EPT[TV] HBO Game of Thrones - Page 1750
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 30 2019 23:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: He literally got control of the army of the vale. Can we pls be factual at least, it is incredibly intellectually dishonest to phrase things the way you do :/ Lord Robin Arryn controlled the army of the Vale and he would listen to Littlefinger. He controlled them by proxy and that power would evaporate the instant the young lord no longer wanted to listen to Littlefinger. That is power, but nothing compared holding the seat of power directly. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On April 30 2019 23:44 farvacola wrote: I disagree that everything not spelled out in the books has turned out trash; Hardhome is still my favorite episode and it was created solely by the show runners iirc. They made some good choices in brief spurts, only to fumble most if not all of the longer term story arcs. Oh yeah it is too harsh to say everything else is bad, though let's be real, hardhome was mostly an action spectacle, more about the directing of said action than anything else. The show only got better with that, more budget, etc. Where the show struggles is the writing now, both on the macro and micro lvl (which is why tyrion developed into a dick joke machine, it is hard to come up with meaningful dialogue, at least he had some nice moments recently again) On April 30 2019 23:47 Plansix wrote: Lord Robin Arryn controlled the army of the Vale and he would listen to Littlefinger. He controlled them by proxy and that power would evaporate the instant the young lord no longer wanted to listen to Littlefinger. That is power, but nothing compared holding the seat of power directly. And he got into that position by removing the former lady without getting caught, resulting into him having that power. He also had to do a lot of other things before that to even have a chance, he was a big player at the red keep. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous and factually incorrect. Let's at least not make things up, at that point the conversation is over because it is fruitless if we purposefully act in bad faith. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 30 2019 23:48 The_Red_Viper wrote: Oh yeah it is too harsh to say everything else is bad, though let's be real, hardhome was mostly an action spectacle, more about the directing of said action than anything else. The show only got better with that, more budget, etc. Where the show struggles is the writing now, both on the macro and micro lvl (which is why tyrion developed into a dick joke machine, it is hard to come up with meaningful dialogue, at least he had some nice moments recently again) And he got into that position by removing the former lady without getting caught, resulting into him having that power. He also had to do a lot of other things before that to even have a chance, he was a big player at the red keep. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous and factually incorrect. Let's at least not make things up, at that point the conversation is over because it is fruitless if we purposefully act in bad faith. I really don’t know what you are objecting to, to be honest. People said that Littlefinger never held any real power, which is accurate. He was never in line to inherit power. He never had the ability to command anyone without the backing of a lord. He had power through his ability to manipulate other people, but that power had firm limits that were evident. Compared to someone like Tyrin or even Jon as lord of Winterfell, Littlefinger’s power was minor at best. His main way of accessing the levers of power was to point the people with access to power at his enemies or others to create what he felt would be openings for him to gain more power. And to murder his wife in front of another Lady and hope she never talks about it forever. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22584 Posts
I wasn't sad or worried about our heroes. I wanted the show to move on to something more interesting. | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On April 30 2019 23:47 Plansix wrote: Lord Robin Arryn controlled the army of the Vale and he would listen to Littlefinger. He controlled them by proxy and that power would evaporate the instant the young lord no longer wanted to listen to Littlefinger. That is power, but nothing compared holding the seat of power directly. If we're being super specific i would rather argue that the soldiers follow their lords, and their lords follow who they trust, and their mouthpiece was always Royce. Royce mouthed more doubts about robin than about littlefinger after sansa decided to come clean about who she was and littlefinger's part in her survival and freeing from kings landing. Purely speculation i guess, but if littlefinger ever percieved robin to be a real threat(which it is unlikely he was ever going to become, he was into his teens and still mentally only a toddler++), he would find a way to sideline him. Or just poison him and blame it on robin's tragically poor constitution, which has been noted and commented by every notable person in the vale Of course, without Sansa's connection to Lysa it is up in the air whether the lords of the vale could be relied upon to back him, as an outsider, over one of their own in the event of robin's death, so there's also that. EDIT: So yeah given your reply to viper its much more fair to say that his actual direct power wasn't as strong as a high born lord in line of succession, but thats far from saying littlefinger only ever had small amounts of power that was ultimately inconsequential | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
On April 30 2019 23:58 Gorsameth wrote: Also, the sad 'everything is lost music' near the end. Its a common enough thing in movies to portray hopelessness but it goes on for like 15 minutes. It just felt horribly stretched to me, and through that completely ruined the tone it was trying to convey. I wasn't sad or worried about our heroes. I wanted the show to move on to something more interesting. That was the best part of the episode for me (and for all my friends who watch GoT), different perspectives  | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On April 30 2019 23:44 farvacola wrote: I disagree that everything not spelled out in the books has turned out trash; Hardhome is still my favorite episode and it was created almost solely by the show runners iirc. They made some good choices in brief spurts, only to fumble most if not all of the longer term story arcs. two things: 1. I did say almost everything, and I will put a caveat on that I meant significant aspects of the writing. Hardhome, as far as writing goes, is relatively inconsequential and IMO it's a result of a storyline simplification. It's mostly just "hey, can we convince the wildlings after Mance has died to come south of the wall and join us" and set up for Jon to get stabbed in S05E10. This results IMO because the show writers simplified Mance's storyline, and I actually do think a lot of the time when the show runners have completely omitted a side plot or complicated part of the books (rather than trying to change it significantly) it ends up being better suited for TV than how GRRM wrote it. 2. Hardhome IS in the books, the main plot differences being that in the books Jon Snow does not go there himself and in the show this is where we find out about valyrian steel being capable of defeating White Walkers. In the books: + Show Spoiler + There is a backstory to Hardhome that some sort of disaster struck there hundreds of years prior. After Mance loses, a small part of his army retreats to Hardhome in the books as well and the Night's Watch sends Cotter Pyke to try and get them to evacuate from the incoming dead. This is also, IIRC, exactly why there is a very specific number of like 5000-6000 wildlings who escape in the show, because that is the number described in the books who ended up going to Hardhome after Mance loses. I also recall Melisandre having some sort of vision, including the white mist and wooden wall and all that, so I don't think it's entirely or even mostly created by the show-runners. If you mean that you enjoyed the spectacle of Hardhome and the atmosphere, then I agree. Sapochnik manages to capture the horror of the army of the dead really well in Hardhome and also in S08E03, and I think that's really what makes Hardhome shine. Doesn't make the writing for the last couple seasons any better, though | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 01 2019 00:00 Aocowns wrote: If we're being super specific i would rather argue that the soldiers follow their lords, and their lords follow who they trust, and their mouthpiece was always Royce. Royce mouthed more doubts about robin than about littlefinger after sansa decided to come clean about who she was and littlefinger's part in her survival and freeing from kings landing. Purely speculation i guess, but if littlefinger ever percieved robin to be a real threat(which it is unlikely he was ever going to become, he was into his teens and still mentally only a toddler++), he would find a way to sideline him. Or just poison him and blame it on robin's tragically poor constitution, which has been noted and commented by every notable person in the vale Of course, without Sansa's connection to Lysa it is up in the air whether the lords of the vale could be relied upon to back him, as an outsider, over one of their own in the event of robin's death, so there's also that. EDIT: So yeah given your reply to viper its much more fair to say that his actual direct power wasn't as strong as a high born lord in line of succession, but thats far from saying littlefinger only ever had small amounts of power that was ultimately inconsequential I never said he was inconsequential. I said he never had much power. And frankly, I’ve never understood why people are so weirdly defensive about Littlefinger. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22584 Posts
On May 01 2019 00:30 Plansix wrote: Because he is the common man fantasy. He came from nothing into being an important player in the game of thrones.I never said he was inconsequential. I said he never had much power. And frankly, I’ve never understood why people are so weirdly defensive about Littlefinger. He is the medieval equivalence of the office worker hoping to one day be a millionaire if only he is clever and hard working enough. | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On May 01 2019 00:30 Plansix wrote: I never said he was inconsequential. I said he never had much power. And frankly, I’ve never understood why people are so weirdly defensive about Littlefinger. some people really like the scheming self serving smart people, they're a common archetype that make interesting things happen at the very least, and they're usually a "cooler" villain than other villain archetypes and idk about others but im being weirdly defensive because you said something initially weirdly stupid. Took a long time and quite some moving of goal posts until you said something remotely defendable imo EDIT: and i was under the impression gendry was more the common man fantasy. It's weird to describe the common man fantasy as someone whose death is almost universally cheered upon among the common man watching the show because he's so cold and manipulative and unrelatable. Now, that is definitely a fantasy for another subset of 20-something males though, no question about that  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 01 2019 00:43 Aocowns wrote: some people really like the scheming self serving smart people, they're a common archetype that make interesting things happen at the very least, and they're usually a "cooler" villain than other villain archetypes and idk about others but im being weirdly defensive because you said something initially weirdly stupid. Took a long time and quite some moving of goal posts until you said something remotely defendable imo I think you have me confused with another poster. I just said Littlefinger had a small amount of power and I was never impressed with him or his plans. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On May 01 2019 00:14 VHbb wrote: After the 2nd time watching last episode I am more convinced that we will know something about Bran controlling the crows in the midst of the battle during next episode.. it looks to strange otherwise I somehow doubt it. I think they're going to push Bran as a "neutral observer", and that his entire role during the battle was to watch and know what was happening. Even though he's undoubtedly one of the most powerful beings in Westeros right now (especially when he could probably Warg a Dragon if he needed to), they're going to sideline him for handwavey reasons now that the Night King is gone. I'd bet on that. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18747 Posts
Tons of sidestories and sidecharacters were omitted from the books and we still had WAY TOO MANY characters in the series. Thats why every knowledgeable book reading person knows that GRRM will never be able to finish his series. Or if he does it will require at least 5 more books. | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On May 01 2019 00:48 Plansix wrote: I think you have me confused with another poster. I just said Littlefinger had a small amount of power and I was never impressed with him or his plans. the thing you said that started all this was "Littlefinger was a dude who thought he had a plan to gain power in the system, but only managed to create chaos and never obtained much. His main talent was avoiding being murdered better than most people who are into betrayal." that went to "well he did obtain much but he didnt have power".("So he was a wealthy merchant who manipulated a young lord to do what he wants from time to time? And hangs out with a young Lady to justify his existence at anyone's house") to "he obtained much given he had nothing and he did have some power but it wasnt real power like literal kings and people in line of succession, and his position in the power hierarchy was fragile". ("I never saw him as a master mind or anything of the sort. He was a viper, sure. But he was also high on his own supply, being his faith in how smart he was. He got a little power and assumed he could get more and more by doing the same thing. But there was never a doubt that the moment someone like Tywin ever thought Littlefinger was a problem, Littlefinger would be dead or dealt with. He is someone that could manipulate people who had access to the levers of power, but never had any power himself to resist those people if they turned against him.") at some point you literally said "I have doubts Littlefinger was ever going to gain more power beyond the small amount he obtained by manipulating children with gifts and marrying above his station. " Yes, im pretty sure im not confusing you with someone else, and yes, your statements needed a lot of fleshing out and a bit of moving goal posts before it was a defendable statement | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On May 01 2019 01:00 VHbb wrote: I doubt Bran can warg into a dragon He can warg into a Direwolf, and I would put their intelligence on similar levels. | ||
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