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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 03 2013 06:08 ecstazy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 05:43 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:My alignment sheet so farIt's interesting to see how many people are morally ambiguous but for all intents and purposes maintain a polite outward appearance, especially the nobles. The "good" tend to have to settle for less polite ways to stay alive, and are split between neutral and lawful. Also the "chaotic" column seems to almost be devoid of nobles sans Joffrey and Arya, both children. Expected but it's cool to see on paper. I think Jorah Mormont is true neutral. Baristan Selmy is lawful good. Hodor is probably chaotic good. I'm not sure if Theon and Cersei are actually evil - they are just idiots who got themselves in a terrible position and then tried to get out with some immoral decision making (in Cersei's case quite successfully). Kid who jesus'd theon is probably chaotic evil - random guard killing. Melisandre might not be evil - we just don't really know much about her. I agree with the rest - nice sheet. Edit: oh yeah - also Jaime is Chaotic - screwing his sister, killing a king and attacking the Hand of the King on the streets is not particularly lawful.
I disagree with Jorah Mormont being good. His only motivation so far are his own feelings (namely love for Dany). He was also a spy for King Robert. Misusing the trust of others for his personal gain.
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On May 03 2013 05:43 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:My alignment sheet so farIt's interesting to see how many people are morally ambiguous but for all intents and purposes maintain a polite outward appearance, especially the nobles. The "good" tend to have to settle for less polite ways to stay alive, and are split between neutral and lawful. Also the "chaotic" column seems to almost be devoid of nobles sans Joffrey and Arya, both children. Expected but it's cool to see on paper.
Out of curiosity, what went into your decision to label Melisandre Lawful Evil?
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Sorry bout that, got Mormont and Selmy mixed up. Selmy is now NG and Mormont is TN
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On May 03 2013 06:56 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 05:43 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:My alignment sheet so farIt's interesting to see how many people are morally ambiguous but for all intents and purposes maintain a polite outward appearance, especially the nobles. The "good" tend to have to settle for less polite ways to stay alive, and are split between neutral and lawful. Also the "chaotic" column seems to almost be devoid of nobles sans Joffrey and Arya, both children. Expected but it's cool to see on paper. Out of curiosity, what went into your decision to label Melisandre Lawful Evil?
Melisandre seems to be some sort of death priestess (compare her following of the Lord of Light to the Brotherhood's, she seems to enjoy the death aspect of it a lot more), but is still outwardly supporting Stannis and his right to the throne. This one might change if we got some more looking into Melisandre.
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On May 03 2013 06:56 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 05:43 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:My alignment sheet so farIt's interesting to see how many people are morally ambiguous but for all intents and purposes maintain a polite outward appearance, especially the nobles. The "good" tend to have to settle for less polite ways to stay alive, and are split between neutral and lawful. Also the "chaotic" column seems to almost be devoid of nobles sans Joffrey and Arya, both children. Expected but it's cool to see on paper. Out of curiosity, what went into your decision to label Melisandre Lawful Evil?
I suspect her religious organizations rules also count as "laws".
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On May 03 2013 06:42 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 04:35 jcarlsoniv wrote:On May 03 2013 03:41 Acertos wrote:
In season 1, Ned and Jamie talked with each-other when they were in the thrown room.
Jamie killed the mad king just before he was going to be judged and captured, he waited for the last moment and that's what Ned reproached him along with breaking his oath. If he thought the king was a bad one, he should have joined the rebellion or try to defend Ned's father and brother when they got burned. Jaime was a man of the Kingsguard. He was sworn to serve any king that came along. Even Ser Barristan said as much in the last episode - he had to serve a mad king, a drunk king, he just wants to serve a king that he believes in. Jaime couldn't really just up and leave the king's side. Then he would still have been considered an oath breaker, and Ned STILL wouldn't have wanted Jaime on the side of the rebellion. Ned and Robert and all the rebels swore oaths to the king too. I think he would of been ok with breaking oaths assuming there were particular grounds that validated it, i.e burning innoncents alive.
Swearing allegiance to the throne is different than swearing a solemn oath to protect one man, regardless of circumstances.
Ned and Robert swore allegiance to the throne to the extent that they would do good for the realm. However, once they saw that Aerys was mad and being destructive to the realm, they did something about it.
Jaime was part of the 7 men sworn to the gods to protect "the king" - their duty is to defend the one who sits the Iron Throne with their lives. Jaime betrayed that oath by killing the mad king. However, were he to abandon his post and fight with the rebellion, that would have been equally as treacherous (at least, I'm sure, in Ned's eyes). It was kind of a catch 22 - stand his post and watch the mad king burn the entire city, kill the mad king to save everyone but be chastised for killing the man he has to protect, or abandon his post and be a deserter.
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All these alignment attempts do is show that the characters are too complex and their true intentions are not obvious, so these aligments never make sense.
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On May 03 2013 06:58 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:56 farvacola wrote:On May 03 2013 05:43 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:My alignment sheet so farIt's interesting to see how many people are morally ambiguous but for all intents and purposes maintain a polite outward appearance, especially the nobles. The "good" tend to have to settle for less polite ways to stay alive, and are split between neutral and lawful. Also the "chaotic" column seems to almost be devoid of nobles sans Joffrey and Arya, both children. Expected but it's cool to see on paper. Out of curiosity, what went into your decision to label Melisandre Lawful Evil? Melisandre seems to be some sort of death priestess (compare her following of the Lord of Light to the Brotherhood's, she seems to enjoy the death aspect of it a lot more), but is still outwardly supporting Stannis and his right to the throne. This one might change if we got some more looking into Melisandre.
On May 03 2013 06:58 Doppelganger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:56 farvacola wrote:On May 03 2013 05:43 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:My alignment sheet so farIt's interesting to see how many people are morally ambiguous but for all intents and purposes maintain a polite outward appearance, especially the nobles. The "good" tend to have to settle for less polite ways to stay alive, and are split between neutral and lawful. Also the "chaotic" column seems to almost be devoid of nobles sans Joffrey and Arya, both children. Expected but it's cool to see on paper. Out of curiosity, what went into your decision to label Melisandre Lawful Evil? I suspect her religious organizations rules also count as "laws".
That makes sense, thanks 
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Let say if I would be the leader of rebellion. I would spare all who fought as ordered, surrendered when facing bad odds. I would be executing traitors of enemy side and own side. Enemy side rebelling against their lords warrants head chop off (assuming they win and surrender or help your cause).
That because now everybody knows if you go against your own lords then you die too. Less chances that they do that. If not then they might do that again if given prize for it.
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Jaime's choice was an impossible one, there is no way you can judge him with a straight face. His choices were two bowls of shit, he chose the bowl that in the end, most would choose. What's interesting is that he has never told this to anyone, how he has endured the spite from people for so long while the truth was very redeeming for him, even Brienne who hates his guts and spits on him for all he has done and what he stands for feels sympathy for him. In fact she is shocked at the reveal.
I even think Ser Barristan would have made the same choice that Jaime did, and that says a lot.
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On May 03 2013 07:01 TigerKarl wrote:
All these alignment attempts do is show that the characters are too complex and their true intentions are not obvious, so these aligments never make sense.
And we will see in the future that these alignments will undergo varies shifts.
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Shift a little bit now but what does Lord Varys really want? Has something going with Targaryen (or had). Wanted to get that sorcerer badly. But what does motivate him now? Cant have kids and has said to "serve realm" but why?
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On May 03 2013 07:08 unkkz wrote:
Jaime's choice was an impossible one, there is no way you can judge him with a straight face. His choices were two bowls of shit, he chose the bowl that in the end, most would choose. What's interesting is that he has never told this to anyone, how he has endured the spite from people for so long while the truth was very redeeming for him, even Brienne who hates his guts and spits on him for all he has done and what he stands for feels sympathy for him. In fact she is shocked at the reveal.
I even think Ser Barristan would have made the same choice that Jaime did, and that says a lot.
I dont understand why everybody is so surprised. He wasnt called MAD king for no reason right? Like he didnt do everyone a favor by killing him? So hes almost a good guy..if it wasnt for the bran thingy..
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On May 03 2013 07:09 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 07:01 TigerKarl wrote:
All these alignment attempts do is show that the characters are too complex and their true intentions are not obvious, so these aligments never make sense. And we will see in the future that these alignments will undergo varies shifts.
That doesn't change the fact that they will never be correct. It's wasted energy to put this simplistic concept of alignments over complex characters.
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On May 03 2013 07:15 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Shift a little bit now but what does Lord Varys really want? Has something going with Targaryen (or had). Wanted to get that sorcerer badly. But what does motivate him now? Cant have kids and has said to "serve realm" but why?
I mean, he has always said he lives to serve the realm. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have personal vendettas as well, right?
That sorcerer fucked his life - for better or worse. He wanted to get back.
Varys is a very intelligent politician (as is Baelish, although I feel like Varys is better at keeping his personal feelings outside of his work). He seems to do what he truly believes will be best for the greater good.
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On May 03 2013 05:43 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:My alignment sheet so farIt's interesting to see how many people are morally ambiguous but for all intents and purposes maintain a polite outward appearance, especially the nobles. The "good" tend to have to settle for less polite ways to stay alive, and are split between neutral and lawful. Also the "chaotic" column seems to almost be devoid of nobles sans Joffrey and Arya, both children. Expected but it's cool to see on paper.
I don't think it works because GoT is too realistic and DnD alignments are too "classical fantasy".
I disagree with every evil assignment except two, and that is probably for philosophical reasons that are not about the be reconciled.
From the other areas the two that strike me as highly odd are Sandor and Barristan. How is a man who loves killing and violence good? How is one of the iconic knight in shining armor, hopelessly honorable paragon of the types of fairy tales Sansa used to believe in, who stuck to his duty even when he didn't think so much of the kings he served, not Lawful?
I'm almost as disinclined to use the LG tag as I am to use any of the E tags, but one who I don't hesitate to put there is Barristan.
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I guess cos, Stannis lost pretty much all of his army at Blackwater. He's back to where he was before, even worse, I think. Robb isn't withdrawing to the North because the Riverlands are also part of his kingdom and as he said, he wouldn't be able to get his bannermen south again to defend the Riverlands. Yes, he does plan on enforcing it by winning lots of victories, ala Hannibal, seeing as Renly is dead and Stannis wouldn't accept an independant North.
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On May 03 2013 07:15 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Shift a little bit now but what does Lord Varys really want? Has something going with Targaryen (or had). Wanted to get that sorcerer badly. But what does motivate him now? Cant have kids and has said to "serve realm" but why?
I feel like Varys is the only guy actually working for the good of the people.
Not for glory, not for power but just because its the right thing to do.
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On May 03 2013 06:00 PerryHooter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 05:34 Aegon I wrote:
Anyway, what the **** is Stannis doing exactly? Wasn't Rennly supposed to have had an army 100,000 strong, most of whom defected to his brother after his death? Even if Stannis lost half his force in that siege, which must have been unlikely, he should still have probably the most sizeable army of all. And why isn't Robb withdrawing to the North to defend his realm on his home-ground with the aid of winter? What if his banner men don't want to march south again afterwards? I have not understood what has been his strategic goal in this war exactly. Politically he wants to be recognised as a king, right, but militarily how does he intend to enforce that on whoever sits on the throne in King's Landing? By winning so many crushing victories on the battlefield that his enemies run out of troops, ala Hannibal? A large part of Renly's army, I think about half, was Tyrell supporters, which were won over to the Lannister side with the aid of Littlefinger. And the reason the Starks went to war in the first place was to free Ned, as he died it became more of extracting revenge, dethroning the false king Joffrey and as a "side quest" (lol) to free Sansa and Arya. Robb has said himself that he doesn't want to become king himself, and that he has no plan on what to do once they've won (Talisa asked him about it in one episode). What confused me was why Robb didn't side with Stannis during season 2 (or Renly for that matter), despite Stannis having the best claim to the throne aswell as being supported by Ned before he was killed (for instance Ned only informed Stannis of Jaime being the real father of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen). It makes no sense to me why the Starks didn't unite forces with either Baratheon.
Watch episode's 1 and 2 of season 2.
"Bran can't be lord of Winterfell before me" "Renly's not right" yadda yadda mumble mumble , then Umber stands up and declares the King in the North.
Seems like the Northern lords were only really opposed to having Rob declare for Renly.
It's basically Stannis that "sides" "against" Rob. "And let him steal the Northern half of my Kingdom?" "All thieves" etc.
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On May 03 2013 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 07:15 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Shift a little bit now but what does Lord Varys really want? Has something going with Targaryen (or had). Wanted to get that sorcerer badly. But what does motivate him now? Cant have kids and has said to "serve realm" but why? I feel like Varys is the only guy actually working for the good of the people. Not for glory, not for power but just because its the right thing to do.
yea and little finger seems to be the exact opposite. he works entirely for himself, every action calculated.
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EPT
