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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On June 01 2011 01:37 derive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 23:34 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 31 2011 21:58 Mailing wrote:On May 31 2011 21:40 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 31 2011 17:38 damod wrote:On May 31 2011 17:29 Maliris wrote:
Idra should show more respect to minigun... minigun was outmacroing, outmicroing and outplaying idra there and idra just flames him play zerg against toss, lose to forcefields in such manner and then comeback and tell idra to show him respect. when i lose to toss because of FF i dont flame him or something, but i am mad about it because i know that its not me that did something wrong, but its the toss that did something well... The P>>Z thing is a thing of the past lol. Zergs have been finding ways to beat Protoss, and in NASL ZvP is actually 55% in favor of zerg. Idra's strengths are his multitasking, mechanics, and drone timings. That being said, he's always had a habit of microing poorly and engaging in bad positions, and those games were no exception. Also you could always get roach burrow to deal with forcefields so I don't see the "I can't do anything about it" having too much validity. If you look at the best players, P are doing just fine, and winning against zerg more than losing. IdrA, Ret, Sen, Zenio, MorroW, July vs Naniwa, White-Ra, Hasuobs, Kiwikaki, Squirtle, Ace
Kiwi -> lost to 2 terrans
WhiteRa -> lost to July (korean) and a protoss
Squirtle -> lost to a terran
NaNi -> lost to terran and protoss
Ace -> lost to 2 terrans
Hasuobs -> lost to 2 protoss and a terran.So yeaaaaah, when you take players ike IdrA or Sen or July and put them against people like Mana, tt1, artosis, grubby, Cruncher and Tyler (who has been in a rut), then the stats can be skewed  That didn't make any sense. I'm talking about direct stats. ZvP in NASL right now is 48-39, that's a 55% win rate for Zergs. How are Protoss winning against Zergs more than they are losing? I also love how any time a Zerg beats a Protoss it's always assumed te Zerg player was better but it's never worked the other way around. Oh, Zerg's doing well in a league? Here, let me look at all of the series and show you why the Zerg players were unanimously better than the Protoss players and deserved to win. Forget doing that for the Protoss players who beat Zergs. Direct stats need some analysis, especially considering that there's protoss that aren't THAT good in NASL. Artosis/Grubby are good but most players in the league are better. The fact that top protoss rarely loose a BoX against Zerg is significant. Also if you put the NASL stats aside, lots of pro Zerg have been pointing out some problems concerning PvZ, and I believe GSL stats also tend to show it (not totally sure though).
This becomes biased as fuck though... So the fact that top Protoss rarely lose a BoX against Zerg is significant, but the wins of top Zergs aren't included in your statements. Also, Zergs pointing out concerns is also biased, everyone has some complaints about other races, it comes down to pointing the pros of their race and the cons of yours to make your race look weak in the matchup.
Earlier someone named some of the top Protoss players and how they've only lost to Terran or Protoss... Well this goes both ways guys, it balances out.
Here, let me do the same thing for Zerg players... July, lost to a Terran, IdrA, lost to two Zergs, Sen, lost to a Terran, Zenio, lost to a Terran and a Zerg, Ret(Since White-ra was mentioned despite losing to a Zerg), lost to a Korean Protoss and that's it...
Also, GSL stats don't tend to show that PvZ is problematic for Zerg, they're doing quite well in the matchup.
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On June 01 2011 01:37 derive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 23:34 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 31 2011 21:58 Mailing wrote:On May 31 2011 21:40 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 31 2011 17:38 damod wrote:On May 31 2011 17:29 Maliris wrote:
Idra should show more respect to minigun... minigun was outmacroing, outmicroing and outplaying idra there and idra just flames him play zerg against toss, lose to forcefields in such manner and then comeback and tell idra to show him respect. when i lose to toss because of FF i dont flame him or something, but i am mad about it because i know that its not me that did something wrong, but its the toss that did something well... The P>>Z thing is a thing of the past lol. Zergs have been finding ways to beat Protoss, and in NASL ZvP is actually 55% in favor of zerg. Idra's strengths are his multitasking, mechanics, and drone timings. That being said, he's always had a habit of microing poorly and engaging in bad positions, and those games were no exception. Also you could always get roach burrow to deal with forcefields so I don't see the "I can't do anything about it" having too much validity. If you look at the best players, P are doing just fine, and winning against zerg more than losing. IdrA, Ret, Sen, Zenio, MorroW, July vs Naniwa, White-Ra, Hasuobs, Kiwikaki, Squirtle, Ace
Kiwi -> lost to 2 terrans
WhiteRa -> lost to July (korean) and a protoss
Squirtle -> lost to a terran
NaNi -> lost to terran and protoss
Ace -> lost to 2 terrans
Hasuobs -> lost to 2 protoss and a terran.So yeaaaaah, when you take players ike IdrA or Sen or July and put them against people like Mana, tt1, artosis, grubby, Cruncher and Tyler (who has been in a rut), then the stats can be skewed That didn't make any sense. I'm talking about direct stats. ZvP in NASL right now is 48-39, that's a 55% win rate for Zergs. How are Protoss winning against Zergs more than they are losing? I also love how any time a Zerg beats a Protoss it's always assumed te Zerg player was better but it's never worked the other way around. Oh, Zerg's doing well in a league? Here, let me look at all of the series and show you why the Zerg players were unanimously better than the Protoss players and deserved to win. Forget doing that for the Protoss players who beat Zergs. Direct stats need some analysis, especially considering that there's protoss that aren't THAT good in NASL. Artosis/Grubby are good but most players in the league are better. The fact that top protoss rarely loose a BoX against Zerg is significant. Also if you put the NASL stats aside, lots of pro Zerg have been pointing out some problems concerning PvZ, and I believe GSL stats also tend to show it (not totally sure though).
Alright, I'll say MoMan isn't good, yet he beat InControl. There's a top Protoss losing to a Zerg he's worse than...
My problem is that Zerg whiners are so biased when looking at any stats. If there's a statistic that reflects Zerg doing poorly against Protoss then it gets quoted. Now I bring a statistic that says ZvP is fine and all off a sudden it's because the Zerg players were all clearly better than the Protoss players.
A Zerg won GSL? "Yea, it's because Nestea outclassed his opponenets".
A Protoss won GSL? "Yea, MC really abused forcefield imbalance he's actually not that good"
It's impossible to effectively analyze every data point in a set of statistics. Statistics as a whole is used to draw conclusions about a large population based on a limited but hopefully representative sample. We can't take 50 ZvP games, look at all off the games, and deduce which ones are relevant to a balance discussion, it's just impractical. That's why we rely on large samples to average out these variables.
My point was simply that statistics in the GSL and NASL aren't showing any proof of Protoss being overpowered against Zerg recently. Until the top leagues all generate clear evidence of Zergs having bad winrates against Protoss, it's just silly to cry imbalance on a whim, especially citing games like Minigun vs Idra where Idra clearly made mistakes that could be avoided. Zergs are doing fine, winrates are fine, top Zergs like Idra are having more success, and a Zerg just won the GSL. Complaining about ZvP right now just seems baseless.
On June 01 2011 02:24 Olsson wrote:
So TheSubtleArt you are saying that Pheonix rush into colussus versus Zerg isnt abusable/op?
Are you saying that Zerg has enough scouting options do know what toss is doing in T1?
Are you saying that forcefields that last 15 seconds are not op/broken?
Absolutely yes to the 1st and 3rd; they're not imbalanced (especially void ray / collosus with the infestor buff). Zerg early game scouting as a whole is something I've always felt needed a minor buff, but not to the extent that I'd call a whole matchup broken.
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So TheSubtleArt you are saying that Pheonix rush into colussus versus Zerg isnt abusable/op?
Are you saying that Zerg has enough scouting options do know what toss is doing in T1?
Are you saying that forcefields that last 15 seconds are not op/broken?
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm not sure I'd call Incontrol a top protoss. His only decent showing came when protoss was winning everything and since then he's been mediocre at best
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On June 01 2011 02:24 Olsson wrote:
So TheSubtleArt you are saying that Pheonix rush into colussus versus Zerg isnt abusable/op?
Are you saying that Zerg has enough scouting options do know what toss is doing in T1?
Are you saying that forcefields that last 15 seconds are not op/broken?
He's not, and you're trying to put words in his mouth, but I'll bite.
Sure, I don't have any reason to say those are broken or overpowered right now, there's tons of things you could cite for any race as being strong, not an issue.
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I think part of Zerg tears come from Protoss being the easiest 1a race to play. Someone could have terrible micro and multitasking but still beat you, which leaves you very sour indeed. This is also why Zergs have started to drop. Protoss players rely so much on abuse that they actually suck at multitasking and looking on the mini map. Tyler, who is not an abusive Toss, made roach and hydra drops look like a terrible idea just by not being the no skill 1a toss.
Toss was also the easy race in bw, but had the least success at the top, despite being easier to play. Toss was still just as good as the others, just no single Toss was adept at all 3 matchups.
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On June 01 2011 02:28 1Eris1 wrote:
I'm not sure I'd call Incontrol a top protoss. His only decent showing came when protoss was winning everything and since then he's been mediocre at best
Couldn't agree more... The only other thing that he has accomplished was 4th in MLG other than that there isn't much tell... :O
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On June 01 2011 03:06 Micket wrote:
I think part of Zerg tears come from Protoss being the easiest 1a race to play. Someone could have terrible micro and multitasking but still beat you, which leaves you very sour indeed. This is also why Zergs have started to drop. Protoss players rely so much on abuse that they actually suck at multitasking and looking on the mini map. Tyler, who is not an abusive Toss, made roach and hydra drops look like a terrible idea just by not being the no skill 1a toss.
Toss was also the easy race in bw, but had the least success at the top, despite being easier to play. Toss was still just as good as the others, just no single Toss was adept at all 3 matchups.
In terms of battle micro, Toss and terran is much less 1a then zerg in sc2. Zerg 1a into /toss army toss has to ff to split army into piece. I think ff>1a takes a lot more micro. Pheonix micro is obvisouly harder than muta micro as pheonix you still need to use graviton beam. Storm micro is harder than fungal micro as storm has casting delay. Splitting marine is much harder than clicking banelings to the marine group. Chasing mutas around with ground units is much harder than using muta to harass. I really don't get how zerg can complain about micro.
People has been saying Nestea has been only winning versus toss because they are bad. But guess what? Those toss are basically the best toss in the world right now. So when the best toss and the best zerg faces? Zerg wins. The good toss suddently became nub. How many toss is better than anypro in PvZ? I mean other than MC there isn't really a toss doing that well versus zerg. MC isn't even that great in late game PvZ. If people haven't realized, MC has a early game/mid game timing based toss. I wouldn't even say his late game PvZ is as good as anypro's late game PvZ/ A previosu poster said my point exactly. Everytime a top zerg beats a toss, its because he is skilled but vice versa is not true which is just wrong. I mean Anypro isn't as good as Nestea but he is still one of the best toss around.
Im just saying if you think good toss rarely lose to zerg in a BoX, name a few toss that are better than anypro in PvZ?
I can name Maybe Slayers_alicia? MC? I mean even MC with the most broken PvZ is only has around 65% win rate versus korean zerg. While Nestea has an 85% win rate versus korean toss. I just don't see which toss, top zergs apparently can't take a BOx off of?
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On June 01 2011 03:16 tGFuRy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 02:28 1Eris1 wrote:
I'm not sure I'd call Incontrol a top protoss. His only decent showing came when protoss was winning everything and since then he's been mediocre at best Couldn't agree more... The only other thing that he has accomplished was 4th in MLG other than that there isn't much tell... :O
what are you talking about? He places 4:th in MLG, he is 4-3 in NASL, he won over Ensnare, CrunCher(meh ok.. ), QXC and WhiteRA... you calling that isnt much to tell? What are your expectations ?
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How am I NOT in this fanclub?
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On June 01 2011 03:46 aderum wrote:
what are you talking about? He places 4:th in MLG, he is 4-3 in NASL, he won over Ensnare, CrunCher(meh ok.. ), QXC and WhiteRA... you calling that isnt much to tell? What are your expectations ?
He lost quite a bit recently. Actually his last accomplishment is this MLG. You could see that on something like his GG profile.
On June 01 2011 03:32 xbankx wrote:
Im just saying if you think good toss rarely lose to zerg in a BoX, name a few toss that are better than anypro in PvZ?
White-Ra, Naniwa, HasuObs. They loose sometime, but it's honestly quite rare.
Also stats are kinda volatile and all we all agree on that. The reason why Zerg whine about it is because a lot of pro Zerg have been pointing it out, and it definitely feel quite hard probably whatever the level your playing at. The relative "easy race" feeling you get when you play against a Zerg probably has a role (whether it's actually true or not).
Also Zerg seems to have an hard time winning a big tour right now (and no IPL doesn't count).
EDIT:
Also, GSL stats don't tend to show that PvZ is problematic for Zerg, they're doing quite well in the matchup.
P 5 - 2 Z in current GSL tourney.
I know it's not significant with so few matches, but 5-2 is not "quite well".
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On June 01 2011 04:08 derive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:46 aderum wrote:
what are you talking about? He places 4:th in MLG, he is 4-3 in NASL, he won over Ensnare, CrunCher(meh ok.. ), QXC and WhiteRA... you calling that isnt much to tell? What are your expectations ? He lost quite a bit recently. Actually his last accomplishment is this MLG. You could see that on something like his GG profile. Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:32 xbankx wrote:
Im just saying if you think good toss rarely lose to zerg in a BoX, name a few toss that are better than anypro in PvZ?
White-Ra, Naniwa, HasuObs. They loose sometime, but it's honestly quite rare. Also stats are kinda volatile and all we all agree on that. The reason why Zerg whine about it is because a lot of pro Zerg have been pointing it out, and it definitely feel quite hard probably whatever the level your playing at. The relative "easy race" feeling you get when you play against a Zerg probably has a role (whether it's actually true or not). Also Zerg seems to have an hard time winning a big tour right now (and no IPL doesn't count).
You really think those players have better PvZ than anypro? What competition have they faced? White ra have basically lost to every single top zerg in a bo3. He lost twice to Idra in a clean 0-2 sweep. Hasuobs. Look at his competition? Who is Lori? I mean can you really say oh Hasu can 2-0 lori. Congratz. If you place him agaisnt any top korean zergs, he probably get rolled. Naniwa is a maybe he does have strong PvZ, but nowhere is he as dominating. He maybe have face sen, ret, and Idra and both won and lost agaisnt them.
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On June 01 2011 03:06 Micket wrote:
I think part of Zerg tears come from Protoss being the easiest 1a race to play. Someone could have terrible micro and multitasking but still beat you, which leaves you very sour indeed. This is also why Zergs have started to drop. Protoss players rely so much on abuse that they actually suck at multitasking and looking on the mini map. Tyler, who is not an abusive Toss, made roach and hydra drops look like a terrible idea just by not being the no skill 1a toss.
Toss was also the easy race in bw, but had the least success at the top, despite being easier to play. Toss was still just as good as the others, just no single Toss was adept at all 3 matchups.
I think Zerg players started dropping to avoid the wall in and the FF on the ramp/choke that drives you at the Protoss natural so you can punish players that are too greedy in therms of tech.
Saying that toss players suck at multitasking based on the fact that zerg mass drop hydra roach works sometime vs a Toss that tech too hard it's ridicolus. I saw Toss players (expecially on the EU server) deal with multiple Terran drops and make them look silly.
And tbh Terran players are way better then Z players at doing harass with drops and multitasking.
Also I think that zerg micro in SC2 is way easyer then P and expecially T micro.
Add the fact that during a battle basically you can always remacro your army just by pressing 4/5s*insert unit hotkey*.
The hard part about zerg is not on macro and micro but it's about decision making.
I agree that Zerg is an hard race but not becouse of macro and micro.
I hope you guys understand my post. My english is pretty bad. Sorry for the mistakes.
@derive: "Also Zerg seems to have an hard time winning a big tour right now (and no IPL doesn't count)."
Can you tell me who won the last GSL? Wasn't that NesTea?!
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None I think, that's why it's hard to evaluate the level of Foreigner vs Kr. I just think that they are better in PvZ but I would say that it's hard to know for sure.
In my opinion, most Foreign vs KR showed that Top foreign were actually on par with the top level KR, so considering the protoss I named win top EU Zerg on a regular basis, I would say that they are better in PvZ. It can be considered Subjective though, I agree.
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Jesus fucking christ...
IdrA lost three ladder-games to a toss - Of course it's not fun to see, but come on, this is NOT the official "bitch here whenever zerg loses"-section of the forum. I agree with several quotes regarding ZvP imbalance and such, but why does this happen after some losses on the ladder, and especially in IdrA's own fanclub?
Can't we just keep the entire "Z are the best/worst most bm fans"-discussion out of this, please!?
LEAVE BALANCE ALOOOOOOOOONE!
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ummm. could you guys stop shitting on the idra fanclub thread with a balance argument? go make a skype group and talk it over there or something.
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Whole agrees with me. All future arguments are now rendered invalid.
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On June 01 2011 04:27 derive wrote:
None I think, that's why it's hard to evaluate the level of Foreigner vs Kr. I just think that they are better in PvZ but I would say that it's hard to know for sure.
In my opinion, most Foreign vs KR showed that Top foreign were actually on par with the top level KR, so considering the protoss I named win top EU Zerg on a regular basis, I would say that they are better in PvZ. It can be considered Subjective though, I agree.
Considering moon is one of the worst korean zergs and took got 3rd in a top european tourney. I don't think Europeans are very good at PvZ.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg610/scaled.php?tn=0&server=610&filename=j4a.png&xsize=640&ysize=640)
