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On April 06 2018 23:26 Unleashing wrote:
I began watching hanasaku iroha but the way MC was treated by most characters at the start made me stop watching, i didn't drop it but i had to stop watching because i was honestly just beginning to dislike most of the cast. I'll probably return to it eventually.
I don't believe that a person's actions can be excused by them being old, sure it might be the explanation, but MC was treated so poorly it left a very bad taste in my mouth.
You can write a character to be strict without them coming off as cold, heartless and frankly cruel. It just becomes offputting and frankly makes it impossible to ever make the grandmother a likable character.
It's not like i'm just gonna suddenly forget how she treated MC.
I didn't excuse her actions, I explained how they aren't that far fetched. I find it interesting people who haven't actually watched the show have a strong opinion on it's characters. How can you know what does or does not happen? You've witnessed one act and now formed an opinion. Is very character that does a bad thing irredeemable? Can they not change? Should every story merely have characters that do good things?
At the end of the day the show is about change. About the world changing, about the characters changing and about the viewer changing. If you don't want to watch it so be it but I think dismissing it completely because you watched a few eps is pretty disingenuous.
For reference I think they did a good job of growing the grandmother. She is never the most kind of gentle character but definitely becomes somehow who did bad things to others but learns to be better person. Unfortunately seems like people don't want this from their stories. I'm not just singling out you two in this rant. I see this opinion aired so much every time Iroha comes up. People watch a few eps, see the gran being a massive cunt then decide that's all there is and never watch any more.
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First of all, i didn't claim that you excused her actions, i just wrote my own thoughts about it and i agree that old age is an explanation, but i just wanted to point out that it isn't an excuse because i see a lot of people who use this logic elsewhere(that an explanation is an excuse), not claiming that you tried to excuse it.
Also, i did watch the show, i didn't claim that i watched all of it, in fact i even stated how far i had gotten and also stated that i was going to return to the show (specifically stating i hadn't dropped it). But only having watched a part of it doesn't prevent me from having an opinion on the characters, a character like a person is defined by what they do, if you have a character treat people poorly then why can i not have the opinion that they are a shitty person? Am i not allowed to have this opinion until i finish the show? I mean no, every charcater that does bad things is not irredeemable and i didn't claim that, but i have some pretty strong opinions on how japan handles redemptions and apologies in general and as such i find it incredibly unlikely that the story is ever going to make me like the grandmother.
So no, every story shouldn't just have characters do good things, but the more things you add to the "Awful shit the grandmother" did list the harder it becomes for the story to imo solve it in a satisfactory manner especially because the character is old.
When a character fails to show any sympathy for another person, especially a person that has in no way slighted them and genuinely just needs help and support, then i have a hard time believing that person is gonna suddenly have a change of heart. Or rather, more specifically i doubt the author is going to write it in a way where i buy it. My mind is however open, if the author pulls it off then i'll accept it readily, i just doubt that it'll happen based on how i see japan in general deal with redemptions and apologies. Not to mention that how a person treats someone else when they first meet them honestly tells more about their character than if they warm up to someone and begin treating them better later. The fact that they treated them like shit at first still remains and isn't going to go away unless the character goes out of their way to make up for it.
I mean christ you have a character that repeatedly tells the main character to die(with this being the equivalent of just going "Kill yourself") when she's at her lowest low, this is absolutely unacceptable. And people in the series who know said character personally seemingly just brush it off as a bad joke or ignore it, like what the fuck? In general barely any of the characters offer her any support or help, they seemingly expect her to just do things perfectly right away and if she doesn't it just results in more ridicule or belittlement.
The way a story starts is incredibly important with regards to:
1: If people will keep following the story
2: How people think of these characters going forward (first impressions are important)
3: What people can expect going forward (Especially with regards to the tone of the story)
So when you have a series with a character that needs help but is met with hostility and poor treatment at the start of the show, some people are going to stop there and just back out because they aren't interested in this. So i really don't think you can consider it disingenuous for people to stop watching if the show did not suit their likings.
Again i will emphasize that i specifically said i didn't drop the show so i find it a bit weird for you to say: "If you don't want to watch it so be it". I just didn't need that kind of negativity in my life at the time so i stopped and i just don't think you can consider that disingenuous. If someone stopped watching because of this, then i honestly think that's perfectly valid, because despite me planning to probably return to it eventually, it even months later still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
If the show somehow manages to redeem these characters in a satisfactory manner then colour me surprised. But until i actually finish it i will continue to doubt that the author will accomplish that considering just how far they went with the "Look at how extremely shitty these people are".
I love a well done redemption, i just don't think japan is particularly good at them. They tend to go too far with the shitty stuff and do too little to actually redeem the characters in my opinion. The few times it has been well done i've been pleasantly surprised.
I wrote that it'd be impossible to redeem the grandmother because explaining my thoughts in detail would take too long and i was in a hurry when i made my post, of course it's possible, i just don't consider it likely.
Edit: probably forgot some things i wanted to add to this but whatever, can't be bothered to review it.
Edit2: feel free to add me on discord if this is something you want to discuss further, don't feel like continuing this on a forum format.
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See I don't necessarily disagree with a lot what you saying on a vacuum. The issue I have is two fold.
1) I'm frustrated people(Not necessarily you) drop a good show due to not liking what a character does early on. Especially with how much seasonal trash people watch these days. So I may have popped off a little due to building up aggravation. Again didn't mean to single you out, sorry.
2) I don't think it's fair to judge or talk about a story without actually having finished it. All you talk about now is hypothetical. If once done you feel the same way then there's a discussion to be had about why you feel that way. Right now that isn't an option. Sure I think Japan has an issue of redemption, in fact I think that's a problem across Western media too where characters just kind of ignore the bad another did because of the good they did later. Redemption requires one to understand their wrongs and actively work on changing for the better. Redemption isn't necessarily the goal of growth either. Changing to be good in the future doesn't negate the bad you have done. This may be more religious of philosophical but I don't think changing for the good should ever be motivated for trying to negate past behaviour. That feels shallow to me. "Oh I did bad so I have to be good then all is forgiven". No you try to do good because doing good is better. Anyway that's a whole another can of worms that I'm not sure I have a firm enough grasp on my own opinion to discuss.
It's been awhile since I finished the show but I remember hating everything the grandmother stood for at the beginning and while I still disliked her at the end I definitely have the impression she did change. It doesn't excuse her actions, it doesn't redeem her of her past but it does create a compelling character. She's neither a good person or a bad person. Somewhere in the middle. The other characters have arcs too. Some are better than others but that's a story at the end of the day.
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I don't think hes judging, but I think its fine to talk about stories you haven't finished, if you give yourself the right context (such as here, where hes like "I've only watched X episodes, here is what I think thus far"). Isn't that what mots of this thread is about, anyway? Talking about stories that haven't finished?
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On April 06 2018 23:26 Unleashing wrote:
I began watching hanasaku iroha but the way MC was treated by most characters at the start made me stop watching, i didn't drop it but i had to stop watching because i was honestly just beginning to dislike most of the cast. I'll probably return to it eventually.
I don't believe that a person's actions can be excused by them being old, sure it might be the explanation, but MC was treated so poorly it left a very bad taste in my mouth.
You can write a character to be strict without them coming off as cold, heartless and frankly cruel. It just becomes offputting and frankly makes it impossible to ever make the grandmother a likable character.
It's not like i'm just gonna suddenly forget how she treated MC.
Dunno if I should spoiler this but I do for safety:
+ Show Spoiler +It's the typical "I only want your best, so being mean and strict is the best reason to achieve that"... The show obviously tries to make you like her by the end. Didn't entirely work on me. She wasn't as bad in the end but that didn't excuse her behavior before.
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Says to not judge stories you haven't finished but dismisses huge swath of shows he most definitely never finished or even tried as "seasonal trash" - Anime fan logic.
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Eromanga is the height of anime.
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On April 07 2018 01:09 Numy wrote:
Eromanga is the height of anime.
I unironically agree with this.
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I came into Hanasaku Iroha practically hyped up over Angel Beats, got wowed by the general animation quality with amazing attention to lighting and water visuals, but after two episodes, the characters just fell flat and their interactions unrealistic. Call it the 20 minute episode problem where characters abruptly end their conversations in confusion and it never really feels like they are people who have interactions that pass longer than their actual screen time. I had no real rapport with any of the characters and I'll call it a failure of story telling if there is just this amazing story behind the amazing visuals, but I just can't bear to watch any more episodes. Everything just seemed to happen in a vacuum. The world just felt dead. Compare and contrast with 3-gatsu no lion, where even from the get go, you get the feeling that even minor characters do interact with each other longer than the actual set screen time they all have.
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I come here in what has been forever and instead of LOGH remake or FMP hype i see a long hanasaku iroha discussion... get your priorities straight!
on topic hanasaku iroha was kinda nice, its a good mixup when you overload on the usual anime-crazyness.
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When does new FMP air?
LOGH right now is being more or less true to the original and the novels... Its odd the first episode was Reinhard's POV only, but I imagine maybe they'll just jump back and forth between Yang and Reinhard between episodes. The biggest thing will be getting used to the new designs and new voices.
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3-gatsu is one of the best shows I've ever seen. Honestly in contention for one of the best anime ever made, maybe even one of the best series ever made. The writing from the original manga must be amazing but the amount of care and thought the studio put into the adaption really shines through. Can't gush about it enough.
Started Violet Evergarden. Seems pretty standard story so far but it's rather beautiful and those kind of stories done well are very touching. So enjoying it so far.
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On April 06 2018 23:26 Unleashing wrote:
I began watching hanasaku iroha but the way MC was treated by most characters at the start made me stop watching, i didn't drop it but i had to stop watching because i was honestly just beginning to dislike most of the cast. I'll probably return to it eventually.
I don't believe that a person's actions can be excused by them being old, sure it might be the explanation, but MC was treated so poorly it left a very bad taste in my mouth.
You can write a character to be strict without them coming off as cold, heartless and frankly cruel. It just becomes offputting and frankly makes it impossible to ever make the grandmother a likable character.
It's not like i'm just gonna suddenly forget how she treated MC.
MC is treated like that by the grandma because that was how okada mari was treated by her mother as she grew up. They're on better terms now but yea it's basically her life dramatized.
Edit: scratch that, I'm not sure if they ever made up or I can't remember where I read that
This is very okada (from her autobiography)
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Whoever told her that is true, because Gundam IBO was god awful and she should be ashamed for writing a Gundam thats worse than Gundam SEED Destiny
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I'm at a bit of a loss when it comes to LOGH. I have watched the first episode of the remake and it reminded me of why exactly I dropped the original after just 2 episodes.
Everything about that first battle and the characters involved and the dialogue just feel absolutely wrong. Nothing makes any sense to me.
Just looking at the strategical element of that battle, it's a giant clusterfuck. Apparently one side can out-scan the other side, block their communication, fire from a greater distance, move significantly faster, win a 20k vs 12k battle within seconds and intercept their communication while the other side... just watches and dies? If this is a representation of the relative strengths of their technology and strategic understanding, why is there a 100+ episode series about their war against each other when it's so blatantly obvious how far ahead one side really is. I could go into much more detail as to how both sides went full retard with the "we will surround them" - "no, we will thwart their plans by attacking first" kind of nonsense.
Apparently spaceships behave like regular ships or cavalry and need to have a wide arc in order to turn around and face attacks from the rear instead of... you know, just turn around on the spot like you'd be able to in a spaceship thanks to thrusters?
The dialogue is as cliche as it can get. At least in the remake they did away with messenger boys running errands with handwritten stuff on a piece of paper as their main form of communication on a star-faring battleship. Still it feels incredibly stiff and I had the same feeling when I tried to watch the original a few years ago.
And this is just scratching the surface here. Almost every single scene was... simply not good. I had a hard time convincing myself that if the writers and directors did such a poor job with the opening of story, it would somehow transform into this perfect and epic space saga that rightfully deserves to be called one of the very best series ever made.
What am I missing here? What changes later down the line and how?
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I think the main thing you are missing is taste.
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On April 07 2018 03:44 Sentenal wrote:
I think the main thing you are missing is taste.
Well obviously...
But then again, in some parts of the world they have a taste for eating insects and other such things and calling it a delicacy. I'm missing taste for that as well... is this a similar case?
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It's mostly a political and philosophical show. The space battles are a bit thin but serve their purpose in mostly other ways. The opening is all about how politics and nepotism has stifled the ability to be effective. The reason one side hasn't just crushed the other is pretty apparent from the start, both are too busy fighting within themselves with petty conflicts to actually take over the other.
Unless I'm remembering more than there was at the start that should have all been evident?
edit: They do have an issue of space not exactly being 3D but you can just look past it since again the battle strategy stuff is not really there for the purpose of "look at this strategy". They offer insights into the characters while allowing them to showcase their abilities.
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The prequel movie also solidifies the fact that most of the battles are battles for the sake of battles
They fight so they can say they're fighting the enemy, not because they are even hoping to change the hundred year stalemate
Edit: I also feel like it's worth mentioning that the battle side of things is meant to be a bit old in style as it aims to mimic something closer to what you'd expect from early 1900s warfare (Part of why one side is basically prussia but in space)
You can consider that a flaw that it doesn't try to truly be futuristic about its space battles, but to me it was part of the charm
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/A0UtKyr.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Cj4ev1S_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
