On May 07 2013 19:40 -Archangel- wrote: Haha, some of the comments about passing the wall are borderline idiotic. So you people would go to north or south pole and melt that ice as well with cave man built fire?! Are you people kidding? At best they can use torches (as they are mobile) and those would probably melt the ice slower then new one would form around them. Also the people suggesting them digging through it. Wall is very wide by what we seen, I don't think digging through it is such a simple matter, even for giants. And they got no quality steel digging tools. Unless you want them to dig with their fingers... And digging underground tunnels through ice frozen ground with no modern tools?! Good luck with that. ..
So you're saying ... people couldn't light mighty fires back then? If the wall wasn't magical (which it is) and just a tall ice wall you'd need about 400 basic fires along about 12 feet apart to melt that wall down.. Not use a'torch' lol.
"borderline idiotic I say!!!!"
You don't need much in removing structural stability to have a 700ft ice wall fall, just some shifting on the base weight will topple it since it's not strung together with proper structural integrity.
lighting a mighty fire would cause a lot of attention and would take a while given how big the wall is. Chances are high that the nights watch finds out and is going to defend there. Plus the wall serves a purpose. If you destroy the wall, then what stops the white walkers?
If you have the entire army of Mance standing outside the fucking wall against 1000 nights watchmen do you think they're going to jump outside and 'defend the fire'... They'd be lucky if they could even fire down arrows on them from 700ft let alone engage lol.
It'd be the quickest wall collapse known to man, zero structural stability (note what happened as they climbed) and the fact its an ice wall... lol
you have 10000 men, light 1000 (1 for every 10 men, or even 100) fires at the base, there goes the wall... This is fucking ice, take some ice outside for a second and see how fast it melts in daylight temperature let alone fire, it doesn't have to be very hot.
Yah and you could dig through it etc. But as already said, if it wasnt for magic the wall would not stand in the first place and melt on its own like our glaciers. Lets just say its magic and therefore impenetrable.
Much global warming going on in Westeros?
The wall stands in an arctic or at least tundric permafrost climate zone. Imagine northern siberia. Constantly below -10 degrees celsius, even in the summer.
No it is not in a permafrost climate. There are trees, which means its not permafrost. Ok the TV show chose to show the wall in a snowy environment, so that people dont immediately realize that the wall would actually have to melt. But that doesnt change the fact that the wall in the GoT world is NOT in a permafrost zone, not even tundric. While we are at it we could of course also talk about how winters that last years dont make any sense. No normal plants would survive that. And how do you know whats a year if it wasnt for the seasons?
Lets just stop it, the wall and all kind of other stuff does not make sense in a non-magical context.
I think the best part of his post was he was talking about how cold it gets and mentioned -10 degrees celcius like it's cold... It was -10 degrees in April here in New Brunswick/Nova Scotia let alone in Northern Siberia : D
Stop patronizing people in a thread about a fantasy world. You do realize the difference between temperature also dropping beneath -10 and temperature never raising above -10, right?
On May 07 2013 19:40 -Archangel- wrote: Haha, some of the comments about passing the wall are borderline idiotic. So you people would go to north or south pole and melt that ice as well with cave man built fire?! Are you people kidding? At best they can use torches (as they are mobile) and those would probably melt the ice slower then new one would form around them. Also the people suggesting them digging through it. Wall is very wide by what we seen, I don't think digging through it is such a simple matter, even for giants. And they got no quality steel digging tools. Unless you want them to dig with their fingers... And digging underground tunnels through ice frozen ground with no modern tools?! Good luck with that. ..
So you're saying ... people couldn't light mighty fires back then? If the wall wasn't magical (which it is) and just a tall ice wall you'd need about 400 basic fires along about 12 feet apart to melt that wall down.. Not use a'torch' lol.
"borderline idiotic I say!!!!"
You don't need much in removing structural stability to have a 700ft ice wall fall, just some shifting on the base weight will topple it since it's not strung together with proper structural integrity.
lighting a mighty fire would cause a lot of attention and would take a while given how big the wall is. Chances are high that the nights watch finds out and is going to defend there. Plus the wall serves a purpose. If you destroy the wall, then what stops the white walkers?
If you have the entire army of Mance standing outside the fucking wall against 1000 nights watchmen do you think they're going to jump outside and 'defend the fire'... They'd be lucky if they could even fire down arrows on them from 700ft let alone engage lol.
It'd be the quickest wall collapse known to man, zero structural stability (note what happened as they climbed) and the fact its an ice wall... lol
you have 10000 men, light 1000 (1 for every 10 men, or even 100) fires at the base, there goes the wall... This is fucking ice, take some ice outside for a second and see how fast it melts in daylight temperature let alone fire, it doesn't have to be very hot.
Yah and you could dig through it etc. But as already said, if it wasnt for magic the wall would not stand in the first place and melt on its own like our glaciers. Lets just say its magic and therefore impenetrable.
Much global warming going on in Westeros?
The wall stands in an arctic or at least tundric permafrost climate zone. Imagine northern siberia. Constantly below -10 degrees celsius, even in the summer.
No it is not in a permafrost climate. There are trees, which means its not permafrost.
On May 07 2013 19:40 -Archangel- wrote: Haha, some of the comments about passing the wall are borderline idiotic. So you people would go to north or south pole and melt that ice as well with cave man built fire?! Are you people kidding? At best they can use torches (as they are mobile) and those would probably melt the ice slower then new one would form around them. Also the people suggesting them digging through it. Wall is very wide by what we seen, I don't think digging through it is such a simple matter, even for giants. And they got no quality steel digging tools. Unless you want them to dig with their fingers... And digging underground tunnels through ice frozen ground with no modern tools?! Good luck with that. ..
So you're saying ... people couldn't light mighty fires back then? If the wall wasn't magical (which it is) and just a tall ice wall you'd need about 400 basic fires along about 12 feet apart to melt that wall down.. Not use a'torch' lol.
"borderline idiotic I say!!!!"
You don't need much in removing structural stability to have a 700ft ice wall fall, just some shifting on the base weight will topple it since it's not strung together with proper structural integrity.
lighting a mighty fire would cause a lot of attention and would take a while given how big the wall is. Chances are high that the nights watch finds out and is going to defend there. Plus the wall serves a purpose. If you destroy the wall, then what stops the white walkers?
If you have the entire army of Mance standing outside the fucking wall against 1000 nights watchmen do you think they're going to jump outside and 'defend the fire'... They'd be lucky if they could even fire down arrows on them from 700ft let alone engage lol.
It'd be the quickest wall collapse known to man, zero structural stability (note what happened as they climbed) and the fact its an ice wall... lol
you have 10000 men, light 1000 (1 for every 10 men, or even 100) fires at the base, there goes the wall... This is fucking ice, take some ice outside for a second and see how fast it melts in daylight temperature let alone fire, it doesn't have to be very hot.
Yah and you could dig through it etc. But as already said, if it wasnt for magic the wall would not stand in the first place and melt on its own like our glaciers. Lets just say its magic and therefore impenetrable.
Much global warming going on in Westeros?
The wall stands in an arctic or at least tundric permafrost climate zone. Imagine northern siberia. Constantly below -10 degrees celsius, even in the summer.
No it is not in a permafrost climate. There are trees, which means its not permafrost.
On May 07 2013 19:40 -Archangel- wrote: Haha, some of the comments about passing the wall are borderline idiotic. So you people would go to north or south pole and melt that ice as well with cave man built fire?! Are you people kidding? At best they can use torches (as they are mobile) and those would probably melt the ice slower then new one would form around them. Also the people suggesting them digging through it. Wall is very wide by what we seen, I don't think digging through it is such a simple matter, even for giants. And they got no quality steel digging tools. Unless you want them to dig with their fingers... And digging underground tunnels through ice frozen ground with no modern tools?! Good luck with that. ..
So you're saying ... people couldn't light mighty fires back then? If the wall wasn't magical (which it is) and just a tall ice wall you'd need about 400 basic fires along about 12 feet apart to melt that wall down.. Not use a'torch' lol.
"borderline idiotic I say!!!!"
You don't need much in removing structural stability to have a 700ft ice wall fall, just some shifting on the base weight will topple it since it's not strung together with proper structural integrity.
lighting a mighty fire would cause a lot of attention and would take a while given how big the wall is. Chances are high that the nights watch finds out and is going to defend there. Plus the wall serves a purpose. If you destroy the wall, then what stops the white walkers?
If you have the entire army of Mance standing outside the fucking wall against 1000 nights watchmen do you think they're going to jump outside and 'defend the fire'... They'd be lucky if they could even fire down arrows on them from 700ft let alone engage lol.
It'd be the quickest wall collapse known to man, zero structural stability (note what happened as they climbed) and the fact its an ice wall... lol
you have 10000 men, light 1000 (1 for every 10 men, or even 100) fires at the base, there goes the wall... This is fucking ice, take some ice outside for a second and see how fast it melts in daylight temperature let alone fire, it doesn't have to be very hot.
Yah and you could dig through it etc. But as already said, if it wasnt for magic the wall would not stand in the first place and melt on its own like our glaciers. Lets just say its magic and therefore impenetrable.
Much global warming going on in Westeros?
The wall stands in an arctic or at least tundric permafrost climate zone. Imagine northern siberia. Constantly below -10 degrees celsius, even in the summer.
No it is not in a permafrost climate. There are trees, which means its not permafrost.
Cant believe you are still arguing this. Trees and other plants need temperatures above zero for extended periods to grow. There is obviously not constantly -10° C like you claim. The permafrost in your link refers to the ground. Yes, if the wall was buried in permafrost ground it would not melt, but I dont think that is what we are discussing here.
On May 07 2013 19:40 -Archangel- wrote: Haha, some of the comments about passing the wall are borderline idiotic. So you people would go to north or south pole and melt that ice as well with cave man built fire?! Are you people kidding? At best they can use torches (as they are mobile) and those would probably melt the ice slower then new one would form around them. Also the people suggesting them digging through it. Wall is very wide by what we seen, I don't think digging through it is such a simple matter, even for giants. And they got no quality steel digging tools. Unless you want them to dig with their fingers... And digging underground tunnels through ice frozen ground with no modern tools?! Good luck with that. ..
So you're saying ... people couldn't light mighty fires back then? If the wall wasn't magical (which it is) and just a tall ice wall you'd need about 400 basic fires along about 12 feet apart to melt that wall down.. Not use a'torch' lol.
"borderline idiotic I say!!!!"
You don't need much in removing structural stability to have a 700ft ice wall fall, just some shifting on the base weight will topple it since it's not strung together with proper structural integrity.
lighting a mighty fire would cause a lot of attention and would take a while given how big the wall is. Chances are high that the nights watch finds out and is going to defend there. Plus the wall serves a purpose. If you destroy the wall, then what stops the white walkers?
If you have the entire army of Mance standing outside the fucking wall against 1000 nights watchmen do you think they're going to jump outside and 'defend the fire'... They'd be lucky if they could even fire down arrows on them from 700ft let alone engage lol.
It'd be the quickest wall collapse known to man, zero structural stability (note what happened as they climbed) and the fact its an ice wall... lol
you have 10000 men, light 1000 (1 for every 10 men, or even 100) fires at the base, there goes the wall... This is fucking ice, take some ice outside for a second and see how fast it melts in daylight temperature let alone fire, it doesn't have to be very hot.
Yah and you could dig through it etc. But as already said, if it wasnt for magic the wall would not stand in the first place and melt on its own like our glaciers. Lets just say its magic and therefore impenetrable.
Much global warming going on in Westeros?
The wall stands in an arctic or at least tundric permafrost climate zone. Imagine northern siberia. Constantly below -10 degrees celsius, even in the summer. The wall would not melt on its own, even if it were not built by magic in the first place. Like a glacier, it will absorb falling snow and humidity over the millenia. It is, in a way, self-repairing, as the glaciers were on Earth for millenia. Lighting a fire next to a glacier will not do anything to it besides dousing the fire after a while. Also the water freezes back up as soon as it leaves the radius of warmth from the fire. Which is, seeing the extreme temperatures that would surround a cubic mile of ice, quite limited.
Granted, glaciers are not shaped that way. Maybe you could melt a cave through it, given enough fuel and a system to drain the melting water. Probably that is how the tunnels at the watch fortresses were made. But it would take quite a bit longer than just climbing up.
if you start to bring physics into this...the wall would not stand at all. the ice on the bottom would be melted under the weight of the ice above, or at least pushed to the side. there is a reason glaciers migrates, and dont just stay were the are.
It's ok, this guy obvs never took much in the way of geotherms or physics in his life... He just "imagines" that's how it works, it's cold so giant walls of ice can exist by themselves loloololol. Without 'magic' this is the most structurally instable thing ever to exist, it would tumble at the slightest breeze or temp change let alone simply caving in on itself.
Sure - But it would not melt. I was not talking about structural integrity, just about the possibilities of melting an ice cube 2 cubic kilometres big that _is already there_. Thanks for the productive tone though, much appreciated.
Not a single person mentioned 'melting' the ice wall, we are all talking about bypassing or collapsing it (hence fire would make its structural integrity grind to about 0.
Anywho, we can all agree magic holds it up yada yada; who's pissed Stark's no longer marrying that babe.
On May 07 2013 19:40 -Archangel- wrote: Haha, some of the comments about passing the wall are borderline idiotic. So you people would go to north or south pole and melt that ice as well with cave man built fire?! Are you people kidding? At best they can use torches (as they are mobile) and those would probably melt the ice slower then new one would form around them. Also the people suggesting them digging through it. Wall is very wide by what we seen, I don't think digging through it is such a simple matter, even for giants. And they got no quality steel digging tools. Unless you want them to dig with their fingers... And digging underground tunnels through ice frozen ground with no modern tools?! Good luck with that. ..
So you're saying ... people couldn't light mighty fires back then? If the wall wasn't magical (which it is) and just a tall ice wall you'd need about 400 basic fires along about 12 feet apart to melt that wall down.. Not use a'torch' lol.
"borderline idiotic I say!!!!"
You don't need much in removing structural stability to have a 700ft ice wall fall, just some shifting on the base weight will topple it since it's not strung together with proper structural integrity.
lighting a mighty fire would cause a lot of attention and would take a while given how big the wall is. Chances are high that the nights watch finds out and is going to defend there. Plus the wall serves a purpose. If you destroy the wall, then what stops the white walkers?
If you have the entire army of Mance standing outside the fucking wall against 1000 nights watchmen do you think they're going to jump outside and 'defend the fire'... They'd be lucky if they could even fire down arrows on them from 700ft let alone engage lol.
It'd be the quickest wall collapse known to man, zero structural stability (note what happened as they climbed) and the fact its an ice wall... lol
you have 10000 men, light 1000 (1 for every 10 men, or even 100) fires at the base, there goes the wall... This is fucking ice, take some ice outside for a second and see how fast it melts in daylight temperature let alone fire, it doesn't have to be very hot.
Yah and you could dig through it etc. But as already said, if it wasnt for magic the wall would not stand in the first place and melt on its own like our glaciers. Lets just say its magic and therefore impenetrable.
Much global warming going on in Westeros?
The wall stands in an arctic or at least tundric permafrost climate zone. Imagine northern siberia. Constantly below -10 degrees celsius, even in the summer.
No it is not in a permafrost climate. There are trees, which means its not permafrost.
On May 07 2013 19:40 -Archangel- wrote: Haha, some of the comments about passing the wall are borderline idiotic. So you people would go to north or south pole and melt that ice as well with cave man built fire?! Are you people kidding? At best they can use torches (as they are mobile) and those would probably melt the ice slower then new one would form around them. Also the people suggesting them digging through it. Wall is very wide by what we seen, I don't think digging through it is such a simple matter, even for giants. And they got no quality steel digging tools. Unless you want them to dig with their fingers... And digging underground tunnels through ice frozen ground with no modern tools?! Good luck with that. ..
So you're saying ... people couldn't light mighty fires back then? If the wall wasn't magical (which it is) and just a tall ice wall you'd need about 400 basic fires along about 12 feet apart to melt that wall down.. Not use a'torch' lol.
"borderline idiotic I say!!!!"
You don't need much in removing structural stability to have a 700ft ice wall fall, just some shifting on the base weight will topple it since it's not strung together with proper structural integrity.
lighting a mighty fire would cause a lot of attention and would take a while given how big the wall is. Chances are high that the nights watch finds out and is going to defend there. Plus the wall serves a purpose. If you destroy the wall, then what stops the white walkers?
If you have the entire army of Mance standing outside the fucking wall against 1000 nights watchmen do you think they're going to jump outside and 'defend the fire'... They'd be lucky if they could even fire down arrows on them from 700ft let alone engage lol.
It'd be the quickest wall collapse known to man, zero structural stability (note what happened as they climbed) and the fact its an ice wall... lol
you have 10000 men, light 1000 (1 for every 10 men, or even 100) fires at the base, there goes the wall... This is fucking ice, take some ice outside for a second and see how fast it melts in daylight temperature let alone fire, it doesn't have to be very hot.
Yah and you could dig through it etc. But as already said, if it wasnt for magic the wall would not stand in the first place and melt on its own like our glaciers. Lets just say its magic and therefore impenetrable.
Much global warming going on in Westeros?
The wall stands in an arctic or at least tundric permafrost climate zone. Imagine northern siberia. Constantly below -10 degrees celsius, even in the summer.
No it is not in a permafrost climate. There are trees, which means its not permafrost.
No no, there are firebreathing dragons and shadow demon spawns but there can't be trees in a permafrost climate
The point of the discussion was that the wall could not exist in a non-magic world. It can very well in Westeros because of magic.
Also just because 'magic' is involved doesn't mean things, such as permafrost, need to be changed... That's not what sci-fi and fantasy do, you don't need to change the physics of the entire galaxy to allow FTL travel, just throw some fancy words around and have a loophole.
On May 07 2013 19:40 -Archangel- wrote: Haha, some of the comments about passing the wall are borderline idiotic. So you people would go to north or south pole and melt that ice as well with cave man built fire?! Are you people kidding? At best they can use torches (as they are mobile) and those would probably melt the ice slower then new one would form around them. Also the people suggesting them digging through it. Wall is very wide by what we seen, I don't think digging through it is such a simple matter, even for giants. And they got no quality steel digging tools. Unless you want them to dig with their fingers... And digging underground tunnels through ice frozen ground with no modern tools?! Good luck with that. ..
So you're saying ... people couldn't light mighty fires back then? If the wall wasn't magical (which it is) and just a tall ice wall you'd need about 400 basic fires along about 12 feet apart to melt that wall down.. Not use a'torch' lol.
"borderline idiotic I say!!!!"
You don't need much in removing structural stability to have a 700ft ice wall fall, just some shifting on the base weight will topple it since it's not strung together with proper structural integrity.
lighting a mighty fire would cause a lot of attention and would take a while given how big the wall is. Chances are high that the nights watch finds out and is going to defend there. Plus the wall serves a purpose. If you destroy the wall, then what stops the white walkers?
If you have the entire army of Mance standing outside the fucking wall against 1000 nights watchmen do you think they're going to jump outside and 'defend the fire'... They'd be lucky if they could even fire down arrows on them from 700ft let alone engage lol.
It'd be the quickest wall collapse known to man, zero structural stability (note what happened as they climbed) and the fact its an ice wall... lol
you have 10000 men, light 1000 (1 for every 10 men, or even 100) fires at the base, there goes the wall... This is fucking ice, take some ice outside for a second and see how fast it melts in daylight temperature let alone fire, it doesn't have to be very hot.
Yah and you could dig through it etc. But as already said, if it wasnt for magic the wall would not stand in the first place and melt on its own like our glaciers. Lets just say its magic and therefore impenetrable.
Much global warming going on in Westeros?
The wall stands in an arctic or at least tundric permafrost climate zone. Imagine northern siberia. Constantly below -10 degrees celsius, even in the summer.
No it is not in a permafrost climate. There are trees, which means its not permafrost.
No no, there are firebreathing dragons and shadow demon spawns but there can't be trees in a permafrost climate
The point of the discussion was that the wall could not exist in a non-magic world. It can very well in Westeros because of magic.
Oh, ok. I thought the discussion was about whether you could damage the wall by lighting a couple of campfires at its base. Which I did not think is the case, even if there wasn't much magic involved. Try melting a cubic foot block of ice with a lit match. That the existence of the wall per se requires magic in the first place, I totally agree. Nothing to get worked up about though, no hard feelings?
So you're saying ... people couldn't light mighty fires back then? If the wall wasn't magical (which it is) and just a tall ice wall you'd need about 400 basic fires along about 12 feet apart to melt that wall down.. Not use a'torch' lol.
"borderline idiotic I say!!!!"
You don't need much in removing structural stability to have a 700ft ice wall fall, just some shifting on the base weight will topple it since it's not strung together with proper structural integrity.
lighting a mighty fire would cause a lot of attention and would take a while given how big the wall is. Chances are high that the nights watch finds out and is going to defend there. Plus the wall serves a purpose. If you destroy the wall, then what stops the white walkers?
If you have the entire army of Mance standing outside the fucking wall against 1000 nights watchmen do you think they're going to jump outside and 'defend the fire'... They'd be lucky if they could even fire down arrows on them from 700ft let alone engage lol.
It'd be the quickest wall collapse known to man, zero structural stability (note what happened as they climbed) and the fact its an ice wall... lol
you have 10000 men, light 1000 (1 for every 10 men, or even 100) fires at the base, there goes the wall... This is fucking ice, take some ice outside for a second and see how fast it melts in daylight temperature let alone fire, it doesn't have to be very hot.
Yah and you could dig through it etc. But as already said, if it wasnt for magic the wall would not stand in the first place and melt on its own like our glaciers. Lets just say its magic and therefore impenetrable.
Much global warming going on in Westeros?
The wall stands in an arctic or at least tundric permafrost climate zone. Imagine northern siberia. Constantly below -10 degrees celsius, even in the summer.
No it is not in a permafrost climate. There are trees, which means its not permafrost.
On May 07 2013 23:13 Hitch-22 wrote: who's pissed Stark's no longer marrying that babe.
He already married her. Robb is going to make the Mormon thing and legalize polygyny. He can do that as King of the North. The Frey girl won't get anything from it besides a warm bed and a servant because the children of the first women come first as heirs. Autocracy ftw
On May 07 2013 23:13 Hitch-22 wrote: who's pissed Stark's no longer marrying that babe.
He already married her. Robb is going to make the Mormon thing and legalize polygyny. He can do that as King of the North. The Frey girl won't get anything from it besides a warm bed and a servant because the children of the first women come first as heirs. Autocracy ftw
Edmure agreed to marry the Frey girl in Robb's place, though Robb was kind of a jack ass guilting his uncle into doing that after completely blowing the Frey's off himself, with seemingly no regrets, or thoughts about the consequences until now, even after Catelyn counseled him against it beforehand. Seemed like a spoiled child going thru with his marriage to Talisa and using Catelyn's mistake of releasing Jaime as his justification for him to be allowed to make a mistake.
On May 07 2013 23:13 Hitch-22 wrote: who's pissed Stark's no longer marrying that babe.
He already married her. Robb is going to make the Mormon thing and legalize polygyny. He can do that as King of the North. The Frey girl won't get anything from it besides a warm bed and a servant because the children of the first women come first as heirs. Autocracy ftw
Edmure agreed to marry the Frey girl in Robb's place, though Robb was kind of a jack ass guilting his uncle into doing that after completely blowing the Frey's off himself, with seemingly no regrets, or thoughts about the consequences until now, even after Catelyn counseled him against it beforehand. Seemed like a spoiled child going thru with his marriage to Talisa and using Catelyn's mistake of releasing Jaime as his justification for him to be allowed to make a mistake.
It wasn't in Robbs place, it was in addition to Robb marrying the Frey girl?
On May 07 2013 23:13 Hitch-22 wrote: who's pissed Stark's no longer marrying that babe.
He already married her. Robb is going to make the Mormon thing and legalize polygyny. He can do that as King of the North. The Frey girl won't get anything from it besides a warm bed and a servant because the children of the first women come first as heirs. Autocracy ftw
Edmure agreed to marry the Frey girl in Robb's place, though Robb was kind of a jack ass guilting his uncle into doing that after completely blowing the Frey's off himself, with seemingly no regrets, or thoughts about the consequences until now, even after Catelyn counseled him against it beforehand. Seemed like a spoiled child going thru with his marriage to Talisa and using Catelyn's mistake of releasing Jaime as his justification for him to be allowed to make a mistake.
Yes - Like the execution of Lord Carstark, the whole marriage thing shows that while Robb seems to have a talent to be a brillant strategist and military commander, he is a horrible politician or diplomat. I wonder whether that might turn out bad for him sooner or later...
On May 07 2013 23:13 Hitch-22 wrote: who's pissed Stark's no longer marrying that babe.
He already married her. Robb is going to make the Mormon thing and legalize polygyny. He can do that as King of the North. The Frey girl won't get anything from it besides a warm bed and a servant because the children of the first women come first as heirs. Autocracy ftw
Edmure agreed to marry the Frey girl in Robb's place, though Robb was kind of a jack ass guilting his uncle into doing that after completely blowing the Frey's off himself, with seemingly no regrets, or thoughts about the consequences until now, even after Catelyn counseled him against it beforehand. Seemed like a spoiled child going thru with his marriage to Talisa and using Catelyn's mistake of releasing Jaime as his justification for him to be allowed to make a mistake.
It wasn't in Robbs place, it was in addition to Robb marrying the Frey girl?
No, it was in place Edit: if the guy gets to marry his daughter to a king, he wouldn't really care marrying any other one to anyone else ...
On May 07 2013 18:10 xavra41 wrote: Yeah leave zatic alone it was just a dumb idea. A smart idea would have eagle boy have his bird carry the rope to the top (pre-knotted of course) so when they climb they have a safe rope throughout.
Bro, a bird does not have the upper body strength to accomplish that.
On April 24 2013 00:25 zatic wrote: There are hardly any reliable troop numbers to go by. My estimate :
North: 18k - 2k (ruse) + Freys - losses + Riverrun We don't know how many troops Riverrun contributed We don't know what happened to the Frey troops after Robb crossed Walder Frey over the wedding We don't know anything about their losses after the initial 2k sacrifice other than that the Lannisters take more Easiest would be to say Riverrun contributed enough to compensate for the losses, so still around 18k left
Lannisters - significantly more, but never really specified, and confusing troop mentions Initially, they have 60k troops, of which Tywin and Jamie command 30k each. Tywins host never does any considerable battling until the blackwater other than massacring the 2k Robb sends to their death. Jamies host lays siege to Riverrun and is then taken by surprise by Robb. We only hear that this was a spectacular success for Robb, so we can assume huge losses to he Lannisters (+Jamie gets captured). Also those 30k are never mentioned again, so they are dead / prisoners / scattered. They have reinforcements in the West that Tywin assumes can not hold against Robb, so probably significantly less than 20k They are constantly mentioned to take way more losses than the Starks, and Robb wins every battle against them ("5 dead for every 1 of ours") Also being harassed by the brotherhood, although that probably doesn't impact the numbers much I would give them an initial 60k total (-20k dead / scattered at Riverrun) - unsure number of losses = between 30k - 40k left
Iron Islands - about 6k Said to have 300 ships. Going by Theons ship 20 men per ship = 6k men. We can assume that all their sailors are fighters too.
Tyrell - virtually no numbers, or confusing ones Littlefinger mentions them having "the largest army after Lannister and Stark". This makes little sense since Renly's initial host is supposed to be 100k, which is Tyrells and Stormlands combined (- Stannis).
Stannis - initially has the bigger part of the Royal fleet, which is supposed to be smaller than the Iron fleet (and not all fighters) + the hired pirates. He probably has some Stormland troops loyal to him over his brother as well Let's say he has about 8k initially. He takes over Renlys troops after Renlys death.
The real question is how the 100k in Renlys army are divided into Stormland and Tyrell loyalists. We can only say that Tyrell has at least half or more, since the Tyrell part + the Lannisters beat the Renly part + Stannis at the blackwater.
If we say they split 50/50 and then meet again at the blackwater: We know "thousands" would die on the assault on the city alone. We have little information on the losses after the Tyrell + Lannister army arrives. We can assume from Stannis fanatacism that he wouldn't retreat before another couple of thousands fall. Let's give Stannis 15k losses and the Tyrell army 10k. Stannis can also only retreat with the ships he has left. We don't know what happens to his men who surrendered, let's just assume they are sent home (may be drafted into Tyrell / Lannister, but that would have been mentioned). If we say he loses half his fleet he can take 4k back to Dragonstone.
Totaled that would leave: Lannister: 35k North: 18k Tyrell: 40k Stannis: 4k Greyjoys: 6k
Dany - we have numbers! 8000 Unsullied Unspecified number of untrained Unsullied, let's say 1000 About 40 Dothraki, mostly useless 1 hot interpreter 1 badass Joah Mormont 1 certified super badass Barristan Selmy 3 child dragons
However, of course Danys army is HUGELY better than the thousands of drafted peasants the rest has, even without considering the dragons. The unsullied would most likely cut through Westeros armies twice their numbers. Also: Barristan Selmy.
Also worth considering:
Wildlings: "hundreds and thousands" There is little we know about them other than they count about 100k or more. It is unclear if that includes women, children, elderly. We know the women fight too though.
The Watch: About 700 left Maester Aemon says there is "less than a thousand of us now". Mormont takes 300 beyond the wall, most of which get killed. The ones killed are also mostly rangers, so the most able fighters of the Watch are gone.
Updated troop numbers from S03E05:
North: 18k - 2k (ruse) + Freys - losses - Freys + Riverrun - Karstarks We don't know how many troops Riverrun contributed We can assume the initial Frey troops went home after the Robb wed Talisa We don't know anything about their losses after the initial 2k sacrifice other than that the Lannisters take more Easiest would be to say Riverrun contributed enough to compensate for the losses, so still around 18k left Karstarks march home with "half their forces". This is really confusing as it doesn't make sense that one lesser lord controls half their troops. Maybe he meant half their forces currently at Riverrun, so he would still have the Bolton garrison at Harrenhall. If we say he split up, half his forces at Harrenhall and other places, half at Riverrun, and of those Riverrun troops half march home with Karstark: He took a significant hit, about 5k gone.
Lannisters - significantly more, but never really specified, and confusing troop mentions Initially, they have 60k troops, of which Tywin and Jamie command 30k each. Tywins host never does any considerable battling until the blackwater other than massacring the 2k Robb sends to their death. Jamies host lays siege to Riverrun and is then taken by surprise by Robb. We only hear that this was a spectacular success for Robb, so we can assume huge losses to he Lannisters (+Jamie gets captured). Also those 30k are never mentioned again, so they are dead / prisoners / scattered. They have reinforcements in the West that Tywin assumes can not hold against Robb, so probably significantly less than 20k They are constantly mentioned to take way more losses than the Starks, and Robb wins every battle against them ("5 dead for every 1 of ours") Also being harassed by the brotherhood, although that probably doesn't impact the numbers much I would give them an initial 60k total (-20k dead / scattered at Riverrun) - unsure number of losses = between 30k - 40k left
Iron Islands- about 6k Said to have 300 ships. Going by Theons ship 20 men per ship = 6k men. We can assume that all their sailors are fighters too. It is possible that Theon was given one of the smaller ships so maybe they have more, but very unlikely more than 8-9k.
Tyrell - new numbers, but confusing ones! Littlefinger mentions them having "the largest army after Lannister and Stark". This makes little sense since Renly's initial host is supposed to be 100k, which is Tyrells and Stormlands combined (- Stannis). Lady Olenna: "12k infantry + 1800 cavalry + 2000 support". This seems really, really low. Maybe she was just talking about the troops currently guarding the capital? Some 16k total would be ridiculously low considering what we know about the Renly / Lannister troops. Exact Tyrell numbers remain a mystery and we can only assume the number given in the show are incomplete.
Stannis - initially has the bigger part of the Royal fleet, which is supposed to be smaller than the Iron fleet (and not all fighters) + the hired pirates. He probably has some Stormland troops loyal to him over his brother as well Let's say he has about 8k initially. He takes over Renlys troops after Renlys death.
The real question is how the 100k in Renlys army are divided into Stormland and Tyrell loyalists. We can only say that Tyrell has at least half or more, since the Tyrell part + the Lannisters beat the Renly part + Stannis at the blackwater.
If we say they split 50/50 and then meet again at the blackwater: We know "thousands" would die on the assault on the city alone. We have little information on the losses after the Tyrell + Lannister army arrives. We can assume from Stannis fanatacism that he wouldn't retreat before another couple of thousands fall. Let's give Stannis 15k losses and the Tyrell army 10k. Stannis can also only retreat with the ships he has left. We don't know what happens to his men who surrendered, let's just assume they are sent home (may be drafted into Tyrell / Lannister, but that would have been mentioned). If we say he loses half his fleet he can take 4k back to Dragonstone.
Totaled that would leave: Lannister: 35k North: 13k Tyrell: 40k Stannis: 4k Greyjoys: 6k
Dany - we have numbers! 8000 Unsullied Unspecified number of untrained Unsullied, let's say 1000 About 40 Dothraki, mostly useless 1 hot interpreter 1 badass Joah Mormont 1 certified super badass Barristan Selmy 3 child dragons
However, of course Danys army is HUGELY better than the thousands of drafted peasants the rest has, even without considering the dragons. The unsullied would most likely cut through Westeros armies twice their numbers. Also: Barristan Selmy.
Wildlings - "hundreds and thousands" There is little we know about them other than they count about 100k or more. It is unclear if that includes women, children, elderly. We know the women fight too though.
The Watch - about 700 left Maester Aemon says in S1 there is "less than a thousand of us now". Mormont takes 300 beyond the wall, most of which get killed. The ones killed are also mostly rangers, so the most able fighters of the Watch are gone. Jon claims there are 1000 guarding Castle Black alone. Given the troops numbers we learned about before we can only assume he is lying at this point.
The show continues to give us nonsensical, confusing, and contradictory troops numbers. This is a best effort to give a total of all parties.
Updated troop numbers from S03E06:
North: 18k - 2k (ruse) + Freys - losses + Riverrun - Karstarks We don't know how many troops Riverrun contributed We can assume the initial Frey troops went home after the Robb wed Talisa Freys mention a "continuation" of their alliance. We can only assume their initial troops are still with Robb, and he is asking for more. We still don't know how many Frey contributed in S1 nor how many Robb is asking for now. We don't know anything about their losses after the initial 2k sacrifice other than that the Lannisters take more Easiest would be to say Riverrun contributed enough to compensate for the losses, so still around 18k left Karstarks march home with "half their forces". This is really confusing as it doesn't make sense that one lesser lord controls half their troops. Maybe he meant half their forces currently at Riverrun, so he would still have the Bolton garrison at Harrenhall. If we say he split up, half his forces at Harrenhall and other places, half at Riverrun, and of those Riverrun troops half march home with Karstark: He took a significant hit, about 5k gone.
Lannisters - significantly more, but never really specified, and confusing troop mentions Initially, they have 60k troops, of which Tywin and Jamie command 30k each. Tywins host never does any considerable battling until the blackwater other than massacring the 2k Robb sends to their death. Jamies host lays siege to Riverrun and is then taken by surprise by Robb. We only hear that this was a spectacular success for Robb, so we can assume huge losses to he Lannisters (+Jamie gets captured). Also those 30k are never mentioned again, so they are dead / prisoners / scattered. They have reinforcements in the West that Tywin assumes can not hold against Robb, so probably significantly less than 20k They are constantly mentioned to take way more losses than the Starks, and Robb wins every battle against them ("5 dead for every 1 of ours") Also being harassed by the brotherhood, although that probably doesn't impact the numbers much I would give them an initial 60k total (-20k dead / scattered at Riverrun) - unsure number of losses = between 30k - 40k left
Iron Islands- about 6k Said to have 300 ships. Going by Theons ship 20 men per ship = 6k men. We can assume that all their sailors are fighters too. It is possible that Theon was given one of the smaller ships so maybe they have more, but very unlikely more than 8-9k.
Tyrell - new numbers, but confusing ones! Littlefinger mentions them having "the largest army after Lannister and Stark". This makes little sense since Renly's initial host is supposed to be 100k, which is Tyrells and Stormlands combined (- Stannis). Lady Olenna: "12k infantry + 1800 cavalry + 2000 support". This seems really, really low. Maybe she was just talking about the troops currently guarding the capital? Some 16k total would be ridiculously low considering what we know about the Renly / Lannister troops. Exact Tyrell numbers remain a mystery and we can only assume the number given in the show are incomplete.
Stannis - initially has the bigger part of the Royal fleet, which is supposed to be smaller than the Iron fleet (and not all fighters) + the hired pirates. He probably has some Stormland troops loyal to him over his brother as well Let's say he has about 8k initially. He takes over Renlys troops after Renlys death.
The real question is how the 100k in Renlys army are divided into Stormland and Tyrell loyalists. We can only say that Tyrell has at least half or more, since the Tyrell part + the Lannisters beat the Renly part + Stannis at the blackwater.
If we say they split 50/50 and then meet again at the blackwater: We know "thousands" would die on the assault on the city alone. We have little information on the losses after the Tyrell + Lannister army arrives. We can assume from Stannis fanatacism that he wouldn't retreat before another couple of thousands fall. Let's give Stannis 15k losses and the Tyrell army 10k. Stannis can also only retreat with the ships he has left. We don't know what happens to his men who surrendered, let's just assume they are sent home (may be drafted into Tyrell / Lannister, but that would have been mentioned). If we say he loses half his fleet he can take 4k back to Dragonstone.
Totaled that would leave: Lannister: 35k North: 15k Tyrell: 40k Stannis: 4k Greyjoys: 6k
Dany - we have numbers! 8000 Unsullied Unspecified number of untrained Unsullied, let's say 1000 About 40 Dothraki, mostly useless 1 hot interpreter 1 badass Joah Mormont 1 certified super badass Barristan Selmy 3 child dragons
However, of course Danys army is HUGELY better than the thousands of drafted peasants the rest has, even without considering the dragons. The unsullied would most likely cut through Westeros armies twice their numbers. Also: Barristan Selmy.
Wildlings - "hundreds and thousands" There is little we know about them other than they count about 100k or more. It is unclear if that includes women, children, elderly. We know the women fight too though.
The Watch - about 700 left Maester Aemon says in S1 there is "less than a thousand of us now". Mormont takes 300 beyond the wall, most of which get killed. The ones killed are also mostly rangers, so the most able fighters of the Watch are gone. Jon claims there are 1000 guarding Castle Black alone. Given the troops numbers we learned about before we can only assume he is lying at this point.
The show continues to give us nonsensical, confusing, and contradictory troops numbers. This is a best effort to give a total of all parties.
Total troop numbers are in large parts speculation where the show doesn't give us numbers or definite information about what happened with certain contingents like the Freys or Jamie's Lannister host.
EPT
