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mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
On January 28 2010 10:15 triangle wrote:Show nested quote +
Because it's like any other romantic comedy show with a tsundere female lead?
Which basically adds it to my auto "do not watch" list. Tsuderes are so freaking annoying 
I initially took up Toradora because I had already read the first few chapters of the manga which had left me with the impression that the male lead was not a spineless sack of indecisive shit, like in most romantic comedies. I was actually looking forward to the anime because of the same reason. I ended up not continuing the manga (which was unfortunate, since if I continued reading it I would've known to not even bother with the anime), and when the anime aired I was enjoying it until I realized that the male lead was still a spineless sack of indecisive shit. Except he looked "angry" so people didn't think he was.
So dumb >:[
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On January 27 2010 21:20 d3_crescentia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2010 11:27 Mystlord wrote:On January 27 2010 09:50 PH wrote:
There need to be more shows like Nodamae Cantabile and Honey + Clover... ):
EDIT
By that I mean non-shit, more mature slice of life. I concur. No more teenage slice of lifes. That's been overplayed. I remember seeing something about the collapse of the anime industry in Japan. Well not collapse, but it referenced the low number of new series coming out lately. It was especially pointing at the decrease in those teenage slice of lifes or shows like that :3. I wish I could find the article again. That's an exaggeration IMO - they said it back in 1996 before Eva came out, and they've been saying it for every single year since then. The industry waxes and wanes, but I have a feeling it's going to be around for a while as long as Japanese hikkikomori man-children continue to exist. That being said, I do think most of the shows today are derivative pieces of shit. The archetypes have been established and abused, and the stories feel predictable. What the industry really needs better writing, and I do think they recognize that, since there's been an obvious growing trend towards animating light-novels, but in the end it should be up to the companies themselves to break away from the overused character archetypes and recycled plots to produce something more interesting. There have been instances in recent memory where I feel that original works have done one or the other rather well, but never both - they always overshoot or undershoot the mark. I liked Higashi no Eden for this very reason, though I feel that in the end the plot started to fall apart. Of course if it's too far out there the fanbase will turn their noses and sales will drop, but in the long run I think it'd be better for the industry to start to try something different if it wants to grab a larger fanbase. Of course, they could be content to sit around and market the same EVA models to the same people for the next ten years, but I would be sorely disappointed.
At the very least the observation is relevant. I feel like I misread the article in that regard, so I'll have to dig it up again.
In any case, I completely agree with what you're saying. Good plot and characters need to be reintroduced again.
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On January 28 2010 14:55 mrmin123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 10:15 triangle wrote:
Because it's like any other romantic comedy show with a tsundere female lead?
Which basically adds it to my auto "do not watch" list. Tsuderes are so freaking annoying I initially took up Toradora because I had already read the first few chapters of the manga which had left me with the impression that the male lead was not a spineless sack of indecisive shit, like in most romantic comedies. I was actually looking forward to the anime because of the same reason. I ended up not continuing the manga (which was unfortunate, since if I continued reading it I would've known to not even bother with the anime), and when the anime aired I was enjoying it until I realized that the male lead was still a spineless sack of indecisive shit. Except he looked "angry" so people didn't think he was. So dumb >:[
Ryuuji isn't really indecisive. He started out in love with Minorin but the more he got to knew her he realized that she wasn't right for him and that he was meant to be for Taiga.
I liked Ryuuji as a protagonist.
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On January 28 2010 14:58 Mystlord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2010 21:20 d3_crescentia wrote:On January 27 2010 11:27 Mystlord wrote:On January 27 2010 09:50 PH wrote:
There need to be more shows like Nodamae Cantabile and Honey + Clover... ):
EDIT
By that I mean non-shit, more mature slice of life. I concur. No more teenage slice of lifes. That's been overplayed. I remember seeing something about the collapse of the anime industry in Japan. Well not collapse, but it referenced the low number of new series coming out lately. It was especially pointing at the decrease in those teenage slice of lifes or shows like that :3. I wish I could find the article again. That's an exaggeration IMO - they said it back in 1996 before Eva came out, and they've been saying it for every single year since then. The industry waxes and wanes, but I have a feeling it's going to be around for a while as long as Japanese hikkikomori man-children continue to exist. That being said, I do think most of the shows today are derivative pieces of shit. The archetypes have been established and abused, and the stories feel predictable. What the industry really needs better writing, and I do think they recognize that, since there's been an obvious growing trend towards animating light-novels, but in the end it should be up to the companies themselves to break away from the overused character archetypes and recycled plots to produce something more interesting. There have been instances in recent memory where I feel that original works have done one or the other rather well, but never both - they always overshoot or undershoot the mark. I liked Higashi no Eden for this very reason, though I feel that in the end the plot started to fall apart. Of course if it's too far out there the fanbase will turn their noses and sales will drop, but in the long run I think it'd be better for the industry to start to try something different if it wants to grab a larger fanbase. Of course, they could be content to sit around and market the same EVA models to the same people for the next ten years, but I would be sorely disappointed. At the very least the observation is relevant. I feel like I misread the article in that regard, so I'll have to dig it up again. In any case, I completely agree with what you're saying. Good plot and characters need to be reintroduced again.
Who is the judge and why? What he is saying isn't regarding 'good' character and plot, but originality, there is a huge difference between the two. While he did touch on overuse of certain archetype and plot, like I said in the previous page, given a wide enough perspective and a good amount of precedence, everything can more or less be placed into rough categories.
Originality is certainly something to be praised, but it doesn't automatically indicate the goodness of something. Originality in plot devices and storytelling can compensate for an overall weak plot, but a well done story with very traditional methods shouldn't really be penalized because it doesn't take on different styles.
So with that out of the way, what defines good plot and characters? Public consensus? View of industry veterans? Or your own preferences? It is easy to say that they should focus on the good stuff, but what weight does that statement have?
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On January 28 2010 15:23 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 14:55 mrmin123 wrote:On January 28 2010 10:15 triangle wrote:
Because it's like any other romantic comedy show with a tsundere female lead?
Which basically adds it to my auto "do not watch" list. Tsuderes are so freaking annoying I initially took up Toradora because I had already read the first few chapters of the manga which had left me with the impression that the male lead was not a spineless sack of indecisive shit, like in most romantic comedies. I was actually looking forward to the anime because of the same reason. I ended up not continuing the manga (which was unfortunate, since if I continued reading it I would've known to not even bother with the anime), and when the anime aired I was enjoying it until I realized that the male lead was still a spineless sack of indecisive shit. Except he looked "angry" so people didn't think he was. So dumb >:[ Ryuuji isn't really indecisive. He started out in love with Minorin but the more he got to knew her he realized that she wasn't right for him and that he was meant to be for Taiga. I liked Ryuuji as a protagonist.
He didn't really realize anything until Ami and Minorin told him to realize it -_-
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On January 28 2010 15:29 FragKrag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 15:23 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 28 2010 14:55 mrmin123 wrote:On January 28 2010 10:15 triangle wrote:
Because it's like any other romantic comedy show with a tsundere female lead?
Which basically adds it to my auto "do not watch" list. Tsuderes are so freaking annoying I initially took up Toradora because I had already read the first few chapters of the manga which had left me with the impression that the male lead was not a spineless sack of indecisive shit, like in most romantic comedies. I was actually looking forward to the anime because of the same reason. I ended up not continuing the manga (which was unfortunate, since if I continued reading it I would've known to not even bother with the anime), and when the anime aired I was enjoying it until I realized that the male lead was still a spineless sack of indecisive shit. Except he looked "angry" so people didn't think he was. So dumb >:[ Ryuuji isn't really indecisive. He started out in love with Minorin but the more he got to knew her he realized that she wasn't right for him and that he was meant to be for Taiga. I liked Ryuuji as a protagonist. He didn't really realize anything until Ami and Minorin told him to realize it -_-
I disagree. He became less interested in Minorin as time went on. He couldn't relate to her and she basically told him on several occasions that she isn't looking for a relationship with anyone.
I think by the time of the Christmas arc he started to realize that he had feelings for Taiga but didn't want to pursue her since he was sure she liked Kitamura.
Like I said, Toradora is by no means a perfect romance series. It is badly paced near the end and they should have done more to show the transition, from Ryuji's perspective, from loving Minorin to loving Taiga. I think it was incredibly obvious around the christmas arc that Taiga was in love with Ryuji.
I'm assuming that Taiga also continued pursuing Kitamura because she figured Ryuji only loved Minorin and that settling for him is the best choice. That isn't necessarily irrational, a lot of people do that sort of thing, I've done that sort of thing.
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When they fit a 10 vol light novel into 25 episodes, that is what happens.
Am I the only person who thinks the anime would've been infinitely better off using Ami?
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On January 28 2010 15:37 Ecael wrote:
When they fit a 10 vol light novel into 25 episodes, that is what happens.
Am I the only person who thinks the anime would've been infinitely better off using Ami?
No, Ami was an awful bitch.
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In the beginning yeah, but she was probably the most important character after Ryuji in the series.
I don't think he became any less interested in Minorin at all until after the skiing, and that was just because of what Taiga said.
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On January 28 2010 15:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 15:37 Ecael wrote:
When they fit a 10 vol light novel into 25 episodes, that is what happens.
Am I the only person who thinks the anime would've been infinitely better off using Ami? No, Ami was an awful bitch.
and Taiga your standard tsundere in every sense, a bitch would at least be more unpredictable and interesting.
These days I see Kugimiya and just pray she isn't doing the main female, having half of what the character would do telegraphed to me by the seiyuu choice makes things quite boring.
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I disagree. I feel his interest started to wane around the time of the vacation at Ami's summer house.
But, the anime did a poor job of portraying how each character felt. Then in the last 3 episodes it was like LOL TAIGA AND RYUJI WERE IN LOVE THIS WHOOOOLE TIME. That kinda pissed me off. In hindsight, I have an idea of when feelings started to change, but it was poor pacing, no doubt about it. I still love it, even though it's pretty hugely flawed.
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I disliked Toradora because I had already seen it twice, when it was called Shakugan no Shana and Zero no Tsukaima.
I've had my recommended allotment of Rie Kugimiya for the next decade or so, thanks.
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On January 28 2010 15:43 Ecael wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 15:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 28 2010 15:37 Ecael wrote:
When they fit a 10 vol light novel into 25 episodes, that is what happens.
Am I the only person who thinks the anime would've been infinitely better off using Ami? No, Ami was an awful bitch. and Taiga your standard tsundere in every sense, a bitch would at least be more unpredictable and interesting. These days I see Kugimiya and just pray she isn't doing the main female, having half of what the character would do telegraphed to me by the seiyuu choice makes things quite boring.
I love Taiga. I don't mind the tsundere female lead.
I hate the airheaded innocent pure girl who is just so cute and oblivious. Like Hitomi in Baka to Test or Miyuki in Lucky Star. The only character of that archetype who I like is Kuronuma Sawako, but Kuronuma Sawako could be a nazi and I'd still love her.
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mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
Ryuuji's personality was a few steps in the right direction compared to the typical romantic comedy character, but I felt it still wasn't far enough.
Yea, he grew a spine eventually and managed to confess to Minorin (and even got shot down lolsurprise), but he was bumbling around the issue for the longest time.
Yea, he wasn't indecisive in the sense that he knew he liked Minorin but slowly got to know her and realized that they weren't right for each other. That's a logical and sensible progression that I can respect from the protagonist of a genre that's known for their indecisive and confused leads. That said the way he handled his relationships with Minorin/Taiga/Ami was downright stupid at times. Misconceptions in romantic comedies are the norm and they always look stupid to the viewer since the viewer knows all sides of the story, but I remember Toradora had a few that left me facepalming.
I probably shouldn't be watching romantic comedies if I don't like characters like these, but I was drawn into Toradora by the hope of a male lead that broke through the set archtypes with an iron fist only to be disappointed, so I'm going to rant regardless.
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Oh well.
Moe is going to kill the industry anyway lol
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Moe is like all the generic shitty FPS games coming out with bald grimdark space marines. they're easy as fuck to make, all have the same plot, and they sell like hotcakes
studios that make original and compelling shows won't be able to compete with studios that churn out K-On Clone 47 and they will go under
I hope something happens that saves anime from the fate that gaming has come across
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mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
When Haruhi came out I thought it was going to revitalize anime.
Then it somehow led to Lucky Star. Which led to
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There is a Hitomi in Baka test? News to me. You mean Himeji? Thought her true nature is kind of apparent already, she is no Miyuki.
Airheads can be random enough to be somewhat less predictable than tsundere.
Moe is like all the generic shitty FPS games coming out with bald grimdark space marines. they're easy as fuck to make, all have the same plot, and they sell like hotcakes
That's why Nisioisin's works (Bakemonogatari, katanagatari) sell...better?
On January 28 2010 15:46 Hinanawi wrote:
I disliked Toradora because I had already seen it twice, when it was called Shakugan no Shana and Zero no Tsukaima.
I've had my recommended allotment of Rie Kugimiya for the next decade or so, thanks.
Yeah...seriously. Zero no Tsukaima has finally taken to inserting something borderline sex scene though, would be hilarious if they ever air up to that.
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On January 28 2010 15:59 Ecael wrote:There is a Hitomi in Baka test? News to me. You mean Himeji? Thought her true nature is kind of apparent already, she is no Miyuki. Airheads can be random enough to be somewhat less predictable than tsundere. Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 15:46 Hinanawi wrote:
I disliked Toradora because I had already seen it twice, when it was called Shakugan no Shana and Zero no Tsukaima.
I've had my recommended allotment of Rie Kugimiya for the next decade or so, thanks. Yeah...seriously. Zero no Tsukaima has finally taken to inserting something borderline sex scene though, would be hilarious if they ever air up to that.
hurrrr yes i meant himeji
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On January 28 2010 02:04 Ecael wrote:
No, they will air once per month for a whole year, following the original release of the light novels.
:O
one whole damn year to finish it? wth??? its like one episode every fortnight! bah... guess i look too much into it : /
On January 28 2010 15:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Moe is like all the generic shitty FPS games coming out with bald grimdark space marines. they're easy as fuck to make, all have the same plot, and they sell like hotcakes
studios that make original and compelling shows won't be able to compete with studios that churn out K-On Clone 47 and they will go under
I hope something happens that saves anime from the fate that gaming has come across
well, the studios makes what the viewer demands, and the general culture of the majority viewers(which sometimes is due to overly successful PR and marketing). if there is any one to blame for lack of creativity and originality its the masses of whacked moe blob addicts...
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EPT
