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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Northern Ireland23821 Posts
On May 04 2019 00:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 22:53 Wombat_NI wrote:
The Shield ended pretty well for me, alas despite me continually recommending it few people I know have actually seen it. Other shows like Dexter I felt went on way too long anyway, so the ending wasn’t the biggest deal to me. Other shows the absolute ending might be a let-down but they had a good final season running into it.
I suppose GoT is so big it’s got a rather fragmented fan base at this point and people who want all sorts of different things which probably doesn’t help matters either but it feels like they’ve been pretty sloppy with a bunch of stuff. Yeah, I don't know why the Shield doesn't get much fanfare, it stumbles in a few of its seasons but overall it's top-tier TV. The season with Forest Whitaker (s5?) in particular was extremely good.
Maybe when it came out/not being on streaming platforms doesn’t help. I think it came a bit before that, and a bit before TV had its current level of prestige, and it doesn’t quite have the reputation of a Sopranos or a Wire either. I think Oz falls into that weird zone a bit as well.
Come to think of it I think the Shield was the last show I actually followed and watched on TV as it came out over here.
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Canada8988 Posts
On May 03 2019 23:22 FreakyDroid wrote:
I didn't expect much from the episode or from the show at this point for that matter, but not explaining anything about the Night King, his motivations, his goals etc was a big let down. He is evil because he is evil, that's something GRRM has said countless times he doesnt do ... I realize that one way of looking at it is that at least it leaves the door wide open for GRRM to do anything he wants in the books, but I don't think this is a satisfying explanation as I think that the show should be able to stand on its own without the books.
The same could be said for Bran I guess since his story was in direct link with the NK.
As far as John goes, yeah I could see why some would be upset that he didnt have a bigger impact in the conclusion of the NK story, but there's still room for him to play a major role in reforming Westros (in a political sense) after they've dealt with Cersei.
My only hope at the moment is that GRRM isnt too happy with the show either and motivates him to finish the books sooner.
Night king is gonna be cover in the prequel I imagine
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On May 03 2019 22:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 22:27 farvacola wrote:
I find it very interesting that pretty much everyone I know who has seen SFU considers its ending one of, if not the best series endings ever. It really does set the bar in a way no other show seems able to compare with. If you are ok with heavy drama (with some humoristic bits, dark humor at that) then i would certainly recommend the show. And yeah the ending is just perfect, fits with everything that came before and will leave a big impression on you. Six Feet Under, Sopranos and The Wire, that was HBO at its best. Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 22:18 Manit0u wrote:On May 03 2019 21:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2019 15:58 sharkie wrote:On May 03 2019 15:45 bluzi wrote:
Not going to try and explain it as i am sure not "qualified" enough , the matter of fact is that i found my self FAST FORWARDING in the MIDDLE OF THE EPISODE , because i could not bare watching that travesty of an episode.
Its one thing knowing whats going to happen , but the way it was done , jeez.
Not following the books at all , but i hope they will take a different direction , maybe i will go read the final books.
GoT is going the way of "Lost" - a great show that could not tie things together for a cohesive and satisfying ending , GoT will be remembered the most for its bad ending unfortunately.
Branching out stories is not nearly as hard as tieing everything together. Lost and GoT/aSoIaF are the best examples of that. So yeah stories should be judged by how cohesive they were. I dont see why its a "unfortunately". Unfortunately because it was a great show the first few seasons, that's why. You simply don't accept reality, the big drop in quality since then  It's not like a tv series or story in general doesn't tie things together all the time during its run, there are mutliple subplots and plot/character developments they had to hit in a satisfying manner before and they did, they had the source material to copy. Now they struggle because they have nothing, it's really easy to see tbh. It's still true though, the absolute ending is probably the hardest thing to get right and if only because there is nothing to follow it, so it has to be satisfying, you obviusly want to end on a high note. It's fine to struggle when you run out of source material. What's not fine is taking the super lazy approach without thinking about anything. This episode single-handedly ruined the franchise. Here are some highlights: 1. The biggest battle on screen ever: cool, but everything about this battle was wrong - war machines in front, unsupported cavalry charge that did nothing except die, lack of lighting and shaky cam that make it impossible to see what's going on etc. It's just a dark blur of stuff happening without any impact (and some really dumb choices by characters, like Dany just sitting there on her dragon until a zillion zombies climbed on top of it). 2. Jon Snow's story arc was put into a dead end. 3. Hound's story arc was reversed (he's back to being a coward during the battle with a bit of fire, where he should thrive instead). 4. Beric-ade's reason for being brought back so many times is downplayed a lot. 5. Arya who has not had anything to do with WWs before now kills the NK in the most anticlimactic ending ever. 6. Bran is the most boring thing ever. 7. Nothing is properly explained (why does NK leave those spirals everywhere? Why does he need to get to Bran?) 8. NK is killed before really becoming a threat to Westeros. They stopped him at Winterfell so the southern kingdoms have no idea it even happened and will relege it to northern myths and legends instead of WWs being the external threat that unites the kingdoms. 9. Girl power! (She-bear slaying the giant, Arya slaying the NK) 10. After NK has been killed who's the next threat? Cersei with the Golden Company? Doesn't sound as bad as an endless army of the dead if you ask me... The only way they could probably redeem it is if in next episode NK raises from the dead somehow and is now immune to valyrian steel (kind of like Doomsday, who becomes immune to whatever killed him, that would also explain why dragon fire did nothing to him, he was previously killed by it). That would definitely rise the stakes again. It's funny to me that you want to make it political again with your 9th point though, i guess female characters aren't allowed to have their moments out of principle 
The thing is, I don't want it to be political but HBO does It's pretty annoying how most of the male cast was made pretty miserable recently while all the female roles get the spotlight. I wouldn't have anything against it if it wasn't so heavy-handed in its approach.
On May 04 2019 00:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
Well yeah although some of that nowadays feels weird. Not that I am disparaging of the preferences of others at all but I don’t get how some people who are loving this season because wow cool shiny things got into the show in the first place, when to me it was House of Cards/Wire style multi character storytelling in a fantasy setting that I liked.
That's the really big problem. Even in the interviews with the writers they say they do things because it seems cool (regardless of it being relevant to the story or having a reasonable explanation - like NK being immune to dragon fire: because why not?).
It would be a nice twist if GRRM killed off Arya in his book (I don't think she's relevant any more), to show his disapproval with how the show handled it all.
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On May 04 2019 00:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 23:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2019 22:47 -Archangel- wrote:On May 03 2019 22:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2019 22:27 farvacola wrote:
I find it very interesting that pretty much everyone I know who has seen SFU considers its ending one of, if not the best series endings ever. It really does set the bar in a way no other show seems able to compare with. If you are ok with heavy drama (with some humoristic bits, dark humor at that) then i would certainly recommend the show. And yeah the ending is just perfect, fits with everything that came before and will leave a big impression on you. Six Feet Under, Sopranos and The Wire, that was HBO at its best. And Rome. But Rome didn't have a good ending since the show was canceled due to being too expensive. I think Rome isn't quite up there, it was just too rushed in the 2nd season. Still definitely worth a watch though! On May 03 2019 22:53 Wombat_NI wrote:
The Shield ended pretty well for me, alas despite me continually recommending it few people I know have actually seen it. Other shows like Dexter I felt went on way too long anyway, so the ending wasn’t the biggest deal to me. Other shows the absolute ending might be a let-down but they had a good final season running into it.
I suppose GoT is so big it’s got a rather fragmented fan base at this point and people who want all sorts of different things which probably doesn’t help matters either but it feels like they’ve been pretty sloppy with a bunch of stuff. I have never seen the shield, have heard good things about it though. Dexter had a nice premise but not even during the good seasons was it ever close to the greats on HBO imo, i stopped watching during season 3 or 4 i think. I think the idea that "people want different things" is true to some degree, but GoT got as big as it is now due to early seasons and word of mouth there, noone is looking for something completely different here. Well yeah although some of that nowadays feels weird. Not that I am disparaging of the preferences of others at all but I don’t get how some people who are loving this season because wow cool shiny things got into the show in the first place, when to me it was House of Cards/Wire style multi character storytelling in a fantasy setting that I liked. I still feel an idiot for not getting into the show earlier as I used to frequently be in the same bars as the cast and had no idea who anyone was, ofc the show blowing up meant the cast had to partake less in the social life of Belfast as they’d get mobbed.
They kind of tried to continue the multi character storytelling before Dany left Meeren. I think they decided that it wasn't working as well as cool shiny things, so they chose to simplify everything by doing stuff like killing Littlefinger out of the blue (he had it coming but it shouldn't happen like that) or sending all the cool guys on a suicidial mission beyond the Wall. There's no need for storytelling if you skip the story part.
Hahaha, I was checking the GoT wiki to make sure Dany spent as much time in Meeren as I thought and I found this.
Deleted Scenes
The Season 6 Blu-ray set included three deleted scenes. The first two are not particularly new or substantive, but the third one includes large new sections of the play that Arya sees in Braavos which were cut for time.
(...)
A much longer opening section of The Bloody Hand, the play Arya sees in Braavos. About 2 minutes of new material, before "King Robert" gets gored in the boar hunt. Robert sits on the Iron Throne drinking wine excessively. Cersei pleads with him that he will dull his wits for the Small Council meeting. Robert slaps Cersei across the face, and admonishes her that the Small Council meetings are boring, and he will let Ned Stark deal with them - rather than attend to affairs of the realm, he would rather go on a boar hunt. Then "Robert" loadly farts (by lifting his leg and the sound effects man squeezing a prop bladder). Tyrion brings Robert more wine, and encourages him to drink far more than he should, so he will be too inebriated to defend himself from the boar. "Tyrion" then gives a soliloquy that this plays right into his hands, soon Ned Stark will be dead too, and he will be the new Hand of the King. Cersei introduces Joffrey, and says that Robert should bring his son to sit in on the council meeting to learn how to rule. Instead, Robert backhands Joffrey across the face (much to Arya and the crowd's amusement). Robert then goes on the boar hunt.----Two well-to-do women next to Arya, however, are insulted by the extremely crass language and low-brow humor inserted into the play, which they think is being used as a substitute for good writing, sarcastically saying, "violence and profanity? How original!" Arya then turns to them and sneers, "why don't you just leave then?"
In the DVD commentary, the TV writers explain that their version of the play (from the books) was meant to mock reviewers who complain about invented scenes of violence and profanity that aren't in the novels. However, even the director of the episodes the play scenes appear in (Jack Bender) grew uncomfortable and told them he thought the complaints were entirely accurate, and he thought this was them giving candid self-criticism. The writers insisted to him that it was obviously mocking unjustified criticisms and to go further with it; this disagreement may be why this part of the scene was deleted.
You can watch the part with Arya and two old ladies here (start around 5:50)
+ Show Spoiler +
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Wait isn't the second sons the same mercenary company that dany was contracting during her war in slavers bay? They had that scene where Darrio killed the other leaders and presented their heads to dany. Wouldn't that have gotten back to cersi or be obvious for anyone else why the second sons wouldn't be the best mercenary company to bring to westeros to fight dany?
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On May 04 2019 02:10 Sermokala wrote:
Wait isn't the second sons the same mercenary company that dany was contracting during her war in slavers bay? They had that scene where Darrio killed the other leaders and presented their heads to dany. Wouldn't that have gotten back to cersi or be obvious for anyone else why the second sons wouldn't be the best mercenary company to bring to westeros to fight dany? Cersie has the Golden Company, not the Second Sons.
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Cersei hired the golden company
EDIT: sniped
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Northern Ireland23821 Posts
On May 04 2019 00:52 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 22:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2019 22:27 farvacola wrote:
I find it very interesting that pretty much everyone I know who has seen SFU considers its ending one of, if not the best series endings ever. It really does set the bar in a way no other show seems able to compare with. If you are ok with heavy drama (with some humoristic bits, dark humor at that) then i would certainly recommend the show. And yeah the ending is just perfect, fits with everything that came before and will leave a big impression on you. Six Feet Under, Sopranos and The Wire, that was HBO at its best. On May 03 2019 22:18 Manit0u wrote:On May 03 2019 21:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2019 15:58 sharkie wrote:On May 03 2019 15:45 bluzi wrote:
Not going to try and explain it as i am sure not "qualified" enough , the matter of fact is that i found my self FAST FORWARDING in the MIDDLE OF THE EPISODE , because i could not bare watching that travesty of an episode.
Its one thing knowing whats going to happen , but the way it was done , jeez.
Not following the books at all , but i hope they will take a different direction , maybe i will go read the final books.
GoT is going the way of "Lost" - a great show that could not tie things together for a cohesive and satisfying ending , GoT will be remembered the most for its bad ending unfortunately.
Branching out stories is not nearly as hard as tieing everything together. Lost and GoT/aSoIaF are the best examples of that. So yeah stories should be judged by how cohesive they were. I dont see why its a "unfortunately". Unfortunately because it was a great show the first few seasons, that's why. You simply don't accept reality, the big drop in quality since then It's not like a tv series or story in general doesn't tie things together all the time during its run, there are mutliple subplots and plot/character developments they had to hit in a satisfying manner before and they did, they had the source material to copy. Now they struggle because they have nothing, it's really easy to see tbh. It's still true though, the absolute ending is probably the hardest thing to get right and if only because there is nothing to follow it, so it has to be satisfying, you obviusly want to end on a high note. It's fine to struggle when you run out of source material. What's not fine is taking the super lazy approach without thinking about anything. This episode single-handedly ruined the franchise. Here are some highlights: 1. The biggest battle on screen ever: cool, but everything about this battle was wrong - war machines in front, unsupported cavalry charge that did nothing except die, lack of lighting and shaky cam that make it impossible to see what's going on etc. It's just a dark blur of stuff happening without any impact (and some really dumb choices by characters, like Dany just sitting there on her dragon until a zillion zombies climbed on top of it). 2. Jon Snow's story arc was put into a dead end. 3. Hound's story arc was reversed (he's back to being a coward during the battle with a bit of fire, where he should thrive instead). 4. Beric-ade's reason for being brought back so many times is downplayed a lot. 5. Arya who has not had anything to do with WWs before now kills the NK in the most anticlimactic ending ever. 6. Bran is the most boring thing ever. 7. Nothing is properly explained (why does NK leave those spirals everywhere? Why does he need to get to Bran?) 8. NK is killed before really becoming a threat to Westeros. They stopped him at Winterfell so the southern kingdoms have no idea it even happened and will relege it to northern myths and legends instead of WWs being the external threat that unites the kingdoms. 9. Girl power! (She-bear slaying the giant, Arya slaying the NK) 10. After NK has been killed who's the next threat? Cersei with the Golden Company? Doesn't sound as bad as an endless army of the dead if you ask me... The only way they could probably redeem it is if in next episode NK raises from the dead somehow and is now immune to valyrian steel (kind of like Doomsday, who becomes immune to whatever killed him, that would also explain why dragon fire did nothing to him, he was previously killed by it). That would definitely rise the stakes again. It's funny to me that you want to make it political again with your 9th point though, i guess female characters aren't allowed to have their moments out of principle The thing is, I don't want it to be political but HBO does It's pretty annoying how most of the male cast was made pretty miserable recently while all the female roles get the spotlight. I wouldn't have anything against it if it wasn't so heavy-handed in its approach. Show nested quote +On May 04 2019 00:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
Well yeah although some of that nowadays feels weird. Not that I am disparaging of the preferences of others at all but I don’t get how some people who are loving this season because wow cool shiny things got into the show in the first place, when to me it was House of Cards/Wire style multi character storytelling in a fantasy setting that I liked.
That's the really big problem. Even in the interviews with the writers they say they do things because it seems cool (regardless of it being relevant to the story or having a reasonable explanation - like NK being immune to dragon fire: because why not?). It would be a nice twist if GRRM killed off Arya in his book (I don't think she's relevant any more), to show his disapproval with how the show handled it all.
Is it that political though at all?
The show was, and most often are, largely male dominated for a large portion of its runtime.
Sure, folks can overcorrect and redress that imbalance, or ethnic representation (not quite so pertinent in the GoT universe) in bad and heavy-handed ways, but I don’t really buy the political angle on that.
I mean there’s a sizeable cohort out there that moans incessantly about the new Star Wars films being ‘ruined by SJW’ politics when they’re projecting absolutely hardcore in some of the angles they are seeing.
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On May 04 2019 02:26 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2019 00:52 Manit0u wrote:On May 03 2019 22:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2019 22:27 farvacola wrote:
I find it very interesting that pretty much everyone I know who has seen SFU considers its ending one of, if not the best series endings ever. It really does set the bar in a way no other show seems able to compare with. If you are ok with heavy drama (with some humoristic bits, dark humor at that) then i would certainly recommend the show. And yeah the ending is just perfect, fits with everything that came before and will leave a big impression on you. Six Feet Under, Sopranos and The Wire, that was HBO at its best. On May 03 2019 22:18 Manit0u wrote:On May 03 2019 21:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2019 15:58 sharkie wrote:On May 03 2019 15:45 bluzi wrote:
Not going to try and explain it as i am sure not "qualified" enough , the matter of fact is that i found my self FAST FORWARDING in the MIDDLE OF THE EPISODE , because i could not bare watching that travesty of an episode.
Its one thing knowing whats going to happen , but the way it was done , jeez.
Not following the books at all , but i hope they will take a different direction , maybe i will go read the final books.
GoT is going the way of "Lost" - a great show that could not tie things together for a cohesive and satisfying ending , GoT will be remembered the most for its bad ending unfortunately.
Branching out stories is not nearly as hard as tieing everything together. Lost and GoT/aSoIaF are the best examples of that. So yeah stories should be judged by how cohesive they were. I dont see why its a "unfortunately". Unfortunately because it was a great show the first few seasons, that's why. You simply don't accept reality, the big drop in quality since then It's not like a tv series or story in general doesn't tie things together all the time during its run, there are mutliple subplots and plot/character developments they had to hit in a satisfying manner before and they did, they had the source material to copy. Now they struggle because they have nothing, it's really easy to see tbh. It's still true though, the absolute ending is probably the hardest thing to get right and if only because there is nothing to follow it, so it has to be satisfying, you obviusly want to end on a high note. It's fine to struggle when you run out of source material. What's not fine is taking the super lazy approach without thinking about anything. This episode single-handedly ruined the franchise. Here are some highlights: 1. The biggest battle on screen ever: cool, but everything about this battle was wrong - war machines in front, unsupported cavalry charge that did nothing except die, lack of lighting and shaky cam that make it impossible to see what's going on etc. It's just a dark blur of stuff happening without any impact (and some really dumb choices by characters, like Dany just sitting there on her dragon until a zillion zombies climbed on top of it). 2. Jon Snow's story arc was put into a dead end. 3. Hound's story arc was reversed (he's back to being a coward during the battle with a bit of fire, where he should thrive instead). 4. Beric-ade's reason for being brought back so many times is downplayed a lot. 5. Arya who has not had anything to do with WWs before now kills the NK in the most anticlimactic ending ever. 6. Bran is the most boring thing ever. 7. Nothing is properly explained (why does NK leave those spirals everywhere? Why does he need to get to Bran?) 8. NK is killed before really becoming a threat to Westeros. They stopped him at Winterfell so the southern kingdoms have no idea it even happened and will relege it to northern myths and legends instead of WWs being the external threat that unites the kingdoms. 9. Girl power! (She-bear slaying the giant, Arya slaying the NK) 10. After NK has been killed who's the next threat? Cersei with the Golden Company? Doesn't sound as bad as an endless army of the dead if you ask me... The only way they could probably redeem it is if in next episode NK raises from the dead somehow and is now immune to valyrian steel (kind of like Doomsday, who becomes immune to whatever killed him, that would also explain why dragon fire did nothing to him, he was previously killed by it). That would definitely rise the stakes again. It's funny to me that you want to make it political again with your 9th point though, i guess female characters aren't allowed to have their moments out of principle The thing is, I don't want it to be political but HBO does It's pretty annoying how most of the male cast was made pretty miserable recently while all the female roles get the spotlight. I wouldn't have anything against it if it wasn't so heavy-handed in its approach. On May 04 2019 00:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
Well yeah although some of that nowadays feels weird. Not that I am disparaging of the preferences of others at all but I don’t get how some people who are loving this season because wow cool shiny things got into the show in the first place, when to me it was House of Cards/Wire style multi character storytelling in a fantasy setting that I liked.
That's the really big problem. Even in the interviews with the writers they say they do things because it seems cool (regardless of it being relevant to the story or having a reasonable explanation - like NK being immune to dragon fire: because why not?). It would be a nice twist if GRRM killed off Arya in his book (I don't think she's relevant any more), to show his disapproval with how the show handled it all. Is it that political though at all? The show was, and most often are, largely male dominated for a large portion of its runtime. Sure, folks can overcorrect and redress that imbalance, or ethnic representation (not quite so pertinent in the GoT universe) in bad and heavy-handed ways, but I don’t really buy the political angle on that. I mean there’s a sizeable cohort out there that moans incessantly about the new Star Wars films being ‘ruined by SJW’ politics when they’re projecting absolutely hardcore in some of the angles they are seeing.
Like I mentioned numerous times before - I have no huge gripes with PC but the way they're doing it is pretty obnoxious. When was the last time we had a significant male plot arc that didn't end with the character in question somehow more downtrodden or miserable? Jon surrendered his crown to Dany, Hound regressed to being batshit scared of fire until he sees Arya, Sam is, well Sam, Tyrion's wisdom and wits are being called into question, Jorah is miserable all along and then dies for the gurl, Jaimie is being judged by the ladies and saved by Brienne who he then knights. On the other hand we have Sansa becoming super scary politico, little Mormont slaying giants, Arya becoming the uber murder-monkey, Brienne finally getting knighted etc. It just seems like the female cast is getting all the good stuff while all the male cast is getting the short end of the stick. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I'd like for the things to be a bit more balanced in this regard.
To get back on topic. What the hell happened with the warlocks wanting to destroy Dany? Has this story arc been completely forgotten and shut off?
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Jon doesn't necessarily want the crown, he wants the best for the people, like wat.
Hound summons strength because he sees an actual child fight with death, he overcomes his fears because of his companionship with Arya
Why shouldn't Tyrion's wits being called into question?
Why shouldn't Sam, a literal useless fighter, fight? It's basically a redemption for useless males that, even they, can kill one or two members of the infinite horde.
Jorah literally pledges his life to the girl from season 1 onward, even though he reported to Westeros, he was still loyal to her. Dying for his queen while protecting her is probably the highest honor he could achieve here and any other resolution for him would be unsatisfactory.
Jaime is part of the evil side for the North. Him being vouched has everything to do with the fact he bonded with Brienne, someone who upholds honor to the highest degree possible.
Sansa becoming anything less than a cunning woman after what she's been through would be simply disgusting. She's seen all the sides people have to offer her and in turn has been able to learn from them. She's been in the company of Tyrion and Littlefinger for extended periods of time, people who are extremely intelligent and Ramsey and Geoffrey, people who are extremely abusive. She knows how to do certain things and how to avoid getting into certain situations again. Especially being on home turf.
Little Mormont slaying a SINGLE giant was just a badass scene, who cares.
Arya was a bit over the top, I agree, but it's been foreshadowed so much with the weapon Gendry was supposed to make for her. I mean, what else do you expect lol.
Brienne getting knighted is her catharsis. Like, it's the perfect ending to her development arc. Now she can die or do whatever and it's all good.
You are actually way overthinking it what the fuck.
When have the Warlocks last been trying to get hands on Dany? I think that was before Myreen even.
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On May 04 2019 03:16 Uldridge wrote:
Jon doesn't necessarily want the crown, he wants the best for the people, like wat.
Hound summons strength because he sees an actual child fight with death, he overcomes his fears because of his companionship with Arya
Why shouldn't Tyrion's wits being called into question?
Why shouldn't Sam, a literal useless fighter, fight? It's basically a redemption for useless males that, even they, can kill one or two members of the infinite horde.
Jorah literally pledges his life to the girl from season 1 onward, even though he reported to Westeros, he was still loyal to her. Dying for his queen while protecting her is probably the highest honor he could achieve here and any other resolution for him would be unsatisfactory.
Jaime is part of the evil side for the North. Him being vouched has everything to do with the fact he bonded with Brienne, someone who upholds honor to the highest degree possible.
Sansa becoming anything less than a cunning woman after what she's been through would be simply disgusting. She's seen all the sides people have to offer her and in turn has been able to learn from them. She's been in the company of Tyrion and Littlefinger for extended periods of time, people who are extremely intelligent and Ramsey and Geoffrey, people who are extremely abusive. She knows how to do certain things and how to avoid getting into certain situations again. Especially being on home turf.
Little Mormont slaying a SINGLE giant was just a badass scene, who cares.
Arya was a bit over the top, I agree, but it's been foreshadowed so much with the weapon Gendry was supposed to make for her. I mean, what else do you expect lol.
Brienne getting knighted is her catharsis. Like, it's the perfect ending to her development arc. Now she can die or do whatever and it's all good.
You are actually way overthinking it what the fuck.
When have the Warlocks last been trying to get hands on Dany? I think that was before Myreen even.
I concur in this assessment, it’s really a stretch to see GoT, for all its obvious flaws, as being somehow too PC.
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United States41983 Posts
It’s also possible that women are left doing badass stuff because the men are dead. Sansa and Arya rising to the occasion is somewhat necessary after Robb died.
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The problem isn't that its arya for me but just the compromise of how she did it. I can ignore the physics of how she was able to jump on the NK like that. I can ignore the other hand that could have been holding the dagger the whole time and accomplished the same thing. I just hate the cheesy shit way that she just dropped the knife while the NK watched and then grabbed it with her open arm to stab him. If he had sidestepped just like theon had just got done she fell and then used her water dancing technique they could have had her get injured and have her kill the NK. This would have allowed them to put her on the shelf recovering for the end of the series when they pull her out for the surprise assassination later.
We had a scene where she gets injured and can't be super assassin. We get a scene where shes not sneaky enough to escape regular wights. And then we get a scene where this is all ignored for a cheesy scream super leap into a knife trick that couldn't have been planned for or really was up to her level of training.
And we get john over there screaming at a dragon because he can't really do anything anymore.
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On May 04 2019 02:26 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2019 00:52 Manit0u wrote:On May 03 2019 22:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2019 22:27 farvacola wrote:
I find it very interesting that pretty much everyone I know who has seen SFU considers its ending one of, if not the best series endings ever. It really does set the bar in a way no other show seems able to compare with. If you are ok with heavy drama (with some humoristic bits, dark humor at that) then i would certainly recommend the show. And yeah the ending is just perfect, fits with everything that came before and will leave a big impression on you. Six Feet Under, Sopranos and The Wire, that was HBO at its best. On May 03 2019 22:18 Manit0u wrote:On May 03 2019 21:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2019 15:58 sharkie wrote:On May 03 2019 15:45 bluzi wrote:
Not going to try and explain it as i am sure not "qualified" enough , the matter of fact is that i found my self FAST FORWARDING in the MIDDLE OF THE EPISODE , because i could not bare watching that travesty of an episode.
Its one thing knowing whats going to happen , but the way it was done , jeez.
Not following the books at all , but i hope they will take a different direction , maybe i will go read the final books.
GoT is going the way of "Lost" - a great show that could not tie things together for a cohesive and satisfying ending , GoT will be remembered the most for its bad ending unfortunately.
Branching out stories is not nearly as hard as tieing everything together. Lost and GoT/aSoIaF are the best examples of that. So yeah stories should be judged by how cohesive they were. I dont see why its a "unfortunately". Unfortunately because it was a great show the first few seasons, that's why. You simply don't accept reality, the big drop in quality since then It's not like a tv series or story in general doesn't tie things together all the time during its run, there are mutliple subplots and plot/character developments they had to hit in a satisfying manner before and they did, they had the source material to copy. Now they struggle because they have nothing, it's really easy to see tbh. It's still true though, the absolute ending is probably the hardest thing to get right and if only because there is nothing to follow it, so it has to be satisfying, you obviusly want to end on a high note. It's fine to struggle when you run out of source material. What's not fine is taking the super lazy approach without thinking about anything. This episode single-handedly ruined the franchise. Here are some highlights: 1. The biggest battle on screen ever: cool, but everything about this battle was wrong - war machines in front, unsupported cavalry charge that did nothing except die, lack of lighting and shaky cam that make it impossible to see what's going on etc. It's just a dark blur of stuff happening without any impact (and some really dumb choices by characters, like Dany just sitting there on her dragon until a zillion zombies climbed on top of it). 2. Jon Snow's story arc was put into a dead end. 3. Hound's story arc was reversed (he's back to being a coward during the battle with a bit of fire, where he should thrive instead). 4. Beric-ade's reason for being brought back so many times is downplayed a lot. 5. Arya who has not had anything to do with WWs before now kills the NK in the most anticlimactic ending ever. 6. Bran is the most boring thing ever. 7. Nothing is properly explained (why does NK leave those spirals everywhere? Why does he need to get to Bran?) 8. NK is killed before really becoming a threat to Westeros. They stopped him at Winterfell so the southern kingdoms have no idea it even happened and will relege it to northern myths and legends instead of WWs being the external threat that unites the kingdoms. 9. Girl power! (She-bear slaying the giant, Arya slaying the NK) 10. After NK has been killed who's the next threat? Cersei with the Golden Company? Doesn't sound as bad as an endless army of the dead if you ask me... The only way they could probably redeem it is if in next episode NK raises from the dead somehow and is now immune to valyrian steel (kind of like Doomsday, who becomes immune to whatever killed him, that would also explain why dragon fire did nothing to him, he was previously killed by it). That would definitely rise the stakes again. It's funny to me that you want to make it political again with your 9th point though, i guess female characters aren't allowed to have their moments out of principle The thing is, I don't want it to be political but HBO does It's pretty annoying how most of the male cast was made pretty miserable recently while all the female roles get the spotlight. I wouldn't have anything against it if it wasn't so heavy-handed in its approach. On May 04 2019 00:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
Well yeah although some of that nowadays feels weird. Not that I am disparaging of the preferences of others at all but I don’t get how some people who are loving this season because wow cool shiny things got into the show in the first place, when to me it was House of Cards/Wire style multi character storytelling in a fantasy setting that I liked.
That's the really big problem. Even in the interviews with the writers they say they do things because it seems cool (regardless of it being relevant to the story or having a reasonable explanation - like NK being immune to dragon fire: because why not?). It would be a nice twist if GRRM killed off Arya in his book (I don't think she's relevant any more), to show his disapproval with how the show handled it all. Is it that political though at all?
It is in America.
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I think for me it wasnt so much the way she killed NK, but more so that it didnt fit her character considering that she was built up as a character who wanted revenge for the people who wronged her family and friends. She had zero connection to the NK the white walkers or any of that. If you ask me, Melisandre would have been a far better choice to kill the NK if they really wanted to do a female character to do the job. So I guess what Im saying is that it didnt make a whole lot of sense for her to kill the NK from a narrative standpoint. It does make sense only if you consider her skill set of being an assassin and all that, but that for me doesn't feel like a good resolution/payoff because it doesn't have as much weight. If I were to draw a parallel of an equally bad resolution to another major plot, is to have Grey Worm kill Cersei for instance. Sure it will be plausible considering his skill set, it will be surprising and everything and subvert all expectations, but it wont make a whole lot of sense. Not sure if what I wrote makes sense, but those are my thoughts about it.
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On May 04 2019 06:00 Sermokala wrote:
The problem isn't that its arya for me but just the compromise of how she did it. I can ignore the physics of how she was able to jump on the NK like that. I can ignore the other hand that could have been holding the dagger the whole time and accomplished the same thing. I just hate the cheesy shit way that she just dropped the knife while the NK watched and then grabbed it with her open arm to stab him. If he had sidestepped just like theon had just got done she fell and then used her water dancing technique they could have had her get injured and have her kill the NK. This would have allowed them to put her on the shelf recovering for the end of the series when they pull her out for the surprise assassination later.
We had a scene where she gets injured and can't be super assassin. We get a scene where shes not sneaky enough to escape regular wights. And then we get a scene where this is all ignored for a cheesy scream super leap into a knife trick that couldn't have been planned for or really was up to her level of training.
And we get john over there screaming at a dragon because he can't really do anything anymore.
And for me I can buy the story of Arya killing NK like she did IF she didn't need to first stealth through 100+ zombies and 10 white walkers that from what was shown completely surrounded Bran and the tree. And in scene in the library they shown zombies being able to hear blood dripping. The way the episode was setup she had no plausible way to get to NK.
They just needed to make some kind of distraction and then have her attack NK. Like one of the Dragons do a sweep at the WW and zombies or maybe give Bran a purpose and have him warg into couple of zombies and have them attack WW. NK would then go for his weapon to stab Bran and Arya could have done the jump she did.
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You think the quietness of the inside of a castle is the same as the outside of the castle? Where wind blows and snow falls and people are croaking and fire is burning?
I generally would've favored a brief fighting scene with Arya, her getting hurt, getting some kind of intuition moment from Melisandre and then not to be seen again for the rest of the episode, implying she was in a tree the entire time, something some people have mentioned in these very forums already. Would've been WAY more plausible and satisfying. They could've even upped the tension by her being disappeared from the scene, implying she fled because she was almost overrun by a horde and suddenly remembered she was still a kid and wasn't ready to give up her life yet (idk how fitting that would've been though, perhaps she would need to see the Hound and/or some other people being killed brutally or something), but they could've handled it way better.
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Northern Ireland23821 Posts
On May 04 2019 05:04 KwarK wrote:
It’s also possible that women are left doing badass stuff because the men are dead. Sansa and Arya rising to the occasion is somewhat necessary after Robb died.
It’s also possible that everyone at this stage is doing ridiculous superhero shit but it’s only ‘unrealistic’ if it’s a woman doing it.
Or normal characterisation is framed as some kind of angle that is meant to emasculate men for reasons or something.
I mean I’m not a massive fan of the new Star Wars trilogy but the amount of drivel I’ve read about Rey and Holdo especially being plants for some feminist agenda, like Jesus
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Northern Ireland23821 Posts
On May 04 2019 07:51 Uldridge wrote:
You think the quietness of the inside of a castle is the same as the outside of the castle? Where wind blows and snow falls and people are croaking and fire is burning?
I generally would've favored a brief fighting scene with Arya, her getting hurt, getting some kind of intuition moment from Melisandre and then not to be seen again for the rest of the episode, implying she was in a tree the entire time, something some people have mentioned in these very forums already. Would've been WAY more plausible and satisfying. They could've even upped the tension by her being disappeared from the scene, implying she fled because she was almost overrun by a horde and suddenly remembered she was still a kid and wasn't ready to give up her life yet (idk how fitting that would've been though, perhaps she would need to see the Hound and/or some other people being killed brutally or something), but they could've handled it way better.
I mean, it’s unbelievably frustrating that I’m reading people spitballing ideas on a forum and nodding and thinking ‘yes that absolutely would have been better’, over and over again with this season.
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I'm just thinking I would've felt way more satisfied with her assassination because it felt so impossible, even though it was kind of foreshadowed by Melisandre telling her about her prophecy, however, it's just not set up well. Like, at all.
Maybe let her climb a tree all sneakily in the background when the camera is focused on the NK and Theon or some shit, IDK.
Did you enjoy the conclusion of the episode? I didn't follow every conversation here, only snippets, so you must excuse me if I failed to remember your opinion about it.
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