On May 19 2013 07:19 jmack wrote: That moment when Jamie jumps in the bear pit.
Chills in all of my body.
This season has been unreal.
Im not sure how I went from hating Jamie to cheering for Jamie.... I think thats a testament to the writers.
Personally, I think the way they're writing the character is a bit cheap. This is the guy who pushed a kid to his (supposed) death without giving it a second thought and coldly killed one of his cousins just to get a small shot at escaping captivity. Now, he's so compassionate he's willing to put his life in danger just to have a shot at saving someone whose only reason for taking somewhat care of him was that she was given an order to deliver him in one piece somewhere. I'm certainly not opposed to a transition in character, but here we've gone from one extreme to the other.
Not necessarily. I wish I can link the interview with the actor who plays Jamie (I'm unable to find it), but he puts it perfectly. With the character Jamie, your introduced to him the moment he does a reprehensible act. You as, a viewer or reader, are instantly turned off by his character and want nothing more than to see him axed. Now, we're just introduced to the other side of the coin. That Jamie isn't the one-dimensional character we've all seen in various shows.
What this season does for Jamie is show all the reasoning behind his actions. Why did he pushed Bran out the window... He genuinely loves Cersei (recall the scene with Bolton describing the Battle of Blackwater) and acted impulsely, either let Bran go and probably die or kill him. Why everyone derisively calls him Kingslayer... he was sorta forced to choose between to bad choices.
In other words, had the show began right when Kings Landing is getting sacked and Jamie has to choose between killing the king or millions of innocents, can you honestly say your opinion of him would remain the same?
I never had much of a problem with Jamie killing the Mad King - that action had nothing to do with how I felt with regards to his character. Him killing (he thought) Bran and him killing his cousin to get a shot at escaping were two clear examples of his extremely high disregard for others when his immediate interests were at play. Again, we went from someone who acted to murder a kid so casually you'd think it was part of his daily wake-up routine to someone willing to put his life in jeopardy without thinking for a person who was essentially ordered to deliver him somewhere. I am appreciating the transition and the nuance it brings to the character, but I felt that "jumping in the bear arena" episode was a little over-the-top (and cliché).
But I mean, it's still in line with his character wouldn't you say? In all instances (Mad King, Bran, killing Ned's men outside the brothel, jumping the bear pit), he doesn't seem to give much thought to the consequences. It's only with the latter in saving Brienne is he seen as "heroic," but in every situation he's action on self-interest/those he cares about.
That's the point of his character. He's grey, he's human, he can be arrogant, selfish and basically criminal but isn't a heartless sociopath. Brienned earned his respect and friendship and so he risked his life for her.
That doesn't undo his past actions, but those also don't take away the bravery and honor of saving Brienne.
Yes. That's my point -.-. He's not undergoing some huge character flip, we're just seeing all sides of him, right or wrong.
On May 19 2013 07:19 jmack wrote: That moment when Jamie jumps in the bear pit.
Chills in all of my body.
This season has been unreal.
Im not sure how I went from hating Jamie to cheering for Jamie.... I think thats a testament to the writers.
Personally, I think the way they're writing the character is a bit cheap. This is the guy who pushed a kid to his (supposed) death without giving it a second thought and coldly killed one of his cousins just to get a small shot at escaping captivity. Now, he's so compassionate he's willing to put his life in danger just to have a shot at saving someone whose only reason for taking somewhat care of him was that she was given an order to deliver him in one piece somewhere. I'm certainly not opposed to a transition in character, but here we've gone from one extreme to the other.
Not necessarily. I wish I can link the interview with the actor who plays Jamie (I'm unable to find it), but he puts it perfectly. With the character Jamie, your introduced to him the moment he does a reprehensible act. You as, a viewer or reader, are instantly turned off by his character and want nothing more than to see him axed. Now, we're just introduced to the other side of the coin. That Jamie isn't the one-dimensional character we've all seen in various shows.
What this season does for Jamie is show all the reasoning behind his actions. Why did he pushed Bran out the window... He genuinely loves Cersei (recall the scene with Bolton describing the Battle of Blackwater) and acted impulsely, either let Bran go and probably die or kill him. Why everyone derisively calls him Kingslayer... he was sorta forced to choose between to bad choices.
In other words, had the show began right when Kings Landing is getting sacked and Jamie has to choose between killing the king or millions of innocents, can you honestly say your opinion of him would remain the same?
I never had much of a problem with Jamie killing the Mad King - that action had nothing to do with how I felt with regards to his character. Him killing (he thought) Bran and him killing his cousin to get a shot at escaping were two clear examples of his extremely high disregard for others when his immediate interests were at play. Again, we went from someone who acted to murder a kid so casually you'd think it was part of his daily wake-up routine to someone willing to put his life in jeopardy without thinking for a person who was essentially ordered to deliver him somewhere. I am appreciating the transition and the nuance it brings to the character, but I felt that "jumping in the bear arena" episode was a little over-the-top (and cliché).
But I mean, it's still in line with his character wouldn't you say? In all instances (Mad King, Bran, killing Ned's men outside the brothel, jumping the bear pit), he doesn't seem to give much thought to the consequences. It's only with the latter in saving Brienne is he seen as "heroic," but in every situation he's action on self-interest/those he cares about.
That's the point of his character. He's grey, he's human, he can be arrogant, selfish and basically criminal but isn't a heartless sociopath. Brienned earned his respect and friendship and so he risked his life for her.
That doesn't undo his past actions, but those also don't take away the bravery and honor of saving Brienne.
This.
That's the point of this character and many other characters in GoT. They're like regular people. There are no righteous good guys and evil bad guys with few exception. They're just people. People who do terrible things and people who do amazing things. Hell, an argument can even be made that Joffrey isn't necessarily a bad person. He's been fucked up his entire life and never really had a true father figure and probably has some mental issues considering he's the product of incest. Compound teenage years, mental illness, no father figure and a spice of unchecked power and you got a recipe of clear destruction, one I don't think you could reasonably "blame" on him.
Like has been said many times before -- we walked in on Jaime in the worst part of his life when he knocked Brann off that tower. Imagine if you loved someone more than anything in the world, just the most irrational and true love on Earth and if literally anyone knew both of you would probably be either killed or completely defame your families name for generations. Would you not, in a panicked moment, perhaps do something that Jaime did? I don't think I could say I wouldn't. None of us have fortunately have been in such a situation but I don't think it's too far stretched for an otherwise pretty moral person doing something completely evil like that when he has nothing but adrenaline and fear pumping through him.
I don't know if we're watching the same show, but there was not an ounce of panic in Jamie's body when he pushed Brann to his supposed death. In fact, after grabbing Brann, he almost immediately looked down to assess whether the kid would die if he fell down the tower. After (wrongly) determining he would, he started smiling, jokingly said "quite the little climber, aren't you?", then ended with a humorous "the things I do for love..." and casually pushed Brann to his death without even looking at him. That was nothing but a cold self-preservation calculation - the fact that a kid had to die meant absolutely nothing to him compared to the fact that he deemed it necessary for his own sake. The exact same applies to him coldly murdering his own cousin to get a shot at escaping from the Stark prison camp.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that the characters aren't simply black or white, and I again welcome the change we're seeing in Jamie's character (or, if you want, the nuance we're being shown). All I'm saying is that having Jamie completely disregard his own safety and jump in an arena with no weapon in front of a frigging bear to save not Cersei but Brienne is so far out on the other end of the spectrum - in terms of both empathy for his fellow human and reasoning for action - that it was just too much, while everything until that scene was great and believable.
On May 19 2013 07:19 jmack wrote: That moment when Jamie jumps in the bear pit.
Chills in all of my body.
This season has been unreal.
Im not sure how I went from hating Jamie to cheering for Jamie.... I think thats a testament to the writers.
Personally, I think the way they're writing the character is a bit cheap. This is the guy who pushed a kid to his (supposed) death without giving it a second thought and coldly killed one of his cousins just to get a small shot at escaping captivity. Now, he's so compassionate he's willing to put his life in danger just to have a shot at saving someone whose only reason for taking somewhat care of him was that she was given an order to deliver him in one piece somewhere. I'm certainly not opposed to a transition in character, but here we've gone from one extreme to the other.
Not necessarily. I wish I can link the interview with the actor who plays Jamie (I'm unable to find it), but he puts it perfectly. With the character Jamie, your introduced to him the moment he does a reprehensible act. You as, a viewer or reader, are instantly turned off by his character and want nothing more than to see him axed. Now, we're just introduced to the other side of the coin. That Jamie isn't the one-dimensional character we've all seen in various shows.
What this season does for Jamie is show all the reasoning behind his actions. Why did he pushed Bran out the window... He genuinely loves Cersei (recall the scene with Bolton describing the Battle of Blackwater) and acted impulsely, either let Bran go and probably die or kill him. Why everyone derisively calls him Kingslayer... he was sorta forced to choose between to bad choices.
In other words, had the show began right when Kings Landing is getting sacked and Jamie has to choose between killing the king or millions of innocents, can you honestly say your opinion of him would remain the same?
I never had much of a problem with Jamie killing the Mad King - that action had nothing to do with how I felt with regards to his character. Him killing (he thought) Bran and him killing his cousin to get a shot at escaping were two clear examples of his extremely high disregard for others when his immediate interests were at play. Again, we went from someone who acted to murder a kid so casually you'd think it was part of his daily wake-up routine to someone willing to put his life in jeopardy without thinking for a person who was essentially ordered to deliver him somewhere. I am appreciating the transition and the nuance it brings to the character, but I felt that "jumping in the bear arena" episode was a little over-the-top (and cliché).
But I mean, it's still in line with his character wouldn't you say? In all instances (Mad King, Bran, killing Ned's men outside the brothel, jumping the bear pit), he doesn't seem to give much thought to the consequences. It's only with the latter in saving Brienne is he seen as "heroic," but in every situation he's action on self-interest/those he cares about.
That's the point of his character. He's grey, he's human, he can be arrogant, selfish and basically criminal but isn't a heartless sociopath. Brienned earned his respect and friendship and so he risked his life for her.
That doesn't undo his past actions, but those also don't take away the bravery and honor of saving Brienne.
Yes. That's my point -.-. He's not undergoing some huge character flip, we're just seeing all sides of him, right or wrong.
Or there's another way to look at it.
He wasn't a heartless dick initially. He was proud and happy to be a member of the King's Guard. He took his oath seriously enough to warn the Mad King of his father's intentions.
But the Mad King, being mad and all - made a mockery of his oaths as an anointed Knight who also swore to protect the innocent, etc. He had to stand-by watch people set ablaze, choked etc. He finally chose the vows he felt was the best for the kingdom, ie. protect the innocent residents of King's Landing from the Mad King's fire.
And yet, he was scorned for it. Probably turned him bitter inside, though he hid it behind a smile. Couldn't hide it perfectly, and so the smile comes off an being arrogant. By the time he was in Winterfell, he was jaded to the core, and couldn't care about doing the "right" thing anymore.
Then he meets Brienne - who serves Lady Stark by choice; who will be allowed to kill Stannis when the time comes, and will not be asked for any dishonorable service. I think Brienne starts to change him. Especially once his sword-hand is cut off and she urges him to live on. Even mocking him for a 'woman'; something that was probably very painful for Brienne herself.
/edit
Brienne is basically Jaime, without the penis and the money. And we know that he doesn't have much interest in his penis; he doesn't go around bedding whores like all the other nobles do. And he doesn't care much for money either.
All he truly loves is swordsmanship; all he truly has. And Brienne is in the same position.
On May 19 2013 07:19 jmack wrote: That moment when Jamie jumps in the bear pit.
Chills in all of my body.
This season has been unreal.
Im not sure how I went from hating Jamie to cheering for Jamie.... I think thats a testament to the writers.
Personally, I think the way they're writing the character is a bit cheap. This is the guy who pushed a kid to his (supposed) death without giving it a second thought and coldly killed one of his cousins just to get a small shot at escaping captivity. Now, he's so compassionate he's willing to put his life in danger just to have a shot at saving someone whose only reason for taking somewhat care of him was that she was given an order to deliver him in one piece somewhere. I'm certainly not opposed to a transition in character, but here we've gone from one extreme to the other.
Not necessarily. I wish I can link the interview with the actor who plays Jamie (I'm unable to find it), but he puts it perfectly. With the character Jamie, your introduced to him the moment he does a reprehensible act. You as, a viewer or reader, are instantly turned off by his character and want nothing more than to see him axed. Now, we're just introduced to the other side of the coin. That Jamie isn't the one-dimensional character we've all seen in various shows.
What this season does for Jamie is show all the reasoning behind his actions. Why did he pushed Bran out the window... He genuinely loves Cersei (recall the scene with Bolton describing the Battle of Blackwater) and acted impulsely, either let Bran go and probably die or kill him. Why everyone derisively calls him Kingslayer... he was sorta forced to choose between to bad choices.
In other words, had the show began right when Kings Landing is getting sacked and Jamie has to choose between killing the king or millions of innocents, can you honestly say your opinion of him would remain the same?
I never had much of a problem with Jamie killing the Mad King - that action had nothing to do with how I felt with regards to his character. Him killing (he thought) Bran and him killing his cousin to get a shot at escaping were two clear examples of his extremely high disregard for others when his immediate interests were at play. Again, we went from someone who acted to murder a kid so casually you'd think it was part of his daily wake-up routine to someone willing to put his life in jeopardy without thinking for a person who was essentially ordered to deliver him somewhere. I am appreciating the transition and the nuance it brings to the character, but I felt that "jumping in the bear arena" episode was a little over-the-top (and cliché).
But I mean, it's still in line with his character wouldn't you say? In all instances (Mad King, Bran, killing Ned's men outside the brothel, jumping the bear pit), he doesn't seem to give much thought to the consequences. It's only with the latter in saving Brienne is he seen as "heroic," but in every situation he's action on self-interest/those he cares about.
That's the point of his character. He's grey, he's human, he can be arrogant, selfish and basically criminal but isn't a heartless sociopath. Brienned earned his respect and friendship and so he risked his life for her.
That doesn't undo his past actions, but those also don't take away the bravery and honor of saving Brienne.
This.
That's the point of this character and many other characters in GoT. They're like regular people. There are no righteous good guys and evil bad guys with few exception. They're just people. People who do terrible things and people who do amazing things. Hell, an argument can even be made that Joffrey isn't necessarily a bad person. He's been fucked up his entire life and never really had a true father figure and probably has some mental issues considering he's the product of incest. Compound teenage years, mental illness, no father figure and a spice of unchecked power and you got a recipe of clear destruction, one I don't think you could reasonably "blame" on him.
Like has been said many times before -- we walked in on Jaime in the worst part of his life when he knocked Brann off that tower. Imagine if you loved someone more than anything in the world, just the most irrational and true love on Earth and if literally anyone knew both of you would probably be either killed or completely defame your families name for generations. Would you not, in a panicked moment, perhaps do something that Jaime did? I don't think I could say I wouldn't. None of us have fortunately have been in such a situation but I don't think it's too far stretched for an otherwise pretty moral person doing something completely evil like that when he has nothing but adrenaline and fear pumping through him.
I don't know if we're watching the same show, but there was not an ounce of panic in Jamie's body when he pushed Brann to his supposed death. In fact, after grabbing Brann, he almost immediately looked down to assess whether the kid would die if he fell down the tower. After (wrongly) determining he would, he started smiling, jokingly said "quite the little climber, aren't you?", then ended with a humorous "the things I do for love..." and casually pushed Brann to his death without even looking at him. That was nothing but a cold self-preservation calculation - the fact that a kid had to die meant absolutely nothing to him compared to the fact that he deemed it necessary for his own sake. The exact same applies to him coldly murdering his own cousin to get a shot at escaping from the Stark prison camp.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that the characters aren't simply black or white, and I again welcome the change we're seeing in Jamie's character (or, if you want, the nuance we're being shown). All I'm saying is that having Jamie completely disregard his own safety and jump in an arena with no weapon in front of a frigging bear to save not Cersei but Brienne is so far out on the other end of the spectrum - in terms of both empathy for his fellow human and reasoning for action - that it was just too much, while everything until that scene was great and believable.
Jamie still knew the consequences though. He knew he would be killed, that his sister and lover would be killed, and that their children would be killed. The Lannister name forever tainted. I can definitely see how he would have pushed Bran out the window. I might have even done the same knowing what would have happened if I didn't. Also, Jamie has killed countless people, so he might be a bit more numb to that than we are. I'm sure he wouldn't kill Bran for no reason or even want to, but there was a clear choice to make, he didn't panic, kept his cool and made a decision. Might seem cold, but that's the mask that Jamie has worn since becoming the Kingslayer, which we can assume since he told his story to Brienne. Because of what happened in his past, he has become a bit like Little Finger. He sees that vows and honor and all that is an illusion. He does what he feels he has to do and has no problem with that. Jamie has no problem killing anyone if they're in his way, it's only senseless killing and suffering that he hates, which is why he had no problem trying to kill Brienne with a sword but went out of his way to save her from being raped. Same way that he would have killed Ned in a fair fight but let him live because someone else interfered. He's complex for sure.
About jumping in the pit, Jamie already felt like he owed her a debt, and she told him to just do what he is supposed to do and consider it paid. You can tell that it wasn't really a fair payment of his debt but he accepted it anyways. So he already felt some guilt. Then he finds out that she is going to be raped and killed all because of his lie to Locke. Now he feels fully responsible and heads back to save the only stranger who he ever opened up to and the only stranger who ended up respecting him, calling him Ser Jamie. Not only that, but he felt he was being protected. He can't die, or else Tywin will find out and exterminate Boltons. He knew he couldn't die which is why he told Brienne to get behind him.
This is all my interpretation but I can definitely see how everything went down the way it did.
Edit: Also Brienne totally reminds him of his past self, before he was forced to break his vows and kill the Mad King in order to save so many people.
On May 20 2013 07:59 SpikeStarcraft wrote: is there a new episode tonight?
Yes, but then none next week because of Memorial Day Weekend.
thank you very much. I was asking because i wasnt sure if you celebrate whitsunday in the states.
On May 20 2013 08:00 Zooper31 wrote:
On May 20 2013 07:59 SpikeStarcraft wrote: is there a new episode tonight?
Is it Sunday? Yes. There are new episodes on Sundays.
Thx for being a db.
You asked an incredibly easy answer that google could've handled in 2sec
Yet you still were a douchebag about it, it's not really a solid move on your part. If he asked this next Sunday, would you still say "Is it Sunday? Yes. There are new episodes on Sundays".
Less of being a prick good sir please, this is an easy going thread.
So were the crows following Samwell because he was a member of the Night's Watch?
dunno I feel like they are spies for the creature or something linked to it. Just got that feeling when all of them silenced when the wildy random creature appeared.
EPT
