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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far.
Thats one of the reasons this show is awesome, there is people that dont just do the right thing, but they do stuff that benefit themself.
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On May 23 2012 01:20 OrchidThief wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:12 Cedstick wrote:
I'm going to enjoy watching this thread over the following seasons, for those who haven't read the books. Get the popcorn - this'll be better drama than the actual series. At this point I fully expect the series to kill off half the original/present characters in the coming seasons. I'm really fine with it. It definitely surprised me when they killed off Eddard Stark in season one, but that also made me go "oh it's on of those shows, awesome". If nothing is sacred then you have no expectations on an outcome turning out well for the "hero", and so the story is way more free to evolve in whatever direction. The best shows of the last decade has done this, that's a large part of the reason why they've become the best shows of the last decade.
Yeah it's an interesting move overall. When thinking in (American) movie terms, you usually only see the hero die in the end, with slow motion and epic music. I'm thinking of Braveheart and Gladiator to name a few.
It's an interesting move though. Before his capture he was the clear center piece of the story. I get the feeling he had by far the most screen time, and the other stories were far from as developed as his.
On May 22 2012 20:04 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 19:58 Geen wrote:
The one thing I really disliked about this episode was the dragon-mother storyline. (really bad w/ names). I was expecting her to at least go to the house of the dead/damned? this episode, esp after the quick recap at the start showed that scene again. I enjoy all the other storylines, but the dragon story line has been pretty shit in season 2 so far imo. I kinda liked her storyline before (no not because of her sex scenes....okay a little bit) but now, it seems that she doesnt do anything and everyone around her is doing it, she just seems to wait/ walked around talking then somethings happens and shes like what?! 0_0 oh god! grrr... I"M MOTHER OF DRAGONS. end scene then thats it... which has me losing intrest in her part.
I completely agree with this. She's not actually done anything of note since season 1.
She walked through the desert, when she came to the city she was rude and started yelling again, and got saved by the black guy. Since then she's been chilling around there and done her best to piss off everyone by being rude and screaming name, titles and family tree followed by the by now somewhat edgeless 'mother of dragons'...
She's pretty much at the point of dislike I had for her brother earlier in the series.. They're both acting the same way at this point.
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ever since drogo died, the khalessi/dragon arc has been sucking. bring on some white walker action. that irish chick is hot. i know more than jon snow bros.
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On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far.
From what I understand of the Dark/Medieval ages (of which the vast majority of fantasy fiction pays homage), selfishness, violence, and betrayal were standard conduct, as practically the entire western world was mired in chaos.
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On May 23 2012 03:28 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far. From what I understand of the Dark/Medieval ages (of which the vast majority of fantasy fiction pays homage), selfishness, violence, and betrayal were standard conduct, as practically the entire western world was mired in chaos.
This is correct, and while there were times of peace, where a 'good king' or what-have-you would rule for a time, this story is not set in one of those times. It's set in the opposite of that kind of time in fact.
I support the couple changes from the books that have happened so far, and believe they have made the narrative better overall, as well as giving those who have read the books some scenes that are spot on from the books, while still being able to be surprised.
I'm really beginning to like the Jaime scenes in the show, his banter is top notch, and it shows through that him and Tyrion are brothers, though worlds apart in other ways.
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On May 23 2012 01:54 RainSunShowers wrote:
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks.
That is because they wrote the history books. Historically, I'd say the ruling class have been quite dysfunctional in Europe.
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On May 22 2012 23:04 hooahah wrote:
Also, as for the White Knight that 'killed' Syrio - the Knight was fully armed, Syrio had a wooden sword. Yeah, give Syrio a proper gear and he'd wreck the knight.
Syrio didn't die, did you see him die? No. Did you see his head on a spike in King's Landing next to Ned Stark or the Septa? No. Syrio is alive.
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Just started yesterday. Got to the 7th episode (one plus side of being really sick  ).
Love this show, and the Dath'Raki are awesome. Basically they're just Mongolians.
The one thing that does confuse me though is the astounding engineering and artwork for a society that still uses swords and bows. For example, the main castle, the death-hole in that sky fortress place, and the elevator on the wall.
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Canada11372 Posts
On May 23 2012 03:28 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far. From what I understand of the Dark/Medieval ages (of which the vast majority of fantasy fiction pays homage), selfishness, violence, and betrayal were standard conduct, as practically the entire western world was mired in chaos.
Also what we know from the Middle Ages is typically told through the writers of either the Renaissance or else the Enlightenment both of which had a pretty low view of Medieval Europe. For instance the whole "flat earth" notion is a rather modern 'retcon' if you will.
I'm sure you'd find equal amounts of mercy and petty vengeance, love and hate, justice and injustice, joy and despair, truth and lies in historical humans as you do now. It's just that modern story telling sees petty vengeance, hate, injustice, despair, and liees as more realistic than mercy, love, justice, joy, and truth. Despite both existing in real life.
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On May 23 2012 07:52 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 03:28 farvacola wrote:On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far. From what I understand of the Dark/Medieval ages (of which the vast majority of fantasy fiction pays homage), selfishness, violence, and betrayal were standard conduct, as practically the entire western world was mired in chaos. Also what we know from the Middle Ages is typically told through the writers of either the Renaissance or else the Enlightenment both of which had a pretty low view of Medieval Europe. For instance the whole "flat earth" notion is a rather modern 'retcon' if you will. I'm sure you'd find equal amounts of mercy and petty vengeance, love and hate, justice and injustice, joy and despair, truth and lies in historical humans as you do now. It's just that modern story telling sees petty vengeance, hate, injustice, despair, and liees as more realistic than mercy, love, justice, joy, and truth. Despite both existing in real life.
Thanks, this is basically my point. We have every reason to believe that most people in those times were pretty similar in terms of morality to us nowadays. There are plenty of dickheads but there are also plenty of solid people and a few who stick to their duty. Most psychology tests show that people are generally selfish but not generally cruel or mean without provocation. Of course Joffrey perfectly represents the corruption of a ruling class like some of the roman emperors. But there were also many fair and at least not cock-ish rulers in the middle ages and dark ages. For every caligula and nero there was a marcus aurelius or an Augustus Caesar.
George RR Martin seems to have this strangely warped view of history, thinking that the only people who ever survived being rulers in those days were the ones with vast networks of spies and assassins and who stabbed everyone possible in the back. There were plenty of rulers who gained fame and amassed allies by being fair and honest, and managed to avoid being murdered or captured, like what seems to be happening to anyone who shows any sign of mercy or temperance in this show.
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You can complain about the lack of consistency and changes from the books, but the way that Peter Dinklage reads out the "I will hurt you for this..." line honestly wipes that all away; i'm a total novel elitist having read all... 7(?) of the books but I still think that was incredible. Dinklage is a fucking hero.
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On May 23 2012 07:37 TALegion wrote:Just started yesterday. Got to the 7th episode (one plus side of being really sick ). Love this show, and the Dath'Raki are awesome. Basically they're just Mongolians. The one thing that does confuse me though is the astounding engineering and artwork for a society that still uses swords and bows. For example, the main castle, the death-hole in that sky fortress place, and the elevator on the wall.
There was once magic in that world..
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On May 23 2012 08:36 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:52 Falling wrote:On May 23 2012 03:28 farvacola wrote:On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far. From what I understand of the Dark/Medieval ages (of which the vast majority of fantasy fiction pays homage), selfishness, violence, and betrayal were standard conduct, as practically the entire western world was mired in chaos. Also what we know from the Middle Ages is typically told through the writers of either the Renaissance or else the Enlightenment both of which had a pretty low view of Medieval Europe. For instance the whole "flat earth" notion is a rather modern 'retcon' if you will. I'm sure you'd find equal amounts of mercy and petty vengeance, love and hate, justice and injustice, joy and despair, truth and lies in historical humans as you do now. It's just that modern story telling sees petty vengeance, hate, injustice, despair, and liees as more realistic than mercy, love, justice, joy, and truth. Despite both existing in real life. Thanks, this is basically my point. We have every reason to believe that most people in those times were pretty similar in terms of morality to us nowadays. There are plenty of dickheads but there are also plenty of solid people and a few who stick to their duty. Most psychology tests show that people are generally selfish but not generally cruel or mean without provocation. Of course Joffrey perfectly represents the corruption of a ruling class like some of the roman emperors. But there were also many fair and at least not cock-ish rulers in the middle ages and dark ages. For every caligula and nero there was a marcus aurelius or an Augustus Caesar. George RR Martin seems to have this strangely warped view of history, thinking that the only people who ever survived being rulers in those days were the ones with vast networks of spies and assassins and who stabbed everyone possible in the back. There were plenty of rulers who gained fame and amassed allies by being fair and honest, and managed to avoid being murdered or captured, like what seems to be happening to anyone who shows any sign of mercy or temperance in this show.
Sure, not everyone is a dick (for example sir barristan, Ned, Danaerys, Robb) but if the world was ruled by these nice people then... well... he wouldn't have written the books about that period, duh.
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On May 23 2012 08:36 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:52 Falling wrote:On May 23 2012 03:28 farvacola wrote:On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far. From what I understand of the Dark/Medieval ages (of which the vast majority of fantasy fiction pays homage), selfishness, violence, and betrayal were standard conduct, as practically the entire western world was mired in chaos. Also what we know from the Middle Ages is typically told through the writers of either the Renaissance or else the Enlightenment both of which had a pretty low view of Medieval Europe. For instance the whole "flat earth" notion is a rather modern 'retcon' if you will. I'm sure you'd find equal amounts of mercy and petty vengeance, love and hate, justice and injustice, joy and despair, truth and lies in historical humans as you do now. It's just that modern story telling sees petty vengeance, hate, injustice, despair, and liees as more realistic than mercy, love, justice, joy, and truth. Despite both existing in real life. Thanks, this is basically my point. We have every reason to believe that most people in those times were pretty similar in terms of morality to us nowadays. There are plenty of dickheads but there are also plenty of solid people and a few who stick to their duty. Most psychology tests show that people are generally selfish but not generally cruel or mean without provocation. Of course Joffrey perfectly represents the corruption of a ruling class like some of the roman emperors. But there were also many fair and at least not cock-ish rulers in the middle ages and dark ages. For every caligula and nero there was a marcus aurelius or an Augustus Caesar. George RR Martin seems to have this strangely warped view of history, thinking that the only people who ever survived being rulers in those days were the ones with vast networks of spies and assassins and who stabbed everyone possible in the back. There were plenty of rulers who gained fame and amassed allies by being fair and honest, and managed to avoid being murdered or captured, like what seems to be happening to anyone who shows any sign of mercy or temperance in this show.
Remember this is a lookin on just a small section of westeros history, but somehow you want to compare it back to yet another small example of real history. The TV show has yet to show you much of the reach or dorne. The vale via Lysa's governing is staying out of the war and remains free from the destruction in this show.
To GRRM the good guy being good and going on this epic quest to save the world and surviving is humdrum. People look out for #1 especially in medieval times, and some people are complete psychopathes that end up with power(joffrey).
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On May 23 2012 08:41 Mattacate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:36 sc4k wrote:On May 23 2012 07:52 Falling wrote:On May 23 2012 03:28 farvacola wrote:On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far. From what I understand of the Dark/Medieval ages (of which the vast majority of fantasy fiction pays homage), selfishness, violence, and betrayal were standard conduct, as practically the entire western world was mired in chaos. Also what we know from the Middle Ages is typically told through the writers of either the Renaissance or else the Enlightenment both of which had a pretty low view of Medieval Europe. For instance the whole "flat earth" notion is a rather modern 'retcon' if you will. I'm sure you'd find equal amounts of mercy and petty vengeance, love and hate, justice and injustice, joy and despair, truth and lies in historical humans as you do now. It's just that modern story telling sees petty vengeance, hate, injustice, despair, and liees as more realistic than mercy, love, justice, joy, and truth. Despite both existing in real life. Thanks, this is basically my point. We have every reason to believe that most people in those times were pretty similar in terms of morality to us nowadays. There are plenty of dickheads but there are also plenty of solid people and a few who stick to their duty. Most psychology tests show that people are generally selfish but not generally cruel or mean without provocation. Of course Joffrey perfectly represents the corruption of a ruling class like some of the roman emperors. But there were also many fair and at least not cock-ish rulers in the middle ages and dark ages. For every caligula and nero there was a marcus aurelius or an Augustus Caesar. George RR Martin seems to have this strangely warped view of history, thinking that the only people who ever survived being rulers in those days were the ones with vast networks of spies and assassins and who stabbed everyone possible in the back. There were plenty of rulers who gained fame and amassed allies by being fair and honest, and managed to avoid being murdered or captured, like what seems to be happening to anyone who shows any sign of mercy or temperance in this show. Sure, not everyone is a dick (for example sir barristan, Ned, Danaerys, Robb) but if the world was ruled by these nice people then... well... he wouldn't have written the books about that period, duh.
Nah it's more my point that almost everyone who is NOT a dick is a complete fool who gets killed or outwitted. I guess Rob stark and Tywin Lannister are two exceptions but we'll see how GRRM treats them. I hope that he will show a few evil/ unjust/ unfair people getting what historically often befell people who were unhinged or poor quality people ie being killed rather than just having everyone who is evil triumphing over everyone who is even remotely un-evil!
On May 23 2012 08:51 Abysus wrote:
To GRRM the good guy being good and going on this epic quest to save the world and surviving is humdrum. People look out for #1 especially in medieval times, and some people are complete psychopathes that end up with power(joffrey).
Yeah I get this. I think a lot of GRRM fans are somehow assuming I am an idiot with no understanding of his desire to be a deep storyteller who provides a profound reflection of human reality. I am familiar with the fact that not every person in history was a virtuous hero questing selflessly. It's not like GRRM has done ANYTHING even remotely innovative here. Just read Homer's Illiad and watch how many times the 'heroes' show they are motivated by personal desires far more than selfless duty. I just think the story so far is too cynical and therefore suffers from actually being unrealistic...
Although yeah I accept that I haven't seen much of the story and perhaps it will change.
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On May 23 2012 08:56 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:41 Mattacate wrote:On May 23 2012 08:36 sc4k wrote:On May 23 2012 07:52 Falling wrote:On May 23 2012 03:28 farvacola wrote:On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far. From what I understand of the Dark/Medieval ages (of which the vast majority of fantasy fiction pays homage), selfishness, violence, and betrayal were standard conduct, as practically the entire western world was mired in chaos. Also what we know from the Middle Ages is typically told through the writers of either the Renaissance or else the Enlightenment both of which had a pretty low view of Medieval Europe. For instance the whole "flat earth" notion is a rather modern 'retcon' if you will. I'm sure you'd find equal amounts of mercy and petty vengeance, love and hate, justice and injustice, joy and despair, truth and lies in historical humans as you do now. It's just that modern story telling sees petty vengeance, hate, injustice, despair, and liees as more realistic than mercy, love, justice, joy, and truth. Despite both existing in real life. Thanks, this is basically my point. We have every reason to believe that most people in those times were pretty similar in terms of morality to us nowadays. There are plenty of dickheads but there are also plenty of solid people and a few who stick to their duty. Most psychology tests show that people are generally selfish but not generally cruel or mean without provocation. Of course Joffrey perfectly represents the corruption of a ruling class like some of the roman emperors. But there were also many fair and at least not cock-ish rulers in the middle ages and dark ages. For every caligula and nero there was a marcus aurelius or an Augustus Caesar. George RR Martin seems to have this strangely warped view of history, thinking that the only people who ever survived being rulers in those days were the ones with vast networks of spies and assassins and who stabbed everyone possible in the back. There were plenty of rulers who gained fame and amassed allies by being fair and honest, and managed to avoid being murdered or captured, like what seems to be happening to anyone who shows any sign of mercy or temperance in this show. Sure, not everyone is a dick (for example sir barristan, Ned, Danaerys, Robb) but if the world was ruled by these nice people then... well... he wouldn't have written the books about that period, duh. Nah it's more my point that almost everyone who is NOT a dick is a complete fool who gets killed or outwitted. I guess Rob stark and Tywin Lannister are two exceptions but we'll see how GRRM treats them. I hope that he will show a few evil/ unjust/ unfair people getting what historically often befell people who were unhinged or poor quality people ie being killed rather than just having everyone who is evil triumphing over everyone who is even remotely un-evil!
I sense a bit of a whoosh. I always felt that one of the major purposes of the series was to examine the descent of morality in a desperate world and how some people opt to maintain honour and die while some cling to life and forsake morality. You seem to totally miss some pretty major points. People like ned start aren't fools getting outwitted. They are choosing to die or risk their life because they place a higher importance on honour and duty than personal well-being. It might not be blatant, but that's at the core of it.
If you approach the subject from the perspective that anyone not fighitng to survive at all times is 'stupid', then I suppose they are 'stupid', but I think that's an unfortunate way to look at this incredibly complicated tragedy George RR Martin has created.
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did anyone here watch the UK Skins / has anyone realized yet that Gendry is Chris?
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Last week's Ep made it seem like Tyrion and Cersei were getting closer to each other and resolving their differences but this week's Ep blows all that away...
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This next upcoming episode has the potential to be epic. BATTLE WILL COMMENCE... says the HBO ad.
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Austin10833 Posts
On May 23 2012 08:56 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:41 Mattacate wrote:On May 23 2012 08:36 sc4k wrote:On May 23 2012 07:52 Falling wrote:On May 23 2012 03:28 farvacola wrote:On May 23 2012 01:34 sc4k wrote:
Really enjoyed this last episode. Although didn't like how many times the word cunt was said lol. The sex scene was actually fairly tasteful. The one problem I have with this whole series is the focus that GRR Martin seems to be completely obsessed with the concept of people betraying each other and being terrible to each other. He seems to think that in this sort of world the only way you can survive is horrifically betraying everyone you know and that anyone who tries to be in any way decent and fair will get stabbed in the back and killed before they can say the word 'mercy'.
I think it is far too cynical and unrealistic, many people in history did very well without being complete cocks. So far the only characters who seem to have any morality and at the same time are able to survive are rob stark and tyrion. Almost every other character displays either a psychopathic lack of sympathy or is portrayed as a loveable but trusting fool who is bound to be fucked by an evil person (ie Jon Snow). At least this opinion is based off what I have seen so far. From what I understand of the Dark/Medieval ages (of which the vast majority of fantasy fiction pays homage), selfishness, violence, and betrayal were standard conduct, as practically the entire western world was mired in chaos. Also what we know from the Middle Ages is typically told through the writers of either the Renaissance or else the Enlightenment both of which had a pretty low view of Medieval Europe. For instance the whole "flat earth" notion is a rather modern 'retcon' if you will. I'm sure you'd find equal amounts of mercy and petty vengeance, love and hate, justice and injustice, joy and despair, truth and lies in historical humans as you do now. It's just that modern story telling sees petty vengeance, hate, injustice, despair, and liees as more realistic than mercy, love, justice, joy, and truth. Despite both existing in real life. Thanks, this is basically my point. We have every reason to believe that most people in those times were pretty similar in terms of morality to us nowadays. There are plenty of dickheads but there are also plenty of solid people and a few who stick to their duty. Most psychology tests show that people are generally selfish but not generally cruel or mean without provocation. Of course Joffrey perfectly represents the corruption of a ruling class like some of the roman emperors. But there were also many fair and at least not cock-ish rulers in the middle ages and dark ages. For every caligula and nero there was a marcus aurelius or an Augustus Caesar. George RR Martin seems to have this strangely warped view of history, thinking that the only people who ever survived being rulers in those days were the ones with vast networks of spies and assassins and who stabbed everyone possible in the back. There were plenty of rulers who gained fame and amassed allies by being fair and honest, and managed to avoid being murdered or captured, like what seems to be happening to anyone who shows any sign of mercy or temperance in this show. Sure, not everyone is a dick (for example sir barristan, Ned, Danaerys, Robb) but if the world was ruled by these nice people then... well... he wouldn't have written the books about that period, duh. Nah it's more my point that almost everyone who is NOT a dick is a complete fool who gets killed or outwitted. I guess Rob stark and Tywin Lannister are two exceptions but we'll see how GRRM treats them. I hope that he will show a few evil/ unjust/ unfair people getting what historically often befell people who were unhinged or poor quality people ie being killed rather than just having everyone who is evil triumphing over everyone who is even remotely un-evil! Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:51 Abysus wrote:
To GRRM the good guy being good and going on this epic quest to save the world and surviving is humdrum. People look out for #1 especially in medieval times, and some people are complete psychopathes that end up with power(joffrey).
Yeah I get this. I think a lot of GRRM fans are somehow assuming I am an idiot with no understanding of his desire to be a deep storyteller who provides a profound reflection of human reality. I am familiar with the fact that not every person in history was a virtuous hero questing selflessly. It's not like GRRM has done ANYTHING even remotely innovative here. Just read Homer's Illiad and watch how many times the 'heroes' show they are motivated by personal desires far more than selfless duty. I just think the story so far is too cynical and therefore suffers from actually being unrealistic... Although yeah I accept that I haven't seen much of the story and perhaps it will change.
I don't know why you feel like you need to constantly champion your own intellect here, but regardless, you're operating under a false premise. Namely that "We have every reason to believe that most people in those times were pretty similar in terms of morality to us nowadays." We actually don't. Please don't just take educated guesses and proclaim them truths.
For example, from the British Journal of Criminology, German/Swiss civilian homicide rates through the centuries
![[image loading]](http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/30/mordrate_deutschland.jpg)
source
+ Show Spoiler [abstract] +The present paper examines secular trends of homicide rates by means of a systematic re‐analysis of all available quantitative studies on pre‐modern homicide. The results confirm, first, that homicide rates have declined in Europe over several centuries. Second, the empirical evidence shows, that unequivocal decline began in the early seventeenth century. Third, the data indicate that the secular decline begins with the pioneers of the modernization process, England and Holland, and slowly encompasses further regions.
These findings corroborate much of the civilizing process framework proposed by Norbert Elias. Yet, the diffusion of self‐control was sustained not only by compliance to the state monopoly of power but by a variety of disciplining institutional arrangements. This includes, for example, the early expansion of schools, particularly in Northern Europe, the rise of religious reform movements, and the organization of work in manufacturing. Second, while social disciplining certainly is the central feature of the early modern period, it also served to push forward the rise of the specifically modern individualism that Durkheim sees as the cause of the decline of individual‐level violence.
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