Shards wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:51 Olinim wrote:On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it. What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it. lol. I'm not debating, that is an honest question.
MC developed/popularized most of the popular timing attacks vs. T and Z, and is a master of PvP.
He also developed the low-collosus vZ style (seen in his games vs. July in GSL March), templar storm drops during battles (seen vs. Select at IEM), helped open up Zealot-Archon to the general protoss public (Adapted from Genius, who is much less watched and admired). Also, his gateway play with blink stalker/charge zealot combo with mass upgrades (seen against NaDa in GSL January) was far superior to anything seen before from the pure gateway perspective (We had seen collosus variations from Tyler, and a half-developed version from Hongun v Rain). His macro play has always been solid macrowise, and before his fall, up until a while after his GSL march win, he EXTREMELY RARELY (and I watched like all of his games) lost a game he was allowed to secure three bases in. I can recall only 2 or 3 examples of all the games I watched, though I can't cite them offhand.
Also, yes, he Pioneered Stargate play vZ at MLG Columbus, adapted a superior chargelot phoenix rush build vZ against dKiller from Sage.
Only sage has shown even NEARLY the same amount of protoss innovation as this man has. Genius gets a semihonorable mention.
Nestea is not INNOVATIVE, per se, he's just a solid allaround player who has his timings DOWNNN. Ridiculously good? Yes! Innovative? Not as such. Losira, with the roachling allin and other innovations vP should be ranked higher than him in this contest.
Replying to your edit: The timing pushes and stargate plays he was "good" at, he was also the creator of.
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I think we've found a solution brothers! MIllion Dollar death polls will take us to the promised land.
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On September 29 2011 02:00 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:53 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 29 2011 01:51 Olinim wrote:On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it. What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it. lol. I'm not debating, that is an honest question. MC developed/popularized most of the popular timing attacks vs. T and Z, and is a master of PvP. He also developed the low-collosus vZ style (seen in his games vs. July in GSL March), templar storm drops during battles (seen vs. Select at IEM), helped open up Zealot-Archon to the general protoss public (Adapted from Genius, who is much less watched and admired). Also, his gateway play with blink stalker/charge zealot combo with mass upgrades (seen against NaDa in GSL January) was far superior to anything seen before from the pure gateway perspective (We had seen collosus variations from Tyler, and a half-developed version from Hongun v Rain). His macro play has always been solid macrowise, and before his fall, up until a while after his GSL march win, he EXTREMELY RARELY (and I watched like all of his games) lost a game he was allowed to secure three bases in. I can recall only 2 or 3 examples of all the games I watched, though I can't cite them offhand. Also, yes, he Pioneered Stargate play vZ at MLG Columbus, adapted a superior chargelot phoenix rush build vZ against dKiller from Sage. Only sage has shown even NEARLY the same amount of protoss innovation as this man has. Genius gets a semihonorable mention. Nestea is not INNOVATIVE, per se, he's just a solid allaround player who has his timings DOWNNN. Ridiculously good? Yes! Innovative? Not as such. Losira, with the roachling allin and other innovations vP should be ranked higher than him in this contest. Replying to your edit: The timing pushes and stargate plays he was "good" at, he was also the creator of.
Ok, yea I was familiar with the stargate play. And I knew that it wasnt MC who first game up with the Zealot/Archon but I guess he refined it? And I didnt know about the mass gateways.
Thank your enlightening me kindly 
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On September 29 2011 02:02 Sabu113 wrote:
I think we've found a solution brothers! MIllion Dollar death polls will take us to the promised land. You may thank me and pikagrue later for saving the Protoss race.
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On September 29 2011 02:00 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:53 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 29 2011 01:51 Olinim wrote:On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it. What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it. lol. I'm not debating, that is an honest question. MC developed/popularized most of the popular timing attacks vs. T and Z, and is a master of PvP. He also developed the low-collosus vZ style (seen in his games vs. July in GSL March), templar storm drops during battles (seen vs. Select at IEM), helped open up Zealot-Archon to the general protoss public (Adapted from Genius, who is much less watched and admired). Also, his gateway play with blink stalker/charge zealot combo with mass upgrades (seen against NaDa in GSL January) was far superior to anything seen before from the pure gateway perspective (We had seen collosus variations from Tyler, and a half-developed version from Hongun v Rain). His macro play has always been solid macrowise, and before his fall, up until a while after his GSL march win, he EXTREMELY RARELY (and I watched like all of his games) lost a game he was allowed to secure three bases in. I can recall only 2 or 3 examples of all the games I watched, though I can't cite them offhand. Also, yes, he Pioneered Stargate play vZ at MLG Columbus, adapted a superior chargelot phoenix rush build vZ against dKiller from Sage. Only sage has shown even NEARLY the same amount of protoss innovation as this man has. Genius gets a semihonorable mention. Nestea is not INNOVATIVE, per se, he's just a solid allaround player who has his timings DOWNNN. Ridiculously good? Yes! Innovative? Not as such. Losira, with the roachling allin and other innovations vP should be ranked higher than him in this contest. Replying to your edit: The timing pushes and stargate plays he was "good" at, he was also the creator of.
Well said.
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MC also popularized PvZ DT expand + blink stalker timing attacks off of DT expand. He was the first protoss I really remember going into mass blink stalker play instead of rushing to colossi, as shown in the GSL finals versus July. Also some interesting variations on types of expansions such as stalker/sentry/sentry one-gate expand versus terran and two gate stargate expo versus zerg instead of three gate sentry expo. He is also the first person I ever saw use 3 gate stargate against walled-off terrans.
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On September 29 2011 01:53 Apollo_Shards wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:51 Olinim wrote:On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it. What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it. lol. I'm not debating, that is an honest question.
If you're looking for a history lesson, I'm bored enough to give you one. MC:
-introduced void ray pressure vs walling Terrans to either win outright vs a greedy build, or kill 2 depots and force turrets and take an earlier expansion vs a safe build. Other Protoss players gave up on using the void ray after the 30% damage nerf it received.
-first demonstrated the power of 3 gate pressure expand vs Terran. Most people thought Protoss had to go completely all-in to kill Terran early on.
-was the first to use 6 gate vs Terran successfully. Before, people had no idea it could work because Tester tried it in PvT several times and always lost while looking like an idiot.
-introduced the FF donut and torched most of Byun's bio units in a single colossus shot
-popularized a gateway-focused style in PvT after Khaydarin Amulet was removed. Everybody else thought that patch made colossi the only viable option.
-was the first to go blink before charge in gateway-focused PvT.
-introduced 2 stargate phoenix in PvT in the NASL finals.
-came up with a forge FE into stargate build with a 100% success rate vs a 1 base roach all-in, but also transitioned into a macro game pretty well with void ray/phoenix harass.
-invented the 1 gate expand into 3gates and fast stargate vs Zerg's roach/speedling pressure/all-in. This ended the era of Zergs collecting free wins over sentry-expanding Protoss players with that timing. Stargates became the standard in PvZ after MC's dominance over both cheesy and macro Zergs in MLG Columbus. Losira's roach/speedling timing consequently became extinct.
-simultaneously revealed his DT fast expand which also holds off that roach/speedling attack.
-invented the 3 hidden zealots opening vs Idra.
I didn't bother watching PvP but I heard he also invented the trick where you want for your opponent to leave his base with his stalker/zealot/probe and then walk your back probe back into his main and build pylons there.
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On September 29 2011 03:27 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:53 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 29 2011 01:51 Olinim wrote:On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it. What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it. lol. I'm not debating, that is an honest question. If you're looking for a history lesson, I'm bored enough to give you one. MC: -introduced void ray pressure vs walling Terrans to either win outright vs a greedy build, or kill 2 depots and force turrets and take an earlier expansion vs a safe build. Other Protoss players gave up on using the void ray after the 30% damage nerf it received. -first demonstrated the power of 3 gate pressure expand vs Terran. Most people thought Protoss had to go completely all-in to kill Terran early on. -was the first to use 6 gate vs Terran successfully. Before, people had no idea it could work because Tester tried it in PvT several times and always lost while looking like an idiot. -introduced the FF donut and torched most of Byun's bio units in a single colossus shot -popularized a gateway-focused style in PvT after Khaydarin Amulet was removed. Everybody else thought that patch made colossi the only viable option. -was the first to go blink before charge in gateway-focused PvT. -introduced 2 stargate phoenix in PvT in the NASL finals. -came up with a forge FE into stargate build with a 100% success rate vs a 1 base roach all-in, but also transitioned into a macro game pretty well with void ray/phoenix harass. -invented the 1 gate expand into 3gates and fast stargate vs Zerg's roach/speedling pressure/all-in. This ended the era of Zergs collecting free wins over sentry-expanding Protoss players with that timing. Stargates became the standard in PvZ after MC's dominance over both cheesy and macro Zergs in MLG Columbus. Losira's roach/speedling timing consequently became extinct. -simultaneously revealed his DT fast expand which also holds off that roach/speedling attack. -invented the 3 hidden zealots opening vs Idra. I didn't bother watching PvP but I heard he also invented the trick where you want for your opponent to leave his base with his stalker/zealot/probe and then walk your back probe back into his main and build pylons there.
Ah, thanks for that lesson... I guess I forgot some stuff over time, as I didn't really follow the beginning of his run in GSL. 3 gate expand I forgot, FF donut I forgot to mention. I also forgot to mention 2 stargate phoenix pvt, which is being heavily used by HerO right now ^^, its such a cool style.
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On September 28 2011 14:21 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:03 aZealot wrote:
Yeah, good point. I did know that lol, but had forgotten.
However, the point remains that Zealots, afaik, return as Immortals and not as Stalkers.
(Speaking of lore, I hope HOTS return Protoss to more of the SC1/BW feel of Protoss. The campaign in SC1 and characters like Fenix, Zeratul and Tassadar are a good part of the reason I fell in love with Protoss, and picked them as my race for all time; that, and the badass units.) Stalkers are not manned by a physical entity, but by the "shadow essence" of a Dark Templar. Also, the facility (apparently there was only 1, which makes absolutely no sense) to make Dragoons was infested, and apparently the Protoss don't know how to make Dragoons anymore, so they turned the existing Dragoons into Immortals. So if a Zealot is teleported from combat (when Protoss units "die", they don't actually die, they are teleported somewhere else) and is injured badly enough, there wouldn't be an Immortal waiting for them. Considering how silly the above paragraph is, I will assume Blizzard made up that lore for the sake of making up lore, and we can assume the Protoss are happily making Immortals from scratch, and in a more realistic scenario, are still pumping out Dragoons like crazy as well.
Isn't that just the psychic essence of dead/crippled Dark Templars though? And therefore the same as with Zealots and Dragoons/Immortals? I also thought that the reason Protoss abandoned the Dragoon and went with the Immortal was because the Dragoon shrine on Aiur had been infested, and that continuing the production of Dragoons could not continue until the Shrine was 'cleansed' and 'purified'. I think this makes more sense than the explanation that the facility was infested and the knowledge has been lost - which, if it is the Blizzard explanation, is completely and utterly retarded.
And yeah, let's keep the Protoss balance discussion/qq out of this thread. Sad Zealot does not need it.
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On September 29 2011 03:27 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:53 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 29 2011 01:51 Olinim wrote:On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it. What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it. lol. I'm not debating, that is an honest question. If you're looking for a history lesson, I'm bored enough to give you one. MC: -introduced void ray pressure vs walling Terrans to either win outright vs a greedy build, or kill 2 depots and force turrets and take an earlier expansion vs a safe build. Other Protoss players gave up on using the void ray after the 30% damage nerf it received. -first demonstrated the power of 3 gate pressure expand vs Terran. Most people thought Protoss had to go completely all-in to kill Terran early on. -was the first to use 6 gate vs Terran successfully. Before, people had no idea it could work because Tester tried it in PvT several times and always lost while looking like an idiot. -introduced the FF donut and torched most of Byun's bio units in a single colossus shot -popularized a gateway-focused style in PvT after Khaydarin Amulet was removed. Everybody else thought that patch made colossi the only viable option. -was the first to go blink before charge in gateway-focused PvT. -introduced 2 stargate phoenix in PvT in the NASL finals. -came up with a forge FE into stargate build with a 100% success rate vs a 1 base roach all-in, but also transitioned into a macro game pretty well with void ray/phoenix harass. -invented the 1 gate expand into 3gates and fast stargate vs Zerg's roach/speedling pressure/all-in. This ended the era of Zergs collecting free wins over sentry-expanding Protoss players with that timing. Stargates became the standard in PvZ after MC's dominance over both cheesy and macro Zergs in MLG Columbus. Losira's roach/speedling timing consequently became extinct. -simultaneously revealed his DT fast expand which also holds off that roach/speedling attack. -invented the 3 hidden zealots opening vs Idra. I didn't bother watching PvP but I heard he also invented the trick where you want for your opponent to leave his base with his stalker/zealot/probe and then walk your back probe back into his main and build pylons there.
Oh wow! Thank you to both you and Qtip. Both were very informative and nice write ups!
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To my Protoss Brethren...
I know what you're thinkin
Toss is goin down...
I can feel the sinkin
Then I came around...
And everyone I cheered before
Flashed before my eyes
And nothing mattered anymore
Because Killer's on the rise
Well I wanted something better man
I hoped for MC too
I wished for something beautiful
There's potential in Sage too
Well we're lookin for a reason man
something to lose
When the wheels come down
When the wheels touch ground
And you feel that it's all over
There's another round for you
When the wheels come down
When the wheels come down
I know your head is spinning
Broken hearts will mend
This is armageddon,
MC to code B they did send.
Well you wanted something better man
You wished for something new
Well you wanted something beautiful
You wished for something true
Been lookin for a reason man
But SangHo ain't gonna lose!
When the wheels come down
When the wheels touch ground
And you feel that it's all over,
There's another round for you
When the wheels come down
When the wheels come down
SangHo for GSL October Champ!!!!!!!!
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On September 29 2011 01:46 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 13:59 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On September 28 2011 13:45 aZealot wrote:
That's not a valid comparison based on my understanding of SC2 lore. Zealots now return as Immortals while Dark Templar return as Stalkers. Immortals are cool, IMO, although a little uni-dimensional and situational, but I think a Zealot would not mind returning as an Immortal, at all. It's not dead Protoss that get put in Dragoons/Immortals or Stalkers, it's crippled Protoss. [/lore geek] Dragoons are simply Protoss wheelchairs . Oh? But why are they called Immortals then? Wouldn't that imply that they overcame their mortal death, in order to become even more powerful? Also, "I return to serve" seems like something they'd say if they were ressurected. Did they return to serve from the protoss hospital? :O ALSO, GOOD SIR, In the SC1 campaign Fenix died straight up as far as I can recall, but they ressurected him through means of dragoon-ing. + Show Spoiler + don't take what I say too seriously in this case please ^^
You're quite correct about Fenix, good sir. The game does tell us he was killed in battle before we leave Aiur. However, this contradicts our other sources, so the most reasonable assumption is either this was changed somewhere along StarCraft's development, or that we were intended to believe that Fenix was dead, whereas he was simply mortally wounded. After all, Tassadar expresses surprise at seeing Fenix again because he was believed dead. If Dragoons were resurrected Templar, then surely as an Executor Tassadar wouldn't be too surprised.
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These are sad times when I'm so happy for just 1 Protoss to make it to the Ro16.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
How do you know the situation looks desesperate?
When every protoss are happy because one guy could reach the round of 16...
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We're all hoping for TSL FruitKiller .
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On September 29 2011 01:59 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:53 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 29 2011 01:51 Olinim wrote:On September 28 2011 23:38 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 12:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 28 2011 08:06 Apollo_Shards wrote:On September 28 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote:On September 28 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:
this is unnecessary,
Protoss just got a buff, just because you can't adapt doesnt mean you should be sad! Right... because that +1 range to Immortals and the extra Warp Prism shields have completely solved Terran 1-1-1, Ghosts, Infestors and Zerg's insane macro. Sad Zealot still sad. :'( Balance complaints wont solve the protoss decline. Blizzard will do what it wants. Maybe they are telling Protoss to do Immortal drops? But seriously we need a Nestea for protoss. MC was a great player but he didn't innovate quite as much as his Zerg counterpart. The reason why MC fell to Code B was that he tried to innovate. The problem is that there's few things Protoss can do that is effective, while there it is the complete opposite with Terran, and Zerg even has more options than Toss that kick ass. The thing is that Protoss isn't designed well, especially compared to Terran that was designed way too well, as even admitted by DB. Immortal drops? Can Immortals kill 20 workers in a microsecond like hellions, mutas, and stimrines can? I don't think so. You don't think pros haven't tried that and seen it is not efficient nor effective? Of course they have. Protoss is by far the most innovative and explored, because Protoss has always had to adapt to the slightest discovery like Terran actually using Ghosts, or Zergs actually learning what Infestors are. When Zerg has trouble, they get HUGE buffs from Blizzard. When Protoss has trouble? They have to be as creative and bold as Nikola Tesla and get shit done like real men. Again, I wasnt being too serious about the immortal drops. Although I did see Opitkzero use it last night. What did MC innovate on? And can we not make balance complaints in this thread :/. It gets tiresome to read and I really dont think this particular thread is the place to do it. What did MC innovate on...are you serious? It's clear you've never even watched an MC game so why even bother debating you about it. lol. I'm not debating, that is an honest question. Umm..in PvT : 6 gate timing, he helped popularize chargelot archon play, Phoenix play in PvT, beating players like Select with it. He was also the first Protoss to consistently utilize heavy sentry play in PvZ and PvT. Even in IEM he beat Select using Warp prism/HT drops. Basically created Stargate play in PvZ: Using a stargate after expand to be safe from all ins, and using Phoenix void harass. Other timings like Nexus cancel 4 gate as well. Phoenix Chargelot on Tal'darim is his build as well. Even in PvP he has begun to make expansion builds work like in his series vs MaNa. How you can describe Nestea as more innovative than MC is beyond me, the only build you could even call his is the spinecrawler rush, which he used like ONE time. That's not innovation, that's a neat trick. MC has been driving the protoss metagame for months.
I was in agreement with your post until you mentioned NesTea. Sure MC is innovative, but don't be suicidal and compare anyone to NesTea. He is practically the godfather of zerg. Whatever he uses in his recent ZvZ match becomes the ladder metagame for the next month. He is a pioneer of a dull, variety-less race.
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EPT
