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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 13 2013 09:02 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 08:53 silencefc wrote:
What about statutory rape? It's rape in our definition due to the "inability to consent properly," yet in GoT most females are wed off soon after their first period.
What they do is rape by our standards, but the characters don't see it as such. Our definition of rape does not 100% apply to their world and time. Just because someone doesn't know they're a slave doesn't mean they're not a slave and just because someone doesn't understand what they're having happen to them is slavery and rape doesn't mean it's not rape or slavery. Our definition holds, it just implies their culture is insufficient of understanding it.
That's rather elitist of you. Different cultures, different customs...what we attach to the word "rape" would be far too severe a connotation in their world...
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 13 2013 09:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 08:44 Fenrax wrote:On May 13 2013 07:29 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2013 06:39 Fenrax wrote:On May 13 2013 06:33 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2013 06:24 Fenrax wrote:
It was not rape imo. She was forced to marry him so it was his right to take her. Different times. That's still rape. No it is not. Our definitions of rape don't apply to that world and time. Rape is when a person has sex with another person without their consent. Which part of that doesn't apply to Drogo having sex with Dany without her consent? You might as well say our definition of eating doesn't apply to that world and time. It's a fairly simple concept which is pretty universal. Mankind could not exist, there could be no men or women anywhere and rape would still be when a man has sex with a woman (or the other way round) without their consent, it just wouldn't happen much. It was a woman's duty to marry the man whom the head of her family choose, share the bed with him and get his children and Dany submitted to that duty. So she consented. The world we live in fortunately is just more evolved in that regard and women don't have that duty anymore. Then their culture has institutionalised rape. That doesn't mean it's not rape. Hell, we allowed marital rape not so long ago, that was rape too.
They have institutionalized a form of mating that is different from ours. It is by all standards inferior to our way, but they also did not have the same means. Poor people starved to death or died early for countless reasons so you had much more incentive to get a good match for your daughter. There was no birth-control so the first guy your daughter fucked would most likely be the father of her children. Letting a child of 13-16 decide who is the best father for her child is just foolish.
Calling every man in that era/world a rapist and every mother who arranged a good match for their daughter an assistant to rape is just condescending and narrow-minded.
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On May 13 2013 09:50 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 09:21 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2013 08:44 Fenrax wrote:On May 13 2013 07:29 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2013 06:39 Fenrax wrote:On May 13 2013 06:33 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2013 06:24 Fenrax wrote:
It was not rape imo. She was forced to marry him so it was his right to take her. Different times. That's still rape. No it is not. Our definitions of rape don't apply to that world and time. Rape is when a person has sex with another person without their consent. Which part of that doesn't apply to Drogo having sex with Dany without her consent? You might as well say our definition of eating doesn't apply to that world and time. It's a fairly simple concept which is pretty universal. Mankind could not exist, there could be no men or women anywhere and rape would still be when a man has sex with a woman (or the other way round) without their consent, it just wouldn't happen much. It was a woman's duty to marry the man whom the head of her family choose, share the bed with him and get his children and Dany submitted to that duty. So she consented. The world we live in fortunately is just more evolved in that regard and women don't have that duty anymore. Then their culture has institutionalised rape. That doesn't mean it's not rape. Hell, we allowed marital rape not so long ago, that was rape too. They have institutionalized a form of mating that is different from ours. It is by all standards inferior to our way, but they also did not have the same means. Poor people starved to death or died early for countless reasons so you had much more incentive to get a good match for your daughter. There was no birth-control so the first guy your daughter fucked would most likely be the father of her children. Letting a child of 13-16 decide who is the best father for her child is just foolish. Calling every man in that era/world a rapist and every mother who arranged a good match for their daughter an assistant to rape is just condescending and narrow-minded.
You are equating non-consensual with arranged. Just because a marriage is arranged doesn't mean the sex will be non-consensual. This isn't a complex concept to understand. If the woman (or man) does not want to have sex, and is forced to have sex it is rape. Ignore all the other factors because they aren't important. It's as simple as that.
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It's important to remember where Dany came from, when asking how she could love a "rapist" for a husband.
She was raised by her extremely abusive brother, who treated her completely like a sexual object. When she was "bought", she knew what Drogo would do.... so the "rape" wasn't a surprise. Yes, it is rape, but given all the context surrounding it, it's not just some random violence. And after their marriage settles, Drogo empowers her. He calls her a queen. After being subservient to her dominating brother all her life, Drogo, her rapist, is the one that empowers her, for the first time in her life, to not be a sexual object.
So, yes, Drogo rapes her in the same sense that a lot of arranged marriages can said to be rapes, but all in all, she is better off from having been his wife.
E; It's not at all shocking that she loves him and is grateful to him. He died fighting for her honor. People who characterize the relationship between these two characters as having anything to do with rape really aren't understanding the characters, their background, or the story.
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On May 13 2013 09:53 Tewks44 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 09:50 Fenrax wrote:On May 13 2013 09:21 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2013 08:44 Fenrax wrote:On May 13 2013 07:29 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2013 06:39 Fenrax wrote:On May 13 2013 06:33 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2013 06:24 Fenrax wrote:
It was not rape imo. She was forced to marry him so it was his right to take her. Different times. That's still rape. No it is not. Our definitions of rape don't apply to that world and time. Rape is when a person has sex with another person without their consent. Which part of that doesn't apply to Drogo having sex with Dany without her consent? You might as well say our definition of eating doesn't apply to that world and time. It's a fairly simple concept which is pretty universal. Mankind could not exist, there could be no men or women anywhere and rape would still be when a man has sex with a woman (or the other way round) without their consent, it just wouldn't happen much. It was a woman's duty to marry the man whom the head of her family choose, share the bed with him and get his children and Dany submitted to that duty. So she consented. The world we live in fortunately is just more evolved in that regard and women don't have that duty anymore. Then their culture has institutionalised rape. That doesn't mean it's not rape. Hell, we allowed marital rape not so long ago, that was rape too. They have institutionalized a form of mating that is different from ours. It is by all standards inferior to our way, but they also did not have the same means. Poor people starved to death or died early for countless reasons so you had much more incentive to get a good match for your daughter. There was no birth-control so the first guy your daughter fucked would most likely be the father of her children. Letting a child of 13-16 decide who is the best father for her child is just foolish. Calling every man in that era/world a rapist and every mother who arranged a good match for their daughter an assistant to rape is just condescending and narrow-minded. You are equating non-consensual with arranged. Just because a marriage is arranged doesn't mean the sex will be non-consensual. This isn't a complex concept to understand. If the woman (or man) does not want to have sex, and is forced to have sex it is rape. Ignore all the other factors because they aren't important. It's as simple as that.
In this world, I'm pretty sure when you agree to marry a barbarian king, you're agreeing to have sex. I'm not saying it's right by any standards that she be forced to bed her husband -- but she knew she'd have to.
The first scene we see of Danaerys is her getting a nude physical inspection from her brother, because he wants her to look sexually pleasing... Why do they want her to look pleasing? So Drogo will marry her and have sex with her.
There is a language barrier that prevents direct consent, so you could call it rape. But it's really ignoring a lot of very important context, in a fictional story, set in a fictional world.
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Loving these "inside the episodes" thx for adding them Zelniq.
And how about you guys just drop the rape thing, it's a bit off track and doesn't really have anything to do with the story whether you consider them to be raped or just treated badly
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 13 2013 10:06 Prplppleatr wrote:
And how about you guys just drop the rape thing, it's a bit off track and doesn't really have anything to do with the story whether you consider them to be raped or just treated badly
It is pretty important for the quality of the story if Drogo raped Dany or not. I think it is safe to say that women do not fall in love with their rapists, so it would mean that we are watching a pretty terrible show if he did indeed rape her.
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Drogo clearly favours Danny more after she takes charge of their relationship. From what we can see in the show, Dothraki respect strength - that much is clear. Quite a bit like the wildlings in that sense. Being forced into sex shows weakness. Weak is bad. Forced sex, (which English speakers refer to as Rape) is bad, atleast in that sense.
Also, lol@people claiming cultural differences. A sword in the gut is an attack in all cultures. Same applies to being forced to do something you don't want to.
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On May 13 2013 10:11 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 10:06 Prplppleatr wrote:
And how about you guys just drop the rape thing, it's a bit off track and doesn't really have anything to do with the story whether you consider them to be raped or just treated badly It is pretty important for the quality of the story if Drogo raped Dany or not. I think it is safe to say that women do not fall in love with their rapists, so it would mean that we are watching a pretty terrible show if he did indeed rape her.
I think it is safe to say that is insufficient grounds for dragging a huge rape debate into an otherwise decent thread.
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As far as the rape, is it ever said that Dany didn't agree to the marriage in the first place? My memory is hazy on s1, but I recall her attitude being somewhat hopelessly compliant. Of course she didn't exactly want to marry a barbarian, but she went along with it, and she knew all of the implications. I'm not sure if the transaction would have taken place if she had protested.
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On May 13 2013 10:11 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 10:06 Prplppleatr wrote:
And how about you guys just drop the rape thing, it's a bit off track and doesn't really have anything to do with the story whether you consider them to be raped or just treated badly It is pretty important for the quality of the story if Drogo raped Dany or not. I think it is safe to say that women do not fall in love with their rapists, so it would mean that we are watching a pretty terrible show if he did indeed rape her.
how fucking stupid would it be for that barbarian ''king'' to strike a deal buying him some hot noble-foreigner ass in exchange of an army if he bitchslapped said noble chick and raped her in the ass in front of everyone?
so yeah, hes just protecting his investment.
he wants their son to be the stallion that mounts the world after all.
edit: I agree with Zahir though.
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I find the Dragon storyline starting to become annoying.
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On May 13 2013 10:27 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
I find the Dragon storyline starting to become annoying.
You shut your mouth.
Those dragons are going to lead to some epic battles... hopefully. Watching that one dragon burn the guy who was "selling" the slave troops was just a taste of what is to come from these little balls of fire.
Unless something stupid happens and they're rendered useless, but I doubt that. TL;DR.
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On May 13 2013 09:49 StyLeD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 09:02 Hitch-22 wrote:On May 13 2013 08:53 silencefc wrote:
What about statutory rape? It's rape in our definition due to the "inability to consent properly," yet in GoT most females are wed off soon after their first period.
What they do is rape by our standards, but the characters don't see it as such. Our definition of rape does not 100% apply to their world and time. Just because someone doesn't know they're a slave doesn't mean they're not a slave and just because someone doesn't understand what they're having happen to them is slavery and rape doesn't mean it's not rape or slavery. Our definition holds, it just implies their culture is insufficient of understanding it. That's rather elitist of you. Different cultures, different customs...what we attach to the word "rape" would be far too severe a connotation in their world...
If someone today had equivalent morals to medieval era (what GoT is based in) morals, we'd still call it rape if he forced a women to marry him, raped her at night and called it lawful because of his "set of mind". It's not elitist to call rape, rape it is idiotic to justify the actions of others because their moral compass is lesser then ours... Unless you're arguing that we can't judge their moral compass as lesser and rape and slavery are adequate pastimes which is a slippery and ridiculous argument.
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I'm loving this credits music man.
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I half expected Jaimie:
+ Show Spoiler +To push the guy over to be killed by the Grizzly.
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That was a rather boring episode plot wise
Edit: Dont get me wrong, itt was still a good and enjoyable episode.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 13 2013 10:50 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 09:49 StyLeD wrote:On May 13 2013 09:02 Hitch-22 wrote:On May 13 2013 08:53 silencefc wrote:
What about statutory rape? It's rape in our definition due to the "inability to consent properly," yet in GoT most females are wed off soon after their first period.
What they do is rape by our standards, but the characters don't see it as such. Our definition of rape does not 100% apply to their world and time. Just because someone doesn't know they're a slave doesn't mean they're not a slave and just because someone doesn't understand what they're having happen to them is slavery and rape doesn't mean it's not rape or slavery. Our definition holds, it just implies their culture is insufficient of understanding it. That's rather elitist of you. Different cultures, different customs...what we attach to the word "rape" would be far too severe a connotation in their world... If someone today had equivalent morals to medieval era (what GoT is based in) morals, we'd still call it rape if he forced a women to marry him, raped her at night and called it lawful because of his "set of mind". It's not elitist to call rape, rape it is idiotic to justify the actions of others because their moral compass is lesser then ours... Unless you're arguing that we can't judge their moral compass as lesser and rape and slavery are adequate pastimes which is a slippery and ridiculous argument.
And if someone from our era went to the GoT world and claimed that pretty much all men are rapists because most marriages are arranged by their parents they would hang him by the next tree. King Robert? Rapist. Ned Stark? Rapist. Edmure Tully? Most likely soon to be a rapist. That is the point. Different eras.
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On May 13 2013 11:02 holy_war wrote:
That was a rather boring episode plot wise
How so?
Daenarys is threatening war against a city-state that has 200,000 slaves that can be freed and added to their ranks, Theon was just made a eunuch, a lot of shit happened between Jon and that crazy guy and Ygritte, Robb found out he has a child and potentially an heir on the way, Jaime risked his life to save his former captor, and Bran revealed he wants to go North of the wall.
EDIT: Oh man and I forgot about based Sandor coming out of nowhere out of the shadows too and grabbing Arya.
I dunno, maybe it's just me but I'm loving that the episodes are slowing down like this. Every episode can't be super epic otherwise the epicness would be cheapened. That's why I love HBO and other private channel series' -- we can have proper pacing. Not every episode needs to have dragons burning down a city or Sean Bean being executed.
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pretty good episode imo.
1) Theon getting gg'ed between the legs
2) Joffery getting sat on by Tywin
3) Jamie being bad ass
4) good ending song
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EPT
