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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass.
So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing
Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing
Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now
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On April 30 2019 22:02 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:01 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. It is like he deleted every other season of this show from his memory. I wish I could delete the last 4.
You can just stop watching. I did it with Walking Dead and it was dope.
On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now
And characters like Jon do the exact same thing, but didn’t need to go blind to do it.
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On April 30 2019 22:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:02 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. It is like he deleted every other season of this show from his memory. I wish I could delete the last 4. You can just stop watching. I did it with Walking Dead and it was dope. Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now And characters like Jon do the exact same thing, but didn’t need to go blind to do it.
Secretly I enjoy hate-watching the show and then complaining about it on the internet, but don't tell that to anyone. I also somehow convinced myself after every season that it might get better.
On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now
Its not becoming skilled without any drawbacks that is the problem. Its that everything works out for her and she always gets to look cool about it. Never a moment of self-doubt, never a moment of struggling with any emotions. Taking revenge on the freys, killing the NK etc...
She's killed so many people, witnessed so much destruction, and she's never had to contemplate or process it for even a moment. Real people aren't like that.
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I liked the episode, didn’t love it. The first half was extremely good, the second half much less so. The undead basically holding everyone instead of stabbing while the final kill developed was pretty meh.
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On April 30 2019 22:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now And characters like Jon do the exact same thing, but didn’t need to go blind to do it.
But she DIDNT go blind. Thats exactly the lack of lasting consequences for her character that Im talking about. She went blind and then soon after just recovered and everything was okay. What was even the point? Probably just something to get audience reactions again. Wouldn't you agree that if she had remained blind - and thus actually paid a price for her powers - that her arc would be much better?
Moreover I dont see how pointing out that yes, Jon is ALSO a bad character really strengthens your point of view.
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She does not need to go blind for us to see that there have been consequences, it's highlighted through season 7 and 8 at every turn how she's changed, she went from being just a child to someone who's main purpose is revenge (which is why I don't see her continuing in the story past the final episode), she' basically fueled by her desire to kill the people on her list..
ok she didn't lose a hand, or any other limbs, but it's hard to say there have been no consequences..
sure you could write all characters in a 100% realistic way, have the NK march south and kill everyone (because let's be honest, that was the most likely scenario from the beginning) and the show end with no more humans alive and zombies covering the whole realm
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On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting  (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe
I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall.
A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow.
Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever.
So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference.
On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now
Why are you constantly talking about "balance" ? A good character arc is defined by a character having psychological and moral needs, a desire and at the end a selfreflection which makes the character change. This change can be positive or negative (it can also be stagnant but then you need to show why the character couldn't change and basically double down). The problem with arya's arc is that she was on the road to become basically a little psychopath, at this point we should pity her, that this poor little girl became a monster. Instead she is glorified, she just has neat little skills now but there is no real change. At the start she wanted to be a badass, now she is a badass. There is no development.
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On April 30 2019 22:12 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:05 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 22:02 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. It is like he deleted every other season of this show from his memory. I wish I could delete the last 4. You can just stop watching. I did it with Walking Dead and it was dope. On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now And characters like Jon do the exact same thing, but didn’t need to go blind to do it. Secretly I enjoy hate-watching the show and then complaining about it on the internet, but don't tell that to anyone. I also somehow convinced myself after every season that it might get better. Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now Its not becoming skilled without any drawbacks that is the problem. Its that everything works out for her and she always gets to look cool about it. Never a moment of self-doubt, never a moment of struggling with any emotions. Taking revenge on the freys, killing the NK etc... She's killed so many people, witnessed so much destruction, and she's never had to contemplate or process it for even a moment. Real people aren't like that.
Real people also dont survive what she had to go through. But back then it was good writing, right? Because only bad stuff was happening to her?
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On April 30 2019 22:22 VHbb wrote:
She does not need to go blind for us to see that there have been consequences, it's highlighted through season 7 and 8 at every turn how she's changed, she went from being just a child to someone who's main purpose is revenge (which is why I don't see her continuing in the story past the final episode), she' basically fueled by her desire to kill the people on her list..
ok she didn't lose a hand, or any other limbs, but it's hard to say there have been no consequences..
sure you could write all characters in a 100% realistic way, have the NK march south and kill everyone (because let's be honest, that was the most likely scenario from the beginning) and the show end with no more humans alive and zombies covering the whole realm
Which I think would be much more interesting than how they just defeated the night king and if they just end up killing cersei and put jon and dany on the throne.
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On April 30 2019 21:36 VHbb wrote:
I tend to see sharkie's point on this. Littlefinger's death is the consequence of his actions: the Stark changed over the course of the show, he cannot manipulate them as easily as before, and trying to do so (and putting Sansa against Arya) results in him getting executed, as consequence of his lack of attention (you can see through season 7 how both Sansa and Arya have changed, while he fails to realize he cannot plot around them as before). The only difference is that he is one of the "bad" guys, but his death is still consequence of his actions (and it contributes to the story in the sense that it shows us how the balance changed, and the Stark children are not children anymore).
edit: I also would have expected more people to die in this battle, but I'm not *that* upset about it. Sure, Greyworm seemed doomed (especially after Melisandre passes by him saying Valar Morgulis), but it's not like this would change the plot that much. It might have a stronger emotional impact than him living, but it's not that big.
If a major character (Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, ..) would have died in Winterfell last episode, that would have major consequences, but I also don't see how it would be motivated by previous storylines..
Littlefinger's death was no doubt the consequence of his actions, but that wasn't really under discussion. I'd argue two things though:
1) Littlefinger suddenly became stupid. He could play out Ned vs Cersei vs Robert. He was able to play the Vale lords like a fiddle, and then the moment D&D get the reigns over his character, he gives Sansa to the Boltons for... nothing? Then "rescues" Sansa (and the north) from the very thing he had empowered, and then last season he had his come-uppance when trying to play Arya vs Sansa, despite them already plotting it all to frame him in the first place. Surprise!
No. It was totally idiotic writing, and that in that narrative Littlefinger's story ran out doesn't make that story good. The moment they ran out of GRRM's material, he became a caricature of himself.
2) The question was what narrative point there was to killing Littlefinger. Ned Stark "had" to die to start the War of the Five Kings. Would there maybe have been other ways for GRRM to start that same war? Maybe, but the way he chose to do it made sense from the point of view of all characters involved, and shocked the reader/audience. It was some great writing. Littlefinger's death didn't really serve the narrative purpose the showmakers seem to have envisioned. Maybe the main problem is just that it's all too rushed, or maybe the scriptwriters and directors just aren't very good. What they were going for was obviously the moment where Sansa outgrew her master, except instead of giving time for Sansa to show her mastery, they just showed Littlefinger turning really stupid and dying for it. Is Sansa now a powerful player in the Game? Everybody (Arya) says so, but it's a whole lot of telling and no showing. Despite "outplaying" Littlefinger.
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On April 30 2019 22:30 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:12 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 22:05 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 22:02 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. It is like he deleted every other season of this show from his memory. I wish I could delete the last 4. You can just stop watching. I did it with Walking Dead and it was dope. On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now And characters like Jon do the exact same thing, but didn’t need to go blind to do it. Secretly I enjoy hate-watching the show and then complaining about it on the internet, but don't tell that to anyone. I also somehow convinced myself after every season that it might get better. On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now Its not becoming skilled without any drawbacks that is the problem. Its that everything works out for her and she always gets to look cool about it. Never a moment of self-doubt, never a moment of struggling with any emotions. Taking revenge on the freys, killing the NK etc... She's killed so many people, witnessed so much destruction, and she's never had to contemplate or process it for even a moment. Real people aren't like that. Real people also dont survive what she had to go through. But back then it was good writing, right? Because only bad stuff was happening to her?
Real people dont survive being stabbed in the abdomen several times and then jumping into a sewer no, which is what happened in season 6. Im genuinely curious what you mean by 'people dont survive what she had to go through' when we're talking about season 1-4.
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On April 30 2019 21:28 love2d wrote:
I've always annoyed my GF with being so geeky about Valyrian steel, so imagine my excitement when Oathkeeper, Longclaw, the Tarly family sword and Littlefinger's dagger all ended up in the same place at the same time while facing a horde of Others.
My balls could not be any bluer.
hahaha
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On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference.
Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow.
No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX"
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On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX"
You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense.
This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try.
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On April 30 2019 22:35 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:30 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:12 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 22:05 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 22:02 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. It is like he deleted every other season of this show from his memory. I wish I could delete the last 4. You can just stop watching. I did it with Walking Dead and it was dope. On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now And characters like Jon do the exact same thing, but didn’t need to go blind to do it. Secretly I enjoy hate-watching the show and then complaining about it on the internet, but don't tell that to anyone. I also somehow convinced myself after every season that it might get better. On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now Its not becoming skilled without any drawbacks that is the problem. Its that everything works out for her and she always gets to look cool about it. Never a moment of self-doubt, never a moment of struggling with any emotions. Taking revenge on the freys, killing the NK etc... She's killed so many people, witnessed so much destruction, and she's never had to contemplate or process it for even a moment. Real people aren't like that. Real people also dont survive what she had to go through. But back then it was good writing, right? Because only bad stuff was happening to her? Real people dont survive being stabbed in the abdomen several times and then jumping into a sewer no, which is what happened in season 6. Im genuinely curious what you mean by 'people dont survive what she had to go through' when we're talking about season 1-4.
Real people would have died in Harrenhal
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On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try.
Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind?
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Littlefinger was a dude who thought he had a plan to gain power in the system, but only managed to create chaos and never obtained much. His main talent was avoiding being murdered better than most people who are into betrayal.
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On April 30 2019 22:42 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try. Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind?
People like varys and tyrion usually mentioned him being one of the most dangerous and unpredictable people in the realm because of his intellect and lack of restraint in getting what he wanted. Can't pinpoint anyone saying that hes specifically a "mastermind" but thats not necessary either to make the point
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On April 30 2019 22:13 farvacola wrote:
I liked the episode, didn’t love it. The first half was extremely good, the second half much less so. The undead basically holding everyone instead of stabbing while the final kill developed was pretty meh.
I was absolutely hoping for the final scene to be the NK swearing his sword to Bran and then everybody else dying. At least that would have been a realistic ending to the fight between the living and the dead with the way that battle was going. Instead Sam got rescued 10 times, and everybody else of consequence escaped death.
People who should obviously have died this episode:
- Grey Worm (heroically running with a torch and lighting the trench, rather than escorting Melissandre. Although I did like Melissandre's scene).
- Varys (he gets barely any showtime anyway, so just kill him off. Tyrion fulfills his role now anyway)
- Thormund Giantsbane
- Jorah Mormont (yes, he did die, but he somehow survived the dothraki kamikaze... dafuq)
- Brienne (fulfills her dream of becoming a knight and dies. I mean... they made a huge point last episode of completing her arc)
- Sam (duh. maybe dolorous ed could then have lived)
- Bran (because he is apparenlty a total waste of space and it's about time another Stark died)
- Ghost (because everybody on the show has forgotten about him anyway)
And then if they had had Arya actually reach the Godswood by sneaking around the castle like an escaped scene from the Walking Dead, then her killing the NK might actually make sense? Even so, I have absolutely no clue why the White Walkers all exploded when their king died. The zombies falling apart makes sense in the lore. He's the necromancer holding them up in the first place. But what makes all the other WW all explode?
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At this point I think everyone sees whatever in whichever character, and enjoys (or not) the show as preferred 
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EPT
