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On July 07 2010 04:50 Lucumo wrote: So it is as I thought. Since I don't know the language, I can't really judge that. But, if they increase the usage of strange, unnatural words(which I recognize), I won't be happy about it.
If it's simply a matter of preference, why would people need to "judge the matter with a fair light"? Hm, this doesn't apply to me, right? After all, I'm fine with most of it.
If I said that I don't like kimchi because they are soggy and spicy when all the kimchi I have had is from some random American supermarket, I am sure some Koreans would try to dissuade me. Preference is fine, understanding followed by preference is optimal.
Japanese has had a ton of strange and unnatural words added into it in recent years, if not officially, then in conventional usage. Southlight just demonstrated exactly how flexible the language can be and how many options you have.
To be honest, I don't get your comparison. If I understand it correctly(ok, that doesn't matter), then I have to say that I never ate any kimchi. So, what I already said. The word "preference" doesn't apply to me. I simply don't like those words and the overusage of some is annoying. It's annoying because it either sounds bad(~nya) or they use it too much(believe it; dattebayo). You(guys) don't have to understand why I think that way, you wouldn't anyway. The usage of those endings and words in real life is/was an extra argument. It's something that bothers me in addition to that.
For me, if it's not officially, then I wouldn't use it. It doesn't matter if other people use these additions(ok, maybe it would disturb me). Here(where I live), few people shorten words in a bad way or use strange words and that really bothers me.
On July 07 2010 03:50 Ecael wrote: I don't know about what language you speak natively, but even in English, there are a lot of little things that marks a person distinct even if they are speaking correctly. For example, it is technically correct to use more passive sentence structures in English, but you are not encouraged to use it. Most native speakers would shy away from it. However, as it isn't my native language, I happily use passive structures. Technically speaking, I am right, but in terms of how I come across to people, it just feels slightly off. So put that into a language with a higher degree of freedom (someone give me alternative first person pronouns in English already) and we get a significant amount of possibilities even in everyday conversation, especially where rigid form is not demanded of you.
Why just technically? If people use an active sentence instead of a passive sentence, isn't that just plain wrong? Or do really have to freedom to choose(according to the rules)? Well, here, that's not the case. Articles like "the" or "a" are pure luxus. I always try to be as accurate as possible, so my native language is fine. Well, I do like the usage of little words which give me a backdoor. So if I don't want to commit myself to something, I don't have to.
Because it is a technicality, passive sentences are not wrong, they are just not encouraged. If I write entirely in passive sentence structure on my paper, my professor can't dock any points for the usage of passive sentences, I can only be docked for not varying my style more (realistically, I'll be docked a ton because that'll be a pain in the ass to read). As a part of common usage, active sentences are by far more popular and preferred because of its popularity. As far as the rules go, there aren't anything saying to go either way, though there is a slight preference for active sentences because it states something more directly and with greater force.
There is really no accuracy here, or rather, the accuracy that you are aiming for has a few possible distinct targets valued at more or less the same level.
Ah, ok. Then it's perfectly fine, isn't it? Doesn't matter if people don't like it as long as it's correct. Well, it's a small amount of freedom, but it is something. So why not use it?
But you can emphasize things to meet the accuracy, can't you?
On July 07 2010 05:01 Southlight wrote: No, groaning with u~ ugu~ and such is quite normal, because as I explained, they're derivatives of the basic "u~n/mu." It's the sort of thing that Japanese-speakers will simply accept as "oh there it is" and thus complaining about them as a foreign speaker and simply generalizing it as "zomg bad anime moe" is retarded.
Edit: By the way, there is always a basis. Lain, in SLE, was a very simple concept: a girl, who's unattached to the real world, discovers the the Wired, and trudges through it, going deeper and deeper into it.
I thought that it's different because you talked about other things in between. So I thought you and your friends use "u~, ugu~" while other people use the basic "u~n/mu". I didn't do that, I just said that I don't like it/it annoys me.
Hard to not make the connection when just a few pages ago we had the whole spar on mature characters and your preferences on characters lol
On July 07 2010 05:30 Southlight wrote: Now that Ecael fixed his post,
Yes, my beef here, as Ecael pointed out, is that
1) you come barging in disdaining everyone because you like "mature, quality" (yes, going together) anime/manga, which offended people (rightfully so, which is why you received harsh counterarguments pointing out your hypocrisy etc. etc.) 2) one of the prime examples you pointed out was the usage of various -endings and "onomatopoeia" without understanding the evolution/flexibility/etc. of the Japanese languages
I'm primarily attacking your disparaging of words and phrases considered very much normal in Japanese speech as "low moe anime" etc. etc. as per point 1). "Ugu~" in particular caught my eye because that's not even a speech-ender, it's a GROAN, and the fact that the character I think you're thinking of (I never watched the series, and I don't even remember where it's from, but I've had people point it out to me numerous times) groaned a lot of times doesn't mean it's any less a very natural usage of a normal word.
I didn't barge in(that would implicate that I've never written anything in this thread before, which I certainly did) and I didn't disdain anyone. What would you think if I said that I like a specific conecept...and so on. Would you understand what I like? Surely not. People understood me the right way and recommended me some anime. I said that, normally, shounen, moe and shoujo aren't mature(my specific concept which definitely isn't really off) because of characters/story/.... I'm still fine with that statement. Even the definitions of these genres support me. So why would anyone be offended by a statement saying that shounen(targeted audience is like 6-16 years) isn't mature(most of the times). Which hypocrisy? I already tried to explain my concept. Prime examples? It refers to moe only, which is just 1/3. I wrote: "One example regarding the "act according to the result": Some moe characters say something like "ugyuu~" or "nya~", which is just retarded. The creators make them say that, so that people think that they are cute or whatever. It's just one word, but that's the most obvious example. The other ones are sentences or complete dialogues." That's two endings, not "various".
On July 07 2010 04:50 Lucumo wrote: So it is as I thought. Since I don't know the language, I can't really judge that. But, if they increase the usage of strange, unnatural words(which I recognize), I won't be happy about it.
If it's simply a matter of preference, why would people need to "judge the matter with a fair light"? Hm, this doesn't apply to me, right? After all, I'm fine with most of it.
If I said that I don't like kimchi because they are soggy and spicy when all the kimchi I have had is from some random American supermarket, I am sure some Koreans would try to dissuade me. Preference is fine, understanding followed by preference is optimal.
Japanese has had a ton of strange and unnatural words added into it in recent years, if not officially, then in conventional usage. Southlight just demonstrated exactly how flexible the language can be and how many options you have.
To be honest, I don't get your comparison. If I understand it correctly(ok, that doesn't matter), then I have to say that I never ate any kimchi. So, what I already said. The word "preference" doesn't apply to me. I simply don't like those words and the overusage of some is annoying. It's annoying because it either sounds bad(~nya) or they use it too much(believe it; dattebayo). You(guys) don't have to understand why I think that way, you wouldn't anyway. The usage of those endings and words in real life is/was an extra argument. It's something that bothers me in addition to that.
For me, if it's not officially, then I wouldn't use it. It doesn't matter if other people use these additions(ok, maybe it would disturb me). Here(where I live), few people shorten words in a bad way or use strange words and that really bothers me.
My point there was simply that you don't know the full breadth of what Japanese (or kimchi, good stuff) has to offer, you simply made the assumption that some of these things you have heard are out of proper usage. They are not a part of the language officially, but they are far from improper. They aren't even at the level of slangs, but a natural twist on the way something can be said.
On July 07 2010 03:50 Ecael wrote: I don't know about what language you speak natively, but even in English, there are a lot of little things that marks a person distinct even if they are speaking correctly. For example, it is technically correct to use more passive sentence structures in English, but you are not encouraged to use it. Most native speakers would shy away from it. However, as it isn't my native language, I happily use passive structures. Technically speaking, I am right, but in terms of how I come across to people, it just feels slightly off. So put that into a language with a higher degree of freedom (someone give me alternative first person pronouns in English already) and we get a significant amount of possibilities even in everyday conversation, especially where rigid form is not demanded of you.
Why just technically? If people use an active sentence instead of a passive sentence, isn't that just plain wrong? Or do really have to freedom to choose(according to the rules)? Well, here, that's not the case. Articles like "the" or "a" are pure luxus. I always try to be as accurate as possible, so my native language is fine. Well, I do like the usage of little words which give me a backdoor. So if I don't want to commit myself to something, I don't have to.
Because it is a technicality, passive sentences are not wrong, they are just not encouraged. If I write entirely in passive sentence structure on my paper, my professor can't dock any points for the usage of passive sentences, I can only be docked for not varying my style more (realistically, I'll be docked a ton because that'll be a pain in the ass to read). As a part of common usage, active sentences are by far more popular and preferred because of its popularity. As far as the rules go, there aren't anything saying to go either way, though there is a slight preference for active sentences because it states something more directly and with greater force.
There is really no accuracy here, or rather, the accuracy that you are aiming for has a few possible distinct targets valued at more or less the same level.
Ah, ok. Then it's perfectly fine, isn't it? Doesn't matter if people don't like it as long as it's correct. Well, it's a small amount of freedom, but it is something. So why not use it?
But you can emphasize things to meet the accuracy, can't you?
Indeed, and I happily go around using passive sentence structures.
You can indeed improve the accuracy, but I am not sure what exactly you'll be improving there, these are targets that are valued the same (have the same meaning).
On July 07 2010 05:01 Southlight wrote: No, groaning with u~ ugu~ and such is quite normal, because as I explained, they're derivatives of the basic "u~n/mu." It's the sort of thing that Japanese-speakers will simply accept as "oh there it is" and thus complaining about them as a foreign speaker and simply generalizing it as "zomg bad anime moe" is retarded.
Edit: By the way, there is always a basis. Lain, in SLE, was a very simple concept: a girl, who's unattached to the real world, discovers the the Wired, and trudges through it, going deeper and deeper into it.
I thought that it's different because you talked about other things in between. So I thought you and your friends use "u~, ugu~" while other people use the basic "u~n/mu". I didn't do that, I just said that I don't like it/it annoys me.
Hard to not make the connection when just a few pages ago we had the whole spar on mature characters and your preferences on characters lol
On July 07 2010 05:30 Southlight wrote: Now that Ecael fixed his post,
Yes, my beef here, as Ecael pointed out, is that
1) you come barging in disdaining everyone because you like "mature, quality" (yes, going together) anime/manga, which offended people (rightfully so, which is why you received harsh counterarguments pointing out your hypocrisy etc. etc.) 2) one of the prime examples you pointed out was the usage of various -endings and "onomatopoeia" without understanding the evolution/flexibility/etc. of the Japanese languages
I'm primarily attacking your disparaging of words and phrases considered very much normal in Japanese speech as "low moe anime" etc. etc. as per point 1). "Ugu~" in particular caught my eye because that's not even a speech-ender, it's a GROAN, and the fact that the character I think you're thinking of (I never watched the series, and I don't even remember where it's from, but I've had people point it out to me numerous times) groaned a lot of times doesn't mean it's any less a very natural usage of a normal word.
Prime examples? It refers to moe only, which is just 1/3. I wrote: "One example regarding the "act according to the result": Some moe characters say something like "ugyuu~" or "nya~", which is just retarded. The creators make them say that, so that people think that they are cute or whatever. It's just one word, but that's the most obvious example. The other ones are sentences or complete dialogues." That's two endings, not "various".
So, I still don't understand why you are angry.
The way you phrased it ignored the linguistics behind it, also as the whole matter got on further, other endings got mixed in. Not entirely from you, but you didn't really try to keep it only to those two. As for those two, I think they have been sufficiently answered.
Another thing about the nya though, if it is a cat, it'll use it. If there is a talking rabbit, we'll see a ~pyon. Maybe we won't see it if the intention wasn't meant for them to be cute, but even then, we have a good chance of seeing those kinds of endings. They are as much a way of making something cute/moe as they are a way of telling us that a cat/rabbit is saying this sentence.
On July 07 2010 06:23 Shauni wrote: In any case it's quite hilarious that Lucomo argues this point so stubbornly since he rated Elfen Lied a 9 (only beaten by Code Geass!). Elfen Lied is even worse than Kanon Clannad Air when it comes to cute girls making cute sounds.
Ok, since somebody is sure to point it out... Yeah, the purpose of every show isn't to have believable characters to fit in the storyline. Slapstick comedies and such often neglect this willingly rather than do it half-assed. But I'm sure everyone is tired of the modern trend of anime making every protagonist the same in a story and then surround him with a few personalities which have nothing in common (so that at least one of them can 'fit' every viewer) and then just make the characters excessive and exaggerated so that there is no confusion about what 'type' the character really is.
I already stated why I rated Elfen Lied, Code Geass and Death Note that high...or did I state what doesn't matter in the case of Elfen Lied(like the character or nudity or the blood)?
Well, I so wish that was the case, but it isn't. People really like those anime and I don't understand why. So as long as they like them, there will be more of them. There was a discussion in another forum about this topic. It's pretty much the same with games. The producers/creators know that a specific amount of people will like their product and buy it. So the moneymaking is assured. If they would do something different, more complicated, there is always a chance that it becomes a flop. So, they simply aren't taking any risks.
On July 07 2010 05:29 Ecael wrote: In the name of expression, then, is art not a form of expression just as entertainment is? I choose the example pretty much just to show how something has been accepted by society in spite of it being completely out of colloquial usage in modern times. However, I feel like if we can complain about entertainment on a certain issue, we definitely can complain about art in the same issue. Shakespeare's works became art in our times, during his times though, what were they if not entertainment for the masses? There is definitely a quality about art, especially the classical kind, that allows it to be passed through history and still revered for what it is. That doesn't make it above criticism, it just makes criticism against it more context sensitive. Anyhow, that's more or less a digression.
I'd be more fine about this if there is more substantial ground for your points, but it pretty much just works out that it doesn't feel normal and thus you can't like it. "teh" and "I am disappoint" is indeed something I find hard to appreciate even if I tolerate them and sometimes get a laugh out of them. However, as Southlight has pointed out, this really isn't the situation we are seeing from your examples. They aren't so much some subculture derived from internet usage as they are an extension of the language itself in some method of usage. Not entirely conventional, but well within normal understanding that they are understood for an accent for a character.
About the last part with Western media, a shame, though I'd be amazed to find media anywhere that doesn't try to seize these little things in their works.
I don't think entertainment is a form of expression. They want to entertain us, not express themselves. Yeah, but I said it before. It's art and because it's art, people accept it(as art only). Example: Some artist draws a really bad picture of something but since it's art, people accept it. Hm, I think you could say that art is a medium to accept such things. Since we view it in a different way, it's impossible to reach an agreement. That's true. Back in the days, was there even a thing which became immediately art? But then again, you have to differ between painting/drawing/sculptures and literature. Nevertheless, I would still say that it becomes above criticism. This literature was written in a diferrent age and judging it by todays thinking, it seems wrong. I feel like that it wouldn't do justice to it.
Well, as I said, I don't care about groups. But other than that, there isn't really anything I can say. If you give me results, I can give reasons. That's why I picked those two examples. I can say that I don't like because it's not the correct spelling. If a group "invents" a new word for something(an action or whatever), I could say that I don't like it because it's unfitting and the word doesn't exist. If it would be accepted as an official word and added in dictionaries and so on, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think that's all the "substantial ground" I can give.
The former point is more or less a digression. I think we can just agree to disagree on that score.
I'd be fine with the whole acceptance as official word thing if Japanese isn't so malleable in that sense. The language is pretty lax about about both the creation of words and sounds, and a fair amount of those inevitably make its way to mainstream use. The thing with what Southlight is saying isn't so much like the two usages you have cited, but closer to the differences between Queen's English and American English. Different in spelling, but in function the same. There are differences in nuances here, but even that is a very subtle difference. That's why I am having such difficulty accepting your point of view on this particular matter - these words aren't in the dictionary, but they are far from wrong. It isn't even that they are not wrong in a subculture, but that the language as a whole can accommodate them.
Oh god. Where I live, it's pretty much the complete opposite. People really argued about the spelling of words and such. They reformed the spelling back in 1996 and then again in 2004 and again in 2006. The last two ones were pretty small. So, you see, it's something really important here. Maybe that explains why I think some things in a certain way. Good to know, such a comparison certainly makes the most sense. So, at the end of the day, it's unnecessary complicated? Ok, not really "unnecessary" since it's the price to pay for a freedom like that. The question is, is it worth it? For a native speaker...probably, but for a foreigner....I don't know. If I think about the time which is needed to learn all of this, probably not ^^
On July 07 2010 04:50 Lucumo wrote: So it is as I thought. Since I don't know the language, I can't really judge that. But, if they increase the usage of strange, unnatural words(which I recognize), I won't be happy about it.
If it's simply a matter of preference, why would people need to "judge the matter with a fair light"? Hm, this doesn't apply to me, right? After all, I'm fine with most of it.
If I said that I don't like kimchi because they are soggy and spicy when all the kimchi I have had is from some random American supermarket, I am sure some Koreans would try to dissuade me. Preference is fine, understanding followed by preference is optimal.
Japanese has had a ton of strange and unnatural words added into it in recent years, if not officially, then in conventional usage. Southlight just demonstrated exactly how flexible the language can be and how many options you have.
To be honest, I don't get your comparison. If I understand it correctly(ok, that doesn't matter), then I have to say that I never ate any kimchi. So, what I already said. The word "preference" doesn't apply to me. I simply don't like those words and the overusage of some is annoying. It's annoying because it either sounds bad(~nya) or they use it too much(believe it; dattebayo). You(guys) don't have to understand why I think that way, you wouldn't anyway. The usage of those endings and words in real life is/was an extra argument. It's something that bothers me in addition to that.
For me, if it's not officially, then I wouldn't use it. It doesn't matter if other people use these additions(ok, maybe it would disturb me). Here(where I live), few people shorten words in a bad way or use strange words and that really bothers me.
My point there was simply that you don't know the full breadth of what Japanese (or kimchi, good stuff) has to offer, you simply made the assumption that some of these things you have heard are out of proper usage. They are not a part of the language officially, but they are far from improper. They aren't even at the level of slangs, but a natural twist on the way something can be said.
Hm, you are right. I based my assumptions on everything I heard so far. Not once did someone say something like this in real life or tv. And since "ugu~" and "nya~" sound ridiculous, I came to this (false) conclusion. But then again, I was somehow right since it's not official. And for me, the proper usage is always the official one. Too bad, that Japanese people don't think that way(that foiled everything). Hm, so I partly understand why Southlight is angry. But I think think this is a very special case and certainly abnormal(for me).
On July 07 2010 03:50 Ecael wrote: I don't know about what language you speak natively, but even in English, there are a lot of little things that marks a person distinct even if they are speaking correctly. For example, it is technically correct to use more passive sentence structures in English, but you are not encouraged to use it. Most native speakers would shy away from it. However, as it isn't my native language, I happily use passive structures. Technically speaking, I am right, but in terms of how I come across to people, it just feels slightly off. So put that into a language with a higher degree of freedom (someone give me alternative first person pronouns in English already) and we get a significant amount of possibilities even in everyday conversation, especially where rigid form is not demanded of you.
Why just technically? If people use an active sentence instead of a passive sentence, isn't that just plain wrong? Or do really have to freedom to choose(according to the rules)? Well, here, that's not the case. Articles like "the" or "a" are pure luxus. I always try to be as accurate as possible, so my native language is fine. Well, I do like the usage of little words which give me a backdoor. So if I don't want to commit myself to something, I don't have to.
Because it is a technicality, passive sentences are not wrong, they are just not encouraged. If I write entirely in passive sentence structure on my paper, my professor can't dock any points for the usage of passive sentences, I can only be docked for not varying my style more (realistically, I'll be docked a ton because that'll be a pain in the ass to read). As a part of common usage, active sentences are by far more popular and preferred because of its popularity. As far as the rules go, there aren't anything saying to go either way, though there is a slight preference for active sentences because it states something more directly and with greater force.
There is really no accuracy here, or rather, the accuracy that you are aiming for has a few possible distinct targets valued at more or less the same level.
Ah, ok. Then it's perfectly fine, isn't it? Doesn't matter if people don't like it as long as it's correct. Well, it's a small amount of freedom, but it is something. So why not use it?
But you can emphasize things to meet the accuracy, can't you?
On July 07 2010 08:15 Ecael wrote: Indeed, and I happily go around using passive sentence structures.
You can indeed improve the accuracy, but I am not sure what exactly you'll be improving there, these are targets that are valued the same (have the same meaning).
I made the experience that some people don't understand what you want(simply because they are too young and/or don't have enough experience). Since it's the internet and there a lot of young people here, I always try to be as accurate as possible and I on the other side, I prefer really accurate things as well. This way, I won't misunderstand them. Some people write in a simple way which leaves room for interpretation, other people write in a complicated way which gives less room for that. So, I try to minimize the room for interpretation and try to maximize the comprehensibility. That's the "improvement" if you want to call it that way.
On July 07 2010 05:01 Southlight wrote: No, groaning with u~ ugu~ and such is quite normal, because as I explained, they're derivatives of the basic "u~n/mu." It's the sort of thing that Japanese-speakers will simply accept as "oh there it is" and thus complaining about them as a foreign speaker and simply generalizing it as "zomg bad anime moe" is retarded.
Edit: By the way, there is always a basis. Lain, in SLE, was a very simple concept: a girl, who's unattached to the real world, discovers the the Wired, and trudges through it, going deeper and deeper into it.
I thought that it's different because you talked about other things in between. So I thought you and your friends use "u~, ugu~" while other people use the basic "u~n/mu". I didn't do that, I just said that I don't like it/it annoys me.
Hard to not make the connection when just a few pages ago we had the whole spar on mature characters and your preferences on characters lol
On July 07 2010 05:30 Southlight wrote: Now that Ecael fixed his post,
Yes, my beef here, as Ecael pointed out, is that
1) you come barging in disdaining everyone because you like "mature, quality" (yes, going together) anime/manga, which offended people (rightfully so, which is why you received harsh counterarguments pointing out your hypocrisy etc. etc.) 2) one of the prime examples you pointed out was the usage of various -endings and "onomatopoeia" without understanding the evolution/flexibility/etc. of the Japanese languages
I'm primarily attacking your disparaging of words and phrases considered very much normal in Japanese speech as "low moe anime" etc. etc. as per point 1). "Ugu~" in particular caught my eye because that's not even a speech-ender, it's a GROAN, and the fact that the character I think you're thinking of (I never watched the series, and I don't even remember where it's from, but I've had people point it out to me numerous times) groaned a lot of times doesn't mean it's any less a very natural usage of a normal word.
Prime examples? It refers to moe only, which is just 1/3. I wrote: "One example regarding the "act according to the result": Some moe characters say something like "ugyuu~" or "nya~", which is just retarded. The creators make them say that, so that people think that they are cute or whatever. It's just one word, but that's the most obvious example. The other ones are sentences or complete dialogues." That's two endings, not "various".
So, I still don't understand why you are angry.
On July 07 2010 08:15 Ecael wrote: The way you phrased it ignored the linguistics behind it, also as the whole matter got on further, other endings got mixed in. Not entirely from you, but you didn't really try to keep it only to those two. As for those two, I think they have been sufficiently answered.
Another thing about the nya though, if it is a cat, it'll use it. If there is a talking rabbit, we'll see a ~pyon. Maybe we won't see it if the intention wasn't meant for them to be cute, but even then, we have a good chance of seeing those kinds of endings. They are as much a way of making something cute/moe as they are a way of telling us that a cat/rabbit is saying this sentence.
Hm, I thought I did it with this(page 349): "Yes, I know that....but they don't say things like that in real life(-nya~/-ugyuu~)". Even though they use the latter, it didn't change. Later, I included "dattebayo". But you are right, I should have explicitly denied everything else(I did, but probably too late).
I probably heard "~pyon" quite some time ago. Do you think so? To me, rabbits/cats are all about the appearance and not about the way they speak. But then again, it's probably the culture difference. Hm....it still baffles me why they would use such a thing even though you can clearly see that it is supposed to be a rabbit/cat. It's unnecessary which makes it illogical.
On July 07 2010 08:14 triangle wrote: Sidestepping the current discussion entirely, did someone seriously post a lain amv that wasn't this one? + Show Spoiler +
I didn't find it when I was looking for Lain AMVs. It's certainly good, but it's also something I wouldn't watch more than once every two months. This way, it will keep its originality for quite some time.
On July 07 2010 08:32 Tenryu wrote: So much reading on this thread now, i give up.
Well, at least it makes/made the thread way more active+I learned quite a lot of things.
On July 07 2010 09:25 eMbrace wrote: is Black Lagoon a good series? Or is it one of those shows that tries too hard to make an image of itself?
It's a gun action series that delves into the psychology of a "normal" man turned to the underworld. I love it, personally, and it's a show I recommend to anyone who likes, as the person above said, rah-rah action with a slice of philosophy.
OMG I love Sayuri. One of the most underrated side-characters I've ever seen.
I thought Black Lagoon was ok but not great... depends on what you're looking for. It's proud to be nothing more than a stupid action show. Second season is marred somewhat by heinous, mood-breaking engrish.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/9531/1asd.png)
